OPP officer killed in shooting near Hagersville, Ont.; 2 suspects in custody

Tecumsehsbones

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Amid a wave of random violent attacks committed by repeat offenders on bail, the Liberals have finally introduced their much-awaited plan to cut down on Canada’s crisis of so-called “catch-and-release” justice.

While police organizations have welcomed the reforms as a concrete step to rein in “repeat violent offenders,” Conservatives and legal critics are saying it will do shockingly little to reform a justice system that remains tilted towards chronic releases of violent offenders.

Bill C-48 was introduced Tuesday by Justice Minister David Lametti, who touted it as a “targeted” measure “to strengthen our bail system.”

It’s only eight pages, and its main provision is the expansion of a “reverse onus” on bail for suspects charged with a violent crime.

Under normal circumstances, it’s up to prosecutors to show whether a suspect charged with a crime should be kept in pre-trial detention, rather than being released on bail with a court date.

But in extreme cases — such as homicide — the onus is reversed, and it’s suddenly up to the accused to argue why they deserve freedom.

What C-48 does is to apply a reverse onus to suspects charged with a violent offence who have previously been convicted of another violent offence “within the last five years.”

Police — who have been at the forefront of pushing for bail reform — expressed appreciation for C-48. In a joint statement with other law enforcement representatives, Canadian Police Association President Tom Stamatakis called the bill “common-sense legislation that responds to the concerns our members raised.”

The statement was clear that they weren’t seeking an across-the-board toughening of bail. Rather, they simply wanted a mechanism to deal with the “small number of repeat violent offenders who commit a disproportionate number of offences.”

Bill C-48 is very specific about what it considers “violence.”

To qualify for the new reverse onus provision, a suspect has to be charged with a crime involving “violence and the use of a weapon,” and their record over the last five years must also include a conviction for “violence and the use of a weapon.”

Thus, it doesn’t affect anyone who prefers to commit violent crime with their hands. It’s also irrelevant in cases of chronic property crime.

The only exception would be in cases where someone awaiting domestic abuse charges is again arrested for domestic abuse: That scenario will warrant a “reverse onus” for bail as per C-48, even if the suspect didn’t use a weapon.

The bill also does nothing to reverse a measure – first passed by the Liberals in 2018 — that requires judges to prioritize bail for any suspect coming from a historically “marginalized” community.
Makes sense. Maybe they should go further. At a minimum, if you're charged with a violent crime while on bail, you shouldn't get bail for that one.

You realize that more jails and more courts are going to need to be funded, right?
 

Ron in Regina

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Makes sense. Maybe they should go further. At a minimum, if you're charged with a violent crime while on bail, you shouldn't get bail for that one.

You realize that more jails and more courts are going to need to be funded, right?
Would we actually be saving money in the long run though? Lower crime rate? Less police need it if less catch and release? Less cost to individuals via crime?

This Bill C-48 is super specific to a very small demographic… so I don’t think it’s gonna make much difference in cost anyway… but it’s a start?
 

Tecumsehsbones

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Would we actually be saving money in the long run though? Lower crime rate? Less police need it if less catch and release? Less cost to individuals via crime?

This Bill C-48 is super specific to a very small demographic… so I don’t think it’s gonna make much difference in cost anyway… but it’s a start?
Depends on what you mean by "we" saving money. The whole Canadian economy? Probably. But specifically, without offsetting reductions, the Canadian governmental budgets would have to be larger. This stuff don't come free. And shutting down a jail or a court, or shrinking a police department, is damn near impossible.

I think a better question would be "Is it worth it?" And I'd say yes, no question.

I agree C-48 is a start. I hope they don't lose momentum.
 
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Ron in Regina

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Depends on what you mean by "we" saving money. The whole Canadian economy? Probably. But specifically, without offsetting reductions, the Canadian governmental budgets would have to be larger. This stuff don't come free. And shutting down a jail or a court, or shrinking a police department, is damn near impossible.

