MPs vote to give asylum to U.S. deserters, Tories say no

Praxius

Mass'Debater
Dec 18, 2007
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Halifax, NS & Melbourne, VIC
I'd actually have to disagree that these are noble people.

They took an oath to do whatever they could to protect their country.

But this isn't protecting their country, it's opressing another.... they took an oath and they signed a contract, and that contract isn't just one way. If the government doesn't hold up their end of the bargain, then why should they have to? It's their lives on the line.

If their country is hellbent on a destructive course filled with evil, the correct course of action is certainly not to join in (and fight the war), no contest on that. But its also certainly not to run away and abandon the nation you swore to protect to its fate.

But what if you joined up in the military prior to the war breaking out and you served many years in the past in many other justified conflicts, but now you're thrown into this one and lied to?

You swore you'd jump into a stream of bullets to protect your nation, and now you are fleeing rather than standing up to the government you think is evil?

That makes you a coward and a thief who stole taxpayer money. If you believe the war is unjust and harming America? congratulations, your a US soldier who volunteered and accepted pay to defend the American people, so stand up for them and face the danger of short term imprisonment.

They're not defending anybody in their nation by being over there, that's the entire point.... who are they defending by getting blown up by an IED in a nation which nobody there wants you there in the first place? What about the majority of Americans voicing that they now realize the war is wrong and they want their troops to come home? The people are speaking out, so too are the troops, yet the government which is supposed to do what the people want, is ignoring them and just continually throwing them on the fire.

You want to talk about tax payer's money going to waste, how much is this war putting them in debt? In the Trillions last I heard.... and if they desert and flee to Canada, they're no longer being paid by tax payers now are they? Therefore they're solving the problem.

And while they're in the military, they're not just sitting with their thumbs up their arses doing nothing while getting paid, and their job doesn't alway entail killing people..... to think otherwise is kinda silly.... and to think that they won't go off to Iraq and get killed also means they never done anything else to serve their country prior is also ignorant to what sacrafices they may have already given to their country.

Many of these people in question have already done one or two tours over in Iraq and they no longer want to do it anymore.... so therefore by your logic, those one to two tours they already risked their lives in, are meaningless and they're still chicken sh*ts?

I'll have to remember that one.
 

Praxius

Mass'Debater
Dec 18, 2007
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Colpy

Remind us again of the govenment of the U.S. changing it's requirements to accomodate convicted criminals in joining the game.....

All this "noble" sentiment about honor and duty and responsibility and justice...and any three time loser can do the job.....according to the United States military!

It doesn't take any honor of any kind to dehumanize prisoners and hang them up for a photo-shoot ....whether that's the practice of "terrorists or the United States military.

Don't forget the Mercs they've got over there who somehow escape any major investigations for their actions due to being outside of most jurisdictions in the US (Which is why they're there in the first place..... to do the dirty work that the US Constitution won't allow their "Real" soldiers to do)
 

Zzarchov

House Member
Aug 28, 2006
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Praxius, I think your missing my point.

Im not saying they should go over there and fight the war if they think it is illegal and harming America.

I am saying take a stand IN AMERICA, stand up and say "this is wrong" and not simply run away. That doesn't mean go over seas and shoot people, that means defending your nation by not fleeing to another one when times get tough, but staying to make it better.

If that means you have to sit in prison for 8 months to try and make the country you swore to protect a better place, so be it. If you were willing to die to protect your country before, why are you now unwilling to be put in Jail for 8 months to try and protect it now?

Soldiers swear to protect their country from all threats, foreign AND domestic.
 

MikeyDB

House Member
Jun 9, 2006
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Zzarchov

From other conversations being held in these forums....there appear to be a good many peole who believe that only the individual is suitably equipped to make decisions about "right" and "wrong". But by the same token... if you're exposed as a pacifist and/or a coward....you should be sent to jail.....

Double Standards abound!
 

Scott Free

House Member
May 9, 2007
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Okay....Praxius and Scott Free.....if the "police state" (what a laugh!) to the south of us is such a monstrous, imperialistic, genocidal entity......why do you suppose these fine, upstanding young people VOLUNTEERED to serve in the military?

I mean before they turned their backs on their comrades, and their oath, and fled, tails tucked firmly between their legs, to Canada?

BTW, here is a US Army soldier tried and convicted for Desertion......refusal to serve in Iraq...........his sentence? Tortured and shot at dawn? Thirty years hard labour?

Nope

Eight MONTHS in prison and a dishonourable discharge.

EIGHT MONTHS.

Some police state.

I tell you, if US war resisters had balls, they would stay in the USA and make their point, instead of running to Canada, where the thrust of their protest is entirely lost on those it is aimed at.....OMG! Eight MONTHS. Geez!

Absolutely no balls.

Send 'em home.

We don't want them.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2007/mar2007/agua-m09.shtml

Oh, you'll LOVE the source.......(shakes head)

Oh yeah.....the prosecution had asked for VERY strict punishment........two years.

For Desertion.

Give it a rest Lads, you are WAY out in left field on this one.

As usual

US deserter seeks Canada asylum

A US army deserter has begun making his case for political refugee status so he can stay in Canada.

Jeremy Hinzman, 25, is the first of three US deserters to appear before a refugee and immigration board in the city of Toronto, seeking asylum.

The paratrooper served in Afghanistan but left the US for Canada after his unit was ordered into Iraq last year.
Mr Hinzman, who took his wife and son with him to Toronto, says he believes the US-led war in Iraq is illegal.

Prisoner abuse

He said: "If you're given an illegal or immoral order, it's your duty and obligation to refuse it. I felt the order to Iraq went under that."

