Only in Saskatchewan

taxslave

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 25, 2008
36,362
4,340
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Vancouver Island
Yeah, right! Why can't YOU pick an alternative? Like not drink to that point, take a bus, take a taxi, drink within walking distance of home!

Walking distance of home is..... my shop. No busses and no taxis here. Nearest bar is about 6k. But they do have a driver on weekends now. Not sure about week nights. Apparently it is now the only way they can afford to stay open. Many of the chronic drunks still drive though, license or not.
 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
75,301
548
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Vernon, B.C.
I do. My alternative is to not drink more than one unless I am at home or staying in a hotel. A lot of the time I don't even have one. If I am in a social setting where there is peer pressure to have a few like a christmas party a glass of cola with a lime in it and everyone thinks you are drinking.

Besides, it is way more fun to watch everyone else get drunk and make fools of themselves than to join in.

Yep, I'm generally quite happy with a cup of coffee. (Used to drink enough for me and all my relatives and neighbours) :lol:

Walking distance of home is..... my shop. No busses and no taxis here. Nearest bar is about 6k. But they do have a driver on weekends now. Not sure about week nights. Apparently it is now the only way they can afford to stay open. Many of the chronic drunks still drive though, license or not.

Guys have been known to drink in their shop. :lol:
 

PoliticalNick

The Troll Bashing Troll
Mar 8, 2011
7,940
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Edson, AB
Even if it's a reverse onus for the burden of proof, and I'm not arguing that it isn't, it would, in my mind, be the lessor of two (potential) evils. There are many areas of the law that could be construed as to violate individual rights but are considered exceptions that are reasonable for the greater public good. I firmly believe that this is one of those areas.

While I am very much opposed to drunk driving I am also a strict constitutionalist. That means I cannot support any 'reverse onus' laws or any law that violates our charter rights. Sorry but I don't care how emotionally charged an issue is there is NO lawful reason to violate individual rights even if it is seen as being for the greater good. The charter is there to prevent our law from being influenced by emotions.
 

Niflmir

A modern nomad
Dec 18, 2006
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Leiden, the Netherlands
While I am very much opposed to drunk driving I am also a strict constitutionalist. That means I cannot support any 'reverse onus' laws or any law that violates our charter rights. Sorry but I don't care how emotionally charged an issue is there is NO lawful reason to violate individual rights even if it is seen as being for the greater good. The charter is there to prevent our law from being influenced by emotions.

You apparently haven't read the very first section of our constitution...

I get SLM's greater point: if you are going out drinking in the first place, plan ahead so that you do not end up sleeping in your vehicle. If I recall correctly, even being in the back seat isn't enough if the keys are in the ignition. Bartenders are already liable for giving people too much to drink, they should call cabs for people before the official closing time so that a person kicked out of the bar doesn't need to make the choice between chancing a CCUI (care and control under the influence, lol) and freezing.

One of the many reasons I don't even consider purchasing a vehicle. I like to drink when I feel like it, not when I plan for it. Biking drunk is in another thread, I believe.
 

JamesBondo

House Member
Mar 3, 2012
4,158
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The piece that I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around is this notion that people so intoxicated that they need to sleep it off are being socially conscious....

I agree that 'socially conscious' was a stretched choice of words, I wish to retract that choice of words.

However, if we can hold an intoxicated person legally responsible for driving, we ought to also give them credit when they don't drive.

To me, if we can label an intoxicated person behind the wheel as 'driving', then we might want to consider that the drunk in the back seat actually spent a fraction of a second, considered driving, and just like a sober person that may be too fatigued to drive, he climbed into the back seat to sleep.

And, this raises another similar point. Sleeping it off in the back seat is not illegal for other sober drivers that have a valid reason for not driving, ie fatigue. Why would we want to make it into a bad or lowly thing for drunks to do?

Let's consider a hypothetical that doesn't have the emotionally charged issue of DUI.

Do we charge a professional driver for 'driving while fatigued' if we find them sleeping it off in the back, with the keys in their pocket? But if we find him draped over his steering wheel, I say throw the book at him.
 

PoliticalNick

The Troll Bashing Troll
Mar 8, 2011
7,940
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Edson, AB
Do we charge a professional driver for 'driving while fatigued' if we find them sleeping it off in the back, with the keys in their pocket? But if we find him draped over his steering wheel, I say throw the book at him.

FYI - I am a professional driver and it is NOT illegal for me to be pulled over and sleeping over the wheel with the truck running if I am fatigued. I have a sleeper so I don't lay on the wheel but I know guys with day-cabs that do.
 