I think a better question would be "Is it worth it?" And I'd say yes, no question.

I agree C-48 is a start. I hope they don't lose momentum.
This specific bill, though, is so super specific. It deals specifically with violence with a weapon, and only against offenders that have also been previously charged with violence with a weapon within the last five years.

The examples that the reporter and this Poilievre were debating were the handful of people in Vancouver that’re “averaging” 150 convictions/head last year alone. I’m assuming they are not the ones that this bill C48 is targeting.
But again, after eight years, so far, it is a start.
 

Tecumsehsbones

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This specific bill, though, is so super specific. It deals specifically with violence with a weapon, and only against offenders that have also been previously charged with violence with a weapon within the last five years.

The examples that the reporter and this Poilievre were debating were the handful of people in Vancouver that’re “averaging” 150 convictions/head last year alone. I’m assuming they are not the ones that this bill C48 is targeting.
But again, after eight years, so far, it is a start.
I think the focus on violence with weapons is actually a good thing. And five years is a good timeframe. The "average" thing was obviously carefully selected for political purposes.

For non-violent crimes I wouldn't give prison at all. Closely supervised house arrest, mandatory work, and mandatory restitution is my preferred option.

Petros was not entirely wrong to say 5% of the criminals commit a huge, disproportionate chunk of the crime. We say it's 7%. That's what our "three strikes and you're out" laws were aimed at, but missed. The idea was three convictions and you die in prison. Instead of specifying violence with a weapon, however, we said felonies, and sent one-time violent criminals up for highly technical and non-violent second and third felonies.
 
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Dixie Cup

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Wood: “You talk about bail; the crime has already happened – alleged crime has already happened – so how can you attribute bail to this increase in crime and not the more supportive measures to prevent the crime in the first base? They’ve already allegedly committed the crime.”

Poilievre laughed: “They are committing crimes on bail. That is the problem. The problem is I give you an example in Vancouver, the same 40 offenders were arrested 6,000 times. In a year. That is 150 arrests per offender per year. Why? Because there are arrested in the morning, then released on bail by noon, they re-offend, they are back in jail by two in the afternoon and then they released by the evening so that they can commit their final grant before they go to bed.”

Wood: “Is this not a failure of this system is something (does not support) people who have committed crimes, who has gone to jail, served their sentences, and then they’re committing another crime so is this not a failure of things like social services and support for people have committed crimes?”

Poilievre: “Are you serious?”

Wood: “I am asking a question.”

Poilievre: “Come on are you serious? Come on. No excuse me, let me answer your question. Are you honestly saying that it’s society’s fault if a repeat violent offender commits 60 or 70 offences. I think that a criminal is to blame for his own actions. He is personally responsible. We are not talking about some kid who made one mistake when he was 19. We are talking about people who do 60, 70 violent offences. Because they are criminals.”

Wood: “But why are there criminals?”

Poilievre: “Because they do crime.”

Wood: “Why do they do crime?”

Poilievre: “Because we let them out early on bail. I think you should solve the riddle here.”

Wood: “Because they got let out early on bail they then commit the crime?”

Poilievre: “That’s right. That’s what all the experts agree is the cause of the crime.”

Wood: “Jail not bail, as you say, if they stayed in jail they would then not commit crimes?”

Poilievre: “Because they would be in jail so they couldn’t commit crime.”

Wood: “When they go out to the end of the sentence are they crime free?”

Poilievre: “Well we can’t guarantee that will what we can guarantee is that the period when they are behind bars they cannot commit crime.”
Although it’s an issue that’s been championed hard by the Conservative opposition benches, everyone from police departments to mayors to a unanimous declaration by all 13 provincial premiers have been sounding the alarm for months on what’s often called Canada’s “catch and release” bail system.

…& then this is last month in Parliament:
Why are the Liberals always bringing up the U.S - does he not realize he's in Canada & you can't compare them.
 

