Ontarians Urged To "Voluntarily" Pay More Taxes To Cut Province's Debt

captain morgan

Hall of Fame Member
Mar 28, 2009
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A Mouse Once Bit My Sister
All Canadian gvts are not to be trusted with the public's money.

Just so happens that Mr. Wynne has been particularly disrespectful in her willingness to mortgage the futures of the next 5 generations in order to pursue her personal agenda
 

White_Unifier

Senate Member
Feb 21, 2017
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All Canadian gvts are not to be trusted with the public's money.

Just so happens that Mr. Wynne has been particularly disrespectful in her willingness to mortgage the futures of the next 5 generations in order to pursue her personal agenda

I normally would not recommend that a government declare bankruptcy, but this is a situation where it might make sense. It would allow the government to negotiate a favourable repayment plan and, better yet, would make no one want to lend to the government. In short, it would force the government to finally spend responsibly. It certainly would have its cons, but at this point, with the debt as high as it is, the pros might outweigh the cons at this point.
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
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RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
Historically speaking it has been determined that if you hang a failed government the next government is more efficient. It,s rough for a while but once you get them all it begins to run as per the design

Why doesn't the government volunteer to pay our debts?
:)

It,s too early in this debt cycle and the Bankers would rather wait a bit untill the soil is offered in ransome


or the children, if you catch them
 

captain morgan

Hall of Fame Member
Mar 28, 2009
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I normally would not recommend that a government declare bankruptcy, but this is a situation where it might make sense. It would allow the government to negotiate a favourable repayment plan and, better yet, would make no one want to lend to the government. In short, it would force the government to finally spend responsibly. It certainly would have its cons, but at this point, with the debt as high as it is, the pros might outweigh the cons at this point.

You do understand that in the course of normal bankruptcy proceedings, all of the assets of the debtor (read Province of Ontario) are liquidated in order to pay the creditors, right?
 

pgs

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 29, 2008
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You do understand that in the course of normal bankruptcy proceedings, all of the assets of the debtor (read Province of Ontario) are liquidated in order to pay the creditors, right?
Does that include the teachers pension fund ?
 

OpposingDigit

Electoral Member
Aug 27, 2017
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I think that the best move would be "Ontarians Urged To "Voluntarily" vote in such a manner so as to deny all parties a majority government.

It is "Majority Governments" which allow a government to become quite arrogant.

Political Parties Rule like a monarchy when given controlling power.
 

White_Unifier

Senate Member
Feb 21, 2017
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You do understand that in the course of normal bankruptcy proceedings, all of the assets of the debtor (read Province of Ontario) are liquidated in order to pay the creditors, right?

Exactly where a court would draw the line between the government's essential assets and non-essential, I'm not sure. Parliament, the courts, and law enforcement would probably remain off-limits whereas any crown corporation would certainly need to be sold off. Roads? Sidewalks? I guess it would be up to a court to decide where precisely to draw that line.
 

captain morgan

Hall of Fame Member
Mar 28, 2009
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Exactly where a court would draw the line between the government's essential assets and non-essential, I'm not sure. Parliament, the courts, and law enforcement would probably remain off-limits whereas any crown corporation would certainly need to be sold off. Roads? Sidewalks? I guess it would be up to a court to decide where precisely to draw that line.

Unless the debt agreement/contract distinguished between essential and non-essential assets, everything could conceivably assessed a value and part of the deal

That said, the practice would not be to foreclose on the local firehall and the legislature building, but a port, airport, public utility?.. I could see those on the table
 

White_Unifier

Senate Member
Feb 21, 2017
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Unless the debt agreement/contract distinguished between essential and non-essential assets, everything could conceivably assessed a value and part of the deal

That said, the practice would not be to foreclose on the local firehall and the legislature building, but a port, airport, public utility?.. I could see those on the table

A government is not a private enterprise so I have no doubt that whether a contract specified it or not, a court would still recognize the unique status of a government. So you're right that things like the legislature building and such would undoubtedly be off the table. That said, you're correct that a port, an airport, or a public utility might need to be sold off. Of course the court would need to take public interest into consideration too. For example, a port could be seen as a natural monopoly. But then a gain, a judge could conclude that while that may be the case, the government could still sell it off and then just regulate it.

They are also pushing a gold/petroleum exchange as well.

Potentially fewer major intl transactions with USD

Selling off US dollars could both hurt and benefit the US. It lowers the value of the US dollar and so drives US exports. On the other hand, it can also drive US inflation. Americans could find their foreign travel getting really expensive if ever the US dollar started getting dumped en mass. If the US is lucky, other countries will dump the US dollar only gradually over time so as to give the US time to adapt.
 

captain morgan

Hall of Fame Member
Mar 28, 2009
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A government is not a private enterprise so I have no doubt that whether a contract specified it or not, a court would still recognize the unique status of a government. So you're right that things like the legislature building and such would undoubtedly be off the table. That said, you're correct that a port, an airport, or a public utility might need to be sold off. Of course the court would need to take public interest into consideration too. For example, a port could be seen as a natural monopoly. But then a gain, a judge could conclude that while that may be the case, the government could still sell it off and then just regulate it.

Great, the Court recognizes that they are a gvt.

The fact remains, if they collateralize (public) assets, they are on the block.

Greece is a good example on this


Selling off US dollars could both hurt and benefit the US. It lowers the value of the US dollar and so drives US exports. On the other hand, it can also drive US inflation. Americans could find their foreign travel getting really expensive if ever the US dollar started getting dumped en mass. If the US is lucky, other countries will dump the US dollar only gradually over time so as to give the US time to adapt.

The USD has a lot of power today for a number of reasons, one of which is that there is enough currency in play, it's widely accepted and it's recognized internationally as the currency to do business in.