CDNBear

Custom Troll
Sep 24, 2006
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Ontario
I don't think the issue is in enforcement. There of plenty of DUI cases in the courts. The problem, and I support MADD and other groups on this, is in the punishments. There is no teeth in the law. Too many still get a slap on the wrist, a few months suspension and a meaningless fine. If we were to toss these people in jail for 6 months to a year and take their license for 1-2 years for the first offense drunk driving would reduce in a hurry.
That would be great if I was talking about sentencing.

Since you aren't very bright, and not likely to figure out on your own what the line of discussion was, we were discussing the actions of the Police, not the Courts.
 

PoliticalNick

The Troll Bashing Troll
Mar 8, 2011
7,940
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Edson, AB
That would be great if I was talking about sentencing.

Since you aren't very bright, and not likely to figure out on your own what the line of discussion was, we were discussing the actions of the Police, not the Courts.

I know you are not quite at the IQ level to understand the police actions and court actions are interrelated so don't worry your petit, empty head about it.
 

SLM

The Velvet Hammer
Mar 5, 2011
29,151
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London, Ontario
While I am very much opposed to drunk driving I am also a strict constitutionalist. That means I cannot support any 'reverse onus' laws or any law that violates our charter rights. Sorry but I don't care how emotionally charged an issue is there is NO lawful reason to violate individual rights even if it is seen as being for the greater good. The charter is there to prevent our law from being influenced by emotions.

So it's okay if there is grey area when police are deciding whether to lay charges for a drunk passed out in his vehicle, but not okay to have grey area within the law itself? Unless I'm completely misunderstanding, I think that is a contradiction.

What I'm getting at is that there is no way to make a law, any law be it constitutional or criminal, that can absolutely fit every conceivable circumstance. I'd even go so far as to say that it's impossible to do so. That's why there always needs to be reasonable exceptions, ie the grey areas, in every area of law. They should be very limited and not open to interpretation by law enforcement, it should be relegated to the courts. They are the supreme authority on the law anyway.

I agree that 'socially conscious' was a stretched choice of words, I wish to retract that choice of words.

However, if we can hold an intoxicated person legally responsible for driving, we ought to also give them credit when they don't drive.

The way I've always looked at holding a person responsible for driving while intoxicated is that we are saying the individual did not do enough while sober to prevent the action from occurring. That and allowing intoxication to be a defense would be a travesty of justice because nothing would prevent someone from becoming drunk prior to the commission of a crime. Not saying that's how the law looks at it, but that's how I look at it.

I'm not even really saying that there aren't individuals that should be credited for not driving, even when they've reached that decision while drunk. They should be credited when they've done that. But that should be in the cold light of day in front of a judge, not late at night by a police officer. Yes the person would be embarrassed, inconvenienced, but I'll bet you they will learn a lesson to always plan ahead and do it better. If you get enough people like that, pretty soon attitudes change. That's what I think we need to be working towards.

But either way, I am not going to blame the police officer for doing his job and following the letter of the law.
 

CDNBear

Custom Troll
Sep 24, 2006
43,839
207
63
Ontario
I know you are not quite at the IQ level to understand the police actions and court actions are interrelated so don't worry your petit, empty head about it.
LOL, the irony aside, I made no mention of them not being so.

Again, in the hopes that you might be able to follow along, the discussion at hand was in regards to enforcement on the streets.

I hope that helps, although I highly doubt it.
 

PoliticalNick

The Troll Bashing Troll
Mar 8, 2011
7,940
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Edson, AB
So it's okay if there is grey area when police are deciding whether to lay charges for a drunk passed out in his vehicle, but not okay to have grey area within the law itself? Unless I'm completely misunderstanding, I think that is a contradiction.
I don't think there is any grey area when it comes to someone who is asleep in the back seat. They are not driving, that is pretty obvious. I think that police should be allowed discretion in proceeding with charges in such a case.

The 'care & control' charge is bogus. I could be passed out drunk on a cot in my garage with car keys in my pocket and fit into 'care and control' because I have the keys. It is a case of being charged with maybe committing a crime in the future.

What I'm getting at is that there is no way to make a law, any law be it constitutional or criminal, that can absolutely fit every conceivable circumstance. I'd even go so far as to say that it's impossible to do so. That's why there always needs to be reasonable exceptions, ie the grey areas, in every area of law. They should be very limited and not open to interpretation by law enforcement, it should be relegated to the courts.
I agree it is nigh impossible to foresee every eventuality and write a law that encompasses all of them. The thing is we give police discretion in many circumstances so why not in the case of somebody sleeping it off in the back seat.

