New legislation designed to keep mentally ill murderers - Your opinion is???????

[petros]

Legal aid is best of the best?

The top shrinks don't work in Forensics Units.

As it stands, if someone is busted for anything and sent to a Forensics Unit they have to meet the same criteria in their provincial health review as a murder does to get released.

A sentence to a Forensics Unit is indefinite, there is no time limit or minimum.

When you're no longer loopy, you're free to go.

Keep in mind the screw ball on he bus was one of those people who stopped taking meds and went into "discontinuation syndrome". He won't get out because he didn't follow through on treatment prior. He is incurable.

The Dr guy didn't have a case history of loopiness, he deep ended and then snapped out of it which does happen. He is no threat.

You have to be genuine loopy to get a sentence to the forensics units and genuine rehabilitated to get out. You can't fake it.

 

[JLM]

No, what bother's me is that people like the two mentioned in the article will become the poster children for mental illness. The media will perpetuate this, it'll make for good copy. There will be a lot of hand wringing done over our treatment of the mentally ill, using our continued incarceration of subject one and subject two as the main talking points. It will be another black and white, all or nothing issue. And in the meantime the rambling homeless guy on the corner remains on the corner, suffering and ignored.

So no, Vince Li should not ever be allowed to roam freely. Although his illness may be no fault of his own, it has already been established what tragedy can happen when he's allowed to roam freely, unsupervised and unmedicated. There has to be a middle ground between locking someone up for the rest of their lives and simply allowing them to be released. And if this bill is a step towards establishing a balance between the two, then I will support it.

Absolutely, I'd venture to say that 90% of the mentally ill are absolutely harmless as far as other people are concerned. These aren't the folks that Harper was addressing.

The old days saw the criminally insane incarcerated for their protection and the
protection of society. If someone is not capable of being responsible for their actions,
they should not be running loose in the community. A person who is violent is not
subject to the constitution, as criminal activity trumps the constitution.
The real reason Harper does not want to go that far is because the medical costs for
the insane or mentally stressed would drive costs through the roof.
Yes people do have the right to sleep under bridges, but the treatment they have now
received from all governments is appalling.

Absolutely, society is soon going to have to make a big decision, the population is aging, fewer people are working, more people are physically and mentally ill, so the day is fast approaching where we have to make a decision about which ones to save and which ones to let go. Of course it's not just limited this is but will affect all aspects of services to people. As it goes right now the situation is just running us further into debt that we don't have a chance in Hell of ever paying off. Which politician is going to have the guts to make the decision and report it to the people?

 

[Sal]

The old days saw the criminally insane incarcerated for their protection and the
protection of society. If someone is not capable of being responsible for their actions,
they should not be running loose in the community. A person who is violent is not
subject to the constitution, as criminal activity trumps the constitution.
The real reason Harper does not want to go that far is because the medical costs for
the insane or mentally stressed would drive costs through the roof.
Yes people do have the right to sleep under bridges, but the treatment they have now
received from all governments is appalling.

I am confused about what Harper does not want to go for?

Absolutely, society is soon going to have to make a big decision, the population is aging, fewer people are working, more people are physically and mentally ill, so the day is fast approaching where we have to make a decision about which ones to save and which ones to let go. Of course it's not just limited this is but will affect all aspects of services to people. As it goes right now the situation is just running us further into debt that we don't have a chance in Hell of ever paying off. Which politician is going to have the guts to make the decision and report it to the people?

Which situation JLM?

 

[CDNBear]

Really, why?

I consider myself to be for mental health and human rights.

You're not an activist.

They need to be contained for the good of society not out among us. I don't believe they should be tortured or punished as it would do no good. But they can not walk among us for our good and for their good.

Some people think confinement is torture.

So where does that break down? I seriously don't see it?

Extremist ends.

I think there needs to be a balance in cases like the one Harper is highlighting here. There is so much doubt, in so many people's minds, as to his mental state at the time. And his mental state in the future. I don't think it's unfair to take a harder look at cases like his, and find a way to find a balance.

Bingo!

But unfortunately we always miss balance on our way from one extreme to the other.

 

[Sal]

You're not an activist.

Some people think confinement is torture.

Extremist ends.

Bingo!

But unfortunately we always miss balance on our way from one extreme to the other.