The problem relative to a gold/petroleum exchange is that it reduces the need for USDs for those nations seeking to trade in the Exchange and at that point, all those USDs floating around will have a potential effect of deflating the value (as you mentioned).

The US being a major importer of goods (the largest) will have less buying power and the relative cost of living will increase until such time that it makes economic sense for the US to become a producer of goods to service their domestic market... That will take time and during this period, the general population will take somewhat of a hit.

In the end, I believe that the Chinese and Russians (and probably other nations) are looking to battle the US economy by virtue of finding alternatives to USDs
 

Retired_Can_Soldier

The End of the Dog is Coming!
Mar 19, 2006
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Lest we forget ... It was the Rae NDP that brought in the Casinos, Slots and everything beyond 6/49 and Super 7. They may as well have given out free heroin, then sold it to the addicts for massive profits.

I wonder how many thousands of lives have been ruined by that NDP fiscal "creativity"?

I'd never carry water for the NDP. but any thousands of lives ruined by gambling is done so by weak and stupid people.
 

OpposingDigit

Electoral Member
Aug 27, 2017
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When Push Comes To Shove ..... There Will Be A Bail-In ....

It Can Happen Here: The Confiscation Scheme Planned for US and UK Depositors
By Ellen Brown
March 28, 2013
http://webofdebt.wordpress.com/2013...ation-scheme-planned-for-us-and-uk-depositors

Confiscating the customer deposits in Cyprus banks, it seems, was not a one-off, desperate idea of a few Eurozone “troika” officials scrambling to salvage their balance sheets. A joint paper by the US Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation and the Bank of England dated December 10, 2012, shows that these plans have been long in the making; that they originated with the G20 Financial Stability Board in Basel, Switzerland; and that the result will be to deliver clear title to the banks of depositor funds.

It begins by explaining that the 2008 banking crisis has made it clear that some other way besides taxpayer bailouts is needed to maintain “financial stability.” Evidently anticipating that the next financial collapse will be on a grander scale than either the taxpayers or Congress is willing to underwrite, the authors state:

"An efficient path for returning the sound operations of the G-SIFI to the private sector would be provided by exchanging or converting a sufficient amount of the unsecured debt from the original creditors of the failed company [meaning the depositors] into equity [or stock]. In the U.S., the new equity would become capital in one or more newly formed operating entities. In the U.K., the same approach could be used, or the equity could be used to recapitalize the failing financial company itself—thus, the highest layer of surviving bailed-in creditors would become the owners of the resolved firm. In either country, the new equity holders would take on the corresponding risk of being shareholders in a financial institution."

No exception is indicated for “insured deposits” in the U.S., meaning those under $250,000, the deposits we thought were protected by FDIC insurance. This can hardly be an oversight, since it is the FDIC that is issuing the directive. The FDIC is an insurance company funded by premiums paid by private banks. The directive is called a “resolution process,” defined elsewhere as a plan that “would be triggered in the event of the failure of an insurer . . . .”
(PDF Document)
http://www.ey.com/Publication/vwLUA...ng/$FILE/Recovery_and_resolution_planning.pdf

"In the US, depositors have actually been put in a worse position than Cyprus deposit-holders, at least if they are at the big banks that play in the derivatives casino. The regulators have turned a blind eye as banks use their depositaries to fund derivatives exposures. And as bad as that is, the depositors, unlike their Cypriot confreres, aren’t even senior creditors. Remember Lehman? When the investment bank failed, unsecured creditors (and remember, depositors are unsecured creditors) got eight cents on the dollar. One big reason was that derivatives counterparties require collateral for any exposures, meaning they are secured creditors. The 2005 bankruptcy reforms made derivatives counterparties senior to unsecured lenders."
http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2013...o-permit-bailouts-deregulate-derivatives.html

Phoenix Rising
Historically, governments have responded to financial crisis by modifying their financial systems:
--
"Massive credit collapses that erase very large sums of notional wealth and impact the global economy are hardly a new phenomenon . . . but one thing that has never happened as a result of any of them is the sort of self-feeding, irrevocable plunge into the abyss that current fast-crash theories require."
"The reason for this is that credit is merely one way by which a society manages the distribution of goods and services. . . . A credit collapse . . . doesn’t make the energy, raw materials, and labor vanish into some fiscal equivalent of a black hole; they’re all still there, in whatever quantities they were before the credit collapse, and all that’s needed is some new way to allocate them to the production of goods and services."
"This, in turn, governments promptly provide. In 1933, for example, faced with the most severe credit collapse in American history, Franklin Roosevelt temporarily nationalized the entire US banking system, seized nearly all the privately held gold in the country, unilaterally changed the national debt from “payable in gold” to “payable in Federal Reserve notes” (which amounted to a technical default), and launched a series of other emergency measures. The credit collapse came to a screeching halt, famously, in less than a hundred days. Other nations facing the same crisis took equally drastic measures, with similar results. . . ."
"Faced with a severe crisis, governments can slap on wage and price controls, freeze currency exchanges, impose rationing, raise trade barriers, default on their debts, nationalize whole industries, issue new currencies, allocate goods and services by fiat, and impose martial law to make sure the new economic rules are followed to the letter, if necessary, at gunpoint. Again, these aren’t theoretical possibilities; every one of them has actually been used by more than one government faced by a major economic crisis in the last century and a half."
"That historical review is grounds for optimism, but confiscation of assets and enforcement at gunpoint are still not the most desirable outcomes. Better would be to have an alternative system in place and ready to implement before the boom drops."

--John Michael Greer, American Delusionalism, or Why History Matters, March 19, 2014--
http://thearchdruidreport.blogspot.ca/2014/03/american-delusionalism-or-why-history.html