They are the supreme authority on the law anyway.
Actually they are not. The constitution is the supreme law and the courts are bound by it.

The way I've always looked at holding a person responsible for driving while intoxicated is that we are saying the individual did not do enough while sober to prevent the action from occurring.
I certainly cannot disagree with this view.

That and allowing intoxication to be a defense would be a travesty of justice....
Believe it or not 'drunkeness' is an acceptable defense in Canada and a lot of other countries.
Canadian judge accepts 'too drunk' defense - UPI.com

I'm not even really saying that there aren't individuals that should be credited for not driving, even when they've reached that decision while drunk. They should be credited when they've done that. But that should be in the cold light of day in front of a judge, not late at night by a police officer. Yes the person would be embarrassed, inconvenienced, but I'll bet you they will learn a lesson to always plan ahead and do it better. If you get enough people like that, pretty soon attitudes change. That's what I think we need to be working towards.
The problem is that just like the cops cannot always make the right decision neither can the courts. I would hate to see an otherwise upstanding person have their life destroyed because they chose to sleep in the back seat instead of driving.

But either way, I am not going to blame the police officer for doing his job and following the letter of the law.
If they would all only do their job and follow the law. Cops lie and deceive and are trained to try to trick you into giving up your rights. So I guess what I would like is not them having discretion but the 'care & control' charge changed a bit.
 

SLM

The Velvet Hammer
Mar 5, 2011
29,151
5
36
London, Ontario
I don't think there is any grey area when it comes to someone who is asleep in the back seat. They are not driving, that is pretty obvious. I think that police should be allowed discretion in proceeding with charges in such a case.

The 'care & control' charge is bogus. I could be passed out drunk on a cot in my garage with car keys in my pocket and fit into 'care and control' because I have the keys. It is a case of being charged with maybe committing a crime in the future.


I agree it is nigh impossible to foresee every eventuality and write a law that encompasses all of them. The thing is we give police discretion in many circumstances so why not in the case of somebody sleeping it off in the back seat.

I think discretion is something that should always be the exception rather than the rule. It's not bogus if one, just one, drunken fool wakes up from his drunken sleep in the back and seat and decides to drive home. Then there's risk, and that risk could be deadly.

Don't misunderstand me, I think adhering to a principle is laudable. But I don't think we can pat ourselves on the back for upholding someones individual rights if that someone is potentially risking the lives of others. That cannot be the intent of the spirit of the law.


Actually they are not. The constitution is the supreme law and the courts are bound by it.
They interpret it, they apply it's principles and it is not outside of the purview of the SCC to make decisions on reasonable exceptions to it, in certain circumstances.


The problem is that just like the cops cannot always make the right decision neither can the courts. I would hate to see an otherwise upstanding person have their life destroyed because they chose to sleep in the back seat instead of driving.
No the police are not perfect and neither are the courts, I've never argued otherwise and never would. However, if the police are following the law as it is written, they are doing their jobs perfectly.


If they would all only do their job and follow the law. Cops lie and deceive and are trained to try to trick you into giving up your rights. So I guess what I would like is not them having discretion but the 'care & control' charge changed a bit.
That is actually something I can agree with(having less discretion) except I'd like a much clearer and harsher law that might actually do something to change the attitude towards driving after you've been drinking.
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
117,469
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Low Earth Orbit
There is a warning....it's called a 24 hour roadside suspension. There is nothing grey about it and it's clear as a bell.
 

PoliticalNick

The Troll Bashing Troll
Mar 8, 2011
7,940
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Edson, AB
It's not bogus if one, just one, drunken fool wakes up from his drunken sleep in the back and seat and decides to drive home. Then there's risk, and that risk could be deadly.
I do understand your viewpoint but it is still a charge that relates to a possible future crime and I don't see how that is justifiable under any circumstance. You cannot criminalize a potential event because there is no way of knowing if it would ever take place until after the fact. That is a road I won't drive down sober or drunk.

Don't misunderstand me, I think adhering to a principle is laudable. But I don't think we can pat ourselves on the back for upholding someones individual rights if that someone is potentially risking the lives of others. That cannot be the intent of the spirit of the law.
The intent & spirit of the law is bring justice to people for actual events....not maybes.