Dixie Cup

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Wood: “You talk about bail; the crime has already happened – alleged crime has already happened – so how can you attribute bail to this increase in crime and not the more supportive measures to prevent the crime in the first base? They’ve already allegedly committed the crime.”

Poilievre laughed: “They are committing crimes on bail. That is the problem. The problem is I give you an example in Vancouver, the same 40 offenders were arrested 6,000 times. In a year. That is 150 arrests per offender per year. Why? Because there are arrested in the morning, then released on bail by noon, they re-offend, they are back in jail by two in the afternoon and then they released by the evening so that they can commit their final grant before they go to bed.”

Wood: “Is this not a failure of this system is something (does not support) people who have committed crimes, who has gone to jail, served their sentences, and then they’re committing another crime so is this not a failure of things like social services and support for people have committed crimes?”

Poilievre: “Are you serious?”

Wood: “I am asking a question.”

Poilievre: “Come on are you serious? Come on. No excuse me, let me answer your question. Are you honestly saying that it’s society’s fault if a repeat violent offender commits 60 or 70 offences. I think that a criminal is to blame for his own actions. He is personally responsible. We are not talking about some kid who made one mistake when he was 19. We are talking about people who do 60, 70 violent offences. Because they are criminals.”

Wood: “But why are there criminals?”

Poilievre: “Because they do crime.”

Wood: “Why do they do crime?”

Poilievre: “Because we let them out early on bail. I think you should solve the riddle here.”

Wood: “Because they got let out early on bail they then commit the crime?”

Poilievre: “That’s right. That’s what all the experts agree is the cause of the crime.”

Wood: “Jail not bail, as you say, if they stayed in jail they would then not commit crimes?”

Poilievre: “Because they would be in jail so they couldn’t commit crime.”

Wood: “When they go out to the end of the sentence are they crime free?”

Poilievre: “Well we can’t guarantee that will what we can guarantee is that the period when they are behind bars they cannot commit crime.”
Although it’s an issue that’s been championed hard by the Conservative opposition benches, everyone from police departments to mayors to a unanimous declaration by all 13 provincial premiers have been sounding the alarm for months on what’s often called Canada’s “catch and release” bail system.

…& then this is last month in Parliament:
We don't have a couple years. Climate change is causing the spike in crime. The News world order said it could be this year we hit 1.5C above the coldestest industrial era in 13000 years.
More fear mongering. It's disgusting.
 

petros

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More fear mongering. It's disgusting.
Every piece of climate propanganda contains a caveat. Most common are "Scientists say", "on record", "Govt funded ____ say (includes grant reliant academia or foundation)", "green jobs" and more.

Gone are the statements such as "peer reviewed", "consensus", "greenhouse effect", "anthropological global warming (includes land use and denudation)", "albedo" etc.

All we hear now is demonization of this and that but never issues that directly impact us all.

Demonizing is purely a marketing ploy

Demonization of the paper bag and charcoal barbeques brought us propane and paraffin bags to save the rainforest. Thank God the Koch bros and 80% tree frog content coffee saved the rainforest and ozone layer. Where are we now? Back to recycled paper bags and sustainably sourced charcoal. Why? Marketing.

Hydrogen from hydrofossils will save the day.
 
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Ron in Regina

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I think the focus on violence with weapons is actually a good thing. And five years is a good timeframe. The "average" thing was obviously carefully selected for political purposes.
What about “habitual” offenders? What if, on at least 3 separate occasions in a 12 month period, someone is able to rack up a minimum of…let’s say 25 charges…while out on bail or under restrictions (probation), should there be a separate incentive to not commit crime #26 in that same 12 month period?
For non-violent crimes I wouldn't give prison at all. Closely supervised house arrest, mandatory work, and mandatory restitution is my preferred option.
Interesting if actually applied & enforced, but it’s not now, so I’m doubtful it will in the future if more people are on it.
Petros was not entirely wrong to say 5% of the criminals commit a huge, disproportionate chunk of the crime. We say it's 7%. That's what our "three strikes and you're out" laws were aimed at, but missed. The idea was three convictions and you die in prison. Instead of specifying violence with a weapon, however, we said felonies, and sent one-time violent criminals up for highly technical and non-violent second and third felonies.
We break things up differently up here between “Provincial” & “Federal” (loosely akin to your Felony term).