Well let's wait a week then and they shall hit the media. I will be really disappointed if people do go all paranoid and extreme about this. We have had too much recent tragedy to the south of us where they have let people out and they either go on a killing spree or they have been caught just prior to it, armed to the teeth.

LOL on extremes...I just posted that in another thread...where did camp middle go?

 

[JLM]

I am confused about what Harper does not want to go for?

Which situation JLM?

The demands on the taxpayer to provide for all the services people demand.

 

[CDNBear]

Well let's wait a week then and they shall hit the media. I will be really disappointed if people do go all paranoid and extreme about this. We have had too much recent tragedy to the south of us where they have let people out and they either go on a killing spree or they have been caught just prior to it, armed to the teeth.

You see, that the problem. We need to address these type of issues without the influence of horrific events.

These issues need to be examined and dealt with while not emotionally impacted.

LOL on extremes...I just posted that in another thread...where did camp middle go?

There are to many extremists. Of which you have never been. I would imagine with your training and chosen field of work, you have learned how to reach realistic compromises, without the detrimental influence of media hyperbole.

 

[Sal]

The demands on the taxpayer to provide for all the services people demand.

Well it's about priority. If we could clean up the bleed from the top and tighten things in where needed, I do believe there would be enough money to provide decent health care (mental and physical) and provide for those who need a hand up.

The waste is appalling and self perpetuating and runs through all parties.

One of the first examples off the top of my head involves budgeting in a government work environment. What genius decided the budget runs thus: here's $100.00 for the year. At the end of the year if you don't spend your $100. I am going to claw it back for next year. However should you spend $110. you mustn't be receiving sufficient funds, therefore I will give you $120. At the end of the year its a race to spend. WTF

Who thinks like that?

 

[SLM]

But unfortunately we always miss balance on our way from one extreme to the other.

That's because, I think, change is pendulum. Change is really not flip flopping, although it may seem that way when we look at the extreme ends of it. But it moves back and forth, like a pendulum swinging. When it swings too far in one direction, we react to that and pull it back. But I like to think that we don't pull it back quite as far as where it initially started out. Maybe it's just the optimist in me, you know, the one that's buried deep, deep down inside, lol.

Balance will come. We, humans, are feeling and thinking animals. We can and do learn. It just takes us a really, really long time with some things.

 

[JLM]

Well it's about priority. If we could clean up the bleed from the top and tighten things in where needed, I do believe there would be enough money to provide decent health care (mental and physical) and provide for those who need a hand up.

The waste is appalling and self perpetuating and runs through all parties.

One of the first examples off the top of my head involves budgeting in a government work environment. What genius decided the budget runs thus: here's $100.00 for the year. At the end of the year if you don't spend your $100. I am going to claw it back for next year. However should you spend $110. you mustn't be receiving sufficient funds, therefore I will give you $120. At the end of the year its a race to spend. WTF

Who thinks like that?

Yep, I think that ties in with what I've been saying all along about reducing the number of bureaucrats. Of course it's never going to happen but we need the likes of Bill Gates and Warren Buffet in charge of Government. But possibly more people with a business degree and fewer with a legal degree could be steered into politics. -

 

[Sal]

You see, that the problem. We need to address these type of issues without the influence of horrific events.

These issues need to be examined and dealt with while not emotionally impacted.

Yes that's an excellent point. We have to strive to be pro-active rather than re-active. Part of the problem lies with motivating people during times of balance/peace/plenitude. They cite the black and white facts and say...not necessary, things are good. And they are right for those times. It's about foresight, I don't know how you convince people of that though unless you have tragedy to back up the need.

There are to many extremists. Of which you have never been. I would imagine with your training and chosen field of work, you have learned how to reach realistic compromises, without the detrimental influence of media hyperbole.

Thanks. I strive to see the larger picture. But really the motivation came from having someone hovering around my a$$ looking for cost accountability because it was their dime. As you will see in another post here, a government environment requires a different head set. And I view government money as MY money. So when I see waste I don't view it as a free for all. But then I am one of the little people. The larger ones get free perks by the thousands and we all know it. Have known for years but have never demanded accountability in a real way. I hope we look back on this financial crisis and say it was a good thing, because we learned fiscal responsibility.