No the police are not perfect and neither are the courts, I've never argued otherwise and never would. However, if the police are following the law as it is written, they are doing their jobs perfectly.
Half of the cops don't even know the law. Ask one to provide you with a badge and corresponding picture ID (which they are bound to do by law) before giving your name or answering any questions.

That is actually something I can agree with(having less discretion) except I'd like a much clearer and harsher law that might actually do something to change the attitude towards driving after you've been drinking.
I have preached harsher punishments for drunk drivers for a long time. Make it hurt and hurt a lot for a long time.
 

JamesBondo

House Member
Mar 3, 2012
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The 'care & control' charge is bogus. I could be passed out drunk on a cot in my garage with car keys in my pocket and fit into 'care and control' because I have the keys. It is a case of being charged with maybe committing a crime in the future.

well said
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
117,469
14,317
113
Low Earth Orbit
Quote: Originally Posted by PoliticalNick

The 'care & control' charge is bogus. I could be passed out drunk on a cot in my garage with car keys in my pocket and fit into 'care and control' because I have the keys. It is a case of being charged with maybe committing a crime in the future.


well said

You are at home at that point. I listed the legal definition of 'residence" in this thread.
 

JamesBondo

House Member
Mar 3, 2012
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The words in the brackets are mine, the rest is a copy and paste from a canadian university.

The Oakes Test:

First, the objective to be served by the measures limiting a Charter right must be sufficiently important to warrant overriding a constitutionally protected right or freedom.( ie is the objective of lumping back seat sleeper into the same category as DUI sufficiently important enough to warrant overriding the onus laws)

Second, the party invoking s. 1 must show the means to be reasonable and demonstrably justified. This involves a form of proportionality test involving three important components.( ie are there any real data sets out there to suggest that back seat sleepers need to be lumped together with DUIs?)

To begin, the measures must be fair and not arbitrary, carefully designed to achieve the objective in question and rationally connected to that objective.( is it fair and not arbitrary to use the existance of keys to measure a person's intent?)

In addition, the means should impair the right in question as little as possible.

Lastly, there must be a proportionality between the effects of the limiting measure and the objective -- the more severe the deleterious effects of a measure, the more important the objective must be.( will prosecuting and convicting back seat sleepers create proportional outcomes with respect to our DUI incidents and fatalities?)



This test was developed in R. v. Oakes [1986] 1 SCR 103. The Supreme Court modified it several months later in R. v. Edwards Books & Art [1986] 2 SCR 713; in that case the Court addressed idea of 'impairing as little as possible' and allowed more flexibility to allow a reasonable margin rather than a 'precise line'. Since, the SCC has referred to "margin of appreciation" to allow legislature some room to set the level of impairment. (Irwin Tow v. Quebec [1980] 1 SCR 927,
 

Cannuck

Time Out
Feb 2, 2006
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Alberta
What is not known is whether some drunk was intending to drive home and simply fell asleep/passed out before they got the chance to or whether it was just a situation as described where they were attempting to keep warm while waiting for a ride.

According to the OP, the man had a history of being responsible and had called for a cab. I guess some folks would just rather assume the worst.

Apparently so. I have heard many versions of the reasons for leaving the wheel and it has happened in many locations over the years this tale has been around.

Ya and it's usually a "new Canadian" because most racists think immigrants are stupid.

I would be ashamed to make this connection because it smacks of an emotionally charged witch hunt directed at the wrong people.

Welcome to Canadian Content. Home of the emotionally charged witch hunt.

I don't think the issue is in enforcement. There of plenty of DUI cases in the courts. The problem, and I support MADD and other groups on this, is in the punishments. There is no teeth in the law. Too many still get a slap on the wrist, a few months suspension and a meaningless fine. If we were to toss these people in jail for 6 months to a year and take their license for 1-2 years for the first offense drunk driving would reduce in a hurry.

I met this guy years ago who was serving 60 days on weekends for his 14th DUI while waiting to go to trial on his 15th & 16th. Absolutely pathetic to think that breaking the same law 14 times only gets you 60 days.

The whole process is rather silly anyway. I saw a BAC study done in Australia a few years ago that showed accident rates went down initially and then began to increase after 0.10. Apparently, people with only a few in them tend to drive better because they are more cautious/paranoid. Too much time and effort is spent worrying about the 0.05 - 0.08 crowd when they really aren't much of a problem while those double the legal BAC get a slap on the wrist. Like the distracted driving laws, it is the insurance companies setting the agenda.

Which they get..........................they don't go to jail! :smile:

What's this whole thread about them?