The difference between a federal offence and a provincial offence is significant. Federal offences as defined by the Criminal Code of Canada are more serious charges that carry more serious, life-changing consequences for an accused upon conviction. Provincial offences – while still serious – generally come with more minor penalties.

We also have two different prison systems. Provincial (2yrs Less a day) or Federal (2yrs Plus a day). I’ve no idea where someone goes if they’re sentenced to two years….& now that I think of it, I don’t think I’ve ever heard of anybody ever being sentenced to two years in Canada, as it’s always either Plus or Minus a day.
 

Tecumsehsbones

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What about “habitual” offenders? What if, on at least 3 separate occasions in a 12 month period, someone is able to rack up a minimum of…let’s say 25 charges…while out on bail or under restrictions (probation), should there be a separate incentive to not commit crime #26 in that same 12 month period?

Interesting if actually applied & enforced, but it’s not now, so I’m doubtful it will in the future if more people are on it.

We break things up differently up here between “Provincial” & “Federal” (loosely akin to your Felony term).

The difference between a federal offence and a provincial offence is significant. Federal offences as defined by the Criminal Code of Canada are more serious charges that carry more serious, life-changing consequences for an accused upon conviction. Provincial offences – while still serious – generally come with more minor penalties.

We also have two different prison systems. Provincial (2yrs Less a day) or Federal (2yrs Plus a day). I’ve no idea where someone goes if they’re sentenced to two years….& now that I think of it, I don’t think I’ve ever heard of anybody ever being sentenced to two years in Canada, as it’s always either Plus or Minus a day.
Interesting info. For us, a felony is any crime whose maximum punishment is a year or more incarcerated, regardless of State or Federal. In those states with "three strikes and you're out" laws, you can't get "habitual" beyond three convictions, unless you do your habitual crimes in prison. You'll never get out.

We also have state and Federal prisons, but that's all based on whether the crime is state or Federal. Most violent crimes are state matters, unless committed on Federal land or against Federal employees.

Most of our "ordinary" crimes, buglary, homicide, rape, robbery, arson, etc. are state crimes. There is no general Federal law against murder, for example.
 
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Taxslave2

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Would we actually be saving money in the long run though? Lower crime rate? Less police need it if less catch and release? Less cost to individuals via crime?

This Bill C-48 is super specific to a very small demographic… so I don’t think it’s gonna make much difference in cost anyway… but it’s a start?
Add in extra insurance costs for everyone. The amount of lost time for everyone that has to deal with the cops, insurance companies. Maybe physical and psychological damage as well dealing with lowlifes that don't deserve to share our oxygen supply, and the cost of incarceration isn't that bad. They don't have to be club fed spots either. Maybe contract out our jails to Mexico.
 
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Dixie Cup

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Add in extra insurance costs for everyone. The amount of lost time for everyone that has to deal with the cops, insurance companies. Maybe physical and psychological damage as well dealing with lowlifes that don't deserve to share our oxygen supply, and the cost of incarceration isn't that bad. They don't have to be club fed spots either. Maybe contract out our jails to Mexico.
Maybe if we did ship them off to Mexico there'd be less crime, so you may have a good idea LOL
 
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Dixie Cup

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So the upshot of all this is Liberals are soft on crime for some reason known only to themselves. And, of course the long suffering taxpayer is on the hook for not only the costs of the joke of a just us system, but also for the costs of stolen articles and damages done and resulting rise in insurance costs.
Trudeau taking advice from Biden as the U.S. has the same issue which is why it's so dangerous especially in Liberal cities in the U.S.
 
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