Same with our mentally ill criminally insane. I hope we treat them well, but with certainty until we reach a point in the mental health field where we can cure or control.

 

[SLM]

Same with our mentally ill criminally insane. I hope we treat them well, but with certainty until we reach a point in the mental health field where we can cure or control.

Cure or control. That really says it all. Cure is not within our grasp. We can stifle or mitigate symptoms but we cannot cure. Control though is within our grasp, which is what I think this piece of legislation is all about. It's about working on the definition of who, why and how control needs to be maintained that is in the best interests of society as a whole.

 

[Nuggler]

Ya.

They were called cellars and attics.

Nope, they were and are called Hospitals for the Mentally ill - such as the Brockville Psych, the Whitby Psych, Mimico hospital for the insane, Hamilton psych., Royal Ottawa.

Bedlam used to offer neat public tours to "watch the lunatics".

Hopefully cellars and attics are no longer in use..............as much.


They've had YEARS to come up with a solution re: the release of nutbars who would harm our children, and now the great leader "tears up"............Fuc king crocodile tears you bastard. You who would cancel social programs, hospital beds, public housing. Sick making bible thumping hypocrite.

 

[JLM]

Cure or control. That really says it all. Cure is not within our grasp. We can stifle or mitigate symptoms but we cannot cure. Control though is within our grasp, which is what I think this piece of legislation is all about. It's about working on the definition of who, why and how control needs to be maintained that is in the best interests of society as a whole.

You think in all cases? I've always thought that in many cases when you can find the cause you can find the cure. Are some people not driven nuts from events or from fear?

 

[CDNBear]

Cure or control. That really says it all. Cure is not within our grasp. We can stifle or mitigate symptoms but we cannot cure. Control though is within our grasp, which is what I think this piece of legislation is all about. It's about working on the definition of who, why and how control needs to be maintained that is in the best interests of society as a whole.

But how do you control without violating ones rights?

How do you hold someone in custody, beyond the length of the sentence a sane person would have been subjected to, without violating their Charter rights?

Compound that with the 'control' of medication, how do you force someone to take their meds without violating their rights?

Nope, they were and are called Hospitals for the Mentally ill - such as the Brockville Psych, the Whitby Psych, Mimico hospital for the insane, Hamilton psych., Royal Ottawa.

Bedlam used to offer neat public tours to "watch the lunatics".

Hopefully cellars and attics are no longer in use..............as much.

And from accounts from back in the day, the cellars and attics would have been more palatable.

 

[Nuggler]

But how do you control without violating ones rights?

How do you hold someone in custody, beyond the length of the sentence a sane person would have been subjected to, without violating their Charter rights?

Compound that with the 'control' of medication, how do you force someone to take their meds without violating their rights?

And from accounts from back in the day, the cellars and attics would have been more palatable.

whatever

 

[CDNBear]

I've always thought that in many cases when you can find the cause you can find the cure.

Maybe in some, but chemical control is the usual method of dealing with serious mental health issues.

Are some people not driven nuts from events or from fear?

That's not mental illness.

whatever

Quite...

Bedlam used to offer neat public tours to "watch the lunatics".

Must be nice to be someones side show.

 

[Sal]

Cure or control. That really says it all. Cure is not within our grasp. We can stifle or mitigate symptoms but we cannot cure. Control though is within our grasp, which is what I think this piece of legislation is all about. It's about working on the definition of who, why and how control needs to be maintained that is in the best interests of society as a whole.

yes cure at this point is not within our grasp. Not yet.

And in cases such as these, I am fully supportive of a velvet fist. And that would include me if I were ever to fall into that abyss. From a sane perspective I can say unequivocally ensure I do no harm. I can't think of buddy's name to the south of us, the one that had the huge arsenol but when he wrote to his mother he said "I feel homocide". He knew, he just did not have the capacity to rein himself in. He was let down by an over burdened system. We have to rein them in. It's a moral and ethical obligation.

And that basically is my life philosophy that I strive for anyway...I don't care what people do, just don't cause harm to others in the process.

 

[JLM]

That's not mental illness.

Oh, you learn something new every day!

 

[CDNBear]

Oh, you learn something new every day!

I should have said that's necessarily mental illness.

Especially within the context of the OP