Mr Hinzman's lawyer is presenting what he says is evidence of US war crimes in Iraq at the hearing.

And a lobby group campaigning on Mr Hinzman's behalf argues that he was merely obeying international law by refusing to fight in Iraq because the United Nations never authorised the use of force there.

But immigration experts point out that Mr Hinzman voluntarily signed up to join the US army in January 2001, knowing that it might involve service overseas.

No American citizen has ever made a successful refugee claim in Canada, although it is thought the prisoner abuse scandals in Iraq may help his case.

If Mr Hinzman loses his bid to win asylum in Canada, he faces deportation to the US and up to five years in prison for desertion.

BBC
Did you just make up your facts?
 

DurkaDurka

Internet Lawyer
Mar 15, 2006
10,385
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Toronto
I think it's BS that the US government reserves the right to call back recent war vets, but.... read the ficking small print. The Us gov reserves the right to call them back within 18 monts or somewthing to that order. These guys volunteer to do this job, I realize a lot of the time they are poor, but that's how **** flows.
 

Colpy

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 5, 2005
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US deserter seeks Canada asylum

A US army deserter has begun making his case for political refugee status so he can stay in Canada.

Jeremy Hinzman, 25, is the first of three US deserters to appear before a refugee and immigration board in the city of Toronto, seeking asylum.

The paratrooper served in Afghanistan but left the US for Canada after his unit was ordered into Iraq last year.
Mr Hinzman, who took his wife and son with him to Toronto, says he believes the US-led war in Iraq is illegal.

Prisoner abuse

He said: "If you're given an illegal or immoral order, it's your duty and obligation to refuse it. I felt the order to Iraq went under that."

Mr Hinzman's lawyer is presenting what he says is evidence of US war crimes in Iraq at the hearing.

And a lobby group campaigning on Mr Hinzman's behalf argues that he was merely obeying international law by refusing to fight in Iraq because the United Nations never authorised the use of force there.

But immigration experts point out that Mr Hinzman voluntarily signed up to join the US army in January 2001, knowing that it might involve service overseas.

No American citizen has ever made a successful refugee claim in Canada, although it is thought the prisoner abuse scandals in Iraq may help his case.

If Mr Hinzman loses his bid to win asylum in Canada, he faces deportation to the US and up to five years in prison for desertion.

BBC
Did you just make up your facts?

Five years is hardly a tough sentence for desertion.....wasn't that long ago they shot you.

And that is a maximum.......the 8 months is probably a more typical sentence.

The fact remains.....if you want to challenge the US role in Iraq by civil disobedience....in this case by backing out of your oath and refusing to serve.....fine. But do it in the United States.

Then you MIGHT garner some respect from me.
 

Scott Free

House Member
May 9, 2007
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if you want to challenge the US role in Iraq by civil disobedience....in this case by backing out of your oath and refusing to serve.....fine. But do it in the United States.

Then you MIGHT garner some respect from me.

I'm sure that's what they really want: your respect; to hell with the children. Kill 'em all for Colpy.
 

lone wolf

Grossly Underrated
Nov 25, 2006
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In the bush near Sudbury
Get serious!

If you sign your name on the dotted line, you are in for the duration, for however long they want you and go wherever they send you. You have signed on to become property of the government - hence the term G. I. (Government Issue) There are ways to weasel out. You can shoot yourself in the foot, or twist your ankle jumping off the back of a truck, or get caught in a compromising position with someone of the same sex, or punch out an officer. All of them leave you in better standing (as well as out) than running away.
 

dancing-loon

House Member
Oct 8, 2007
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Thank you, Wolf, for explaining the GI and dotted-line-signing. I didn't know, they became property of the State.
 

Scott Free

House Member
May 9, 2007
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It is absurd to think people can sign their life and liberty away. It is also absurd for the government to think their agreement entitles them to visit violence on them.

People really don't understand freedom. If this keeps up (people deserting) the global elite might not be able to wage any wars!! I can see why they are so eager to punish these noble people.
 

Zzarchov

House Member
Aug 28, 2006
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You know what else stops desertion?

Not signing up for the military and promising to do things you have no intention of, while collecting money from the average taxpayers.
 

Scott Free

House Member
May 9, 2007
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You know what else stops desertion?

Not signing up for the military and promising to do things you have no intention of, while collecting money from the average taxpayers.

You seem to be assuming that they wouldn't be willing to pay the money back?
 

Colpy

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 5, 2005
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It is absurd to think people can sign their life and liberty away. It is also absurd for the government to think their agreement entitles them to visit violence on them.

People really don't understand freedom. If this keeps up (people deserting) the global elite might not be able to wage any wars!! I can see why they are so eager to punish these noble people.

Gee Whiz!

Think of it!

If the Global Elite were unable to wage war.....we could all wear jack boots, speak German, and kill Jews!

Or speak Russian, and live in the socialist paradise, as exemplified by the old USSR!

Or live under Sharia law...........

There are things worse than war.

And when you speak of people that don't understand freedom, look in the freaking mirror!

You can't distinquish a difference between a totaltarian communist state and a constitutional democracy......and you claim to be older than 16!

GEEZ! You're exactly who I need lecturing me on the concept of liberty (shakes head)
 

scratch

Senate Member
May 20, 2008
5,658
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Gee Whiz!

Think of it!

If the Global Elite were unable to wage war.....we could all wear jack boots, speak German, and kill Jews!

Or speak Russian, and live in the socialist paradise, as exemplified by the old USSR!

Or live under Sharia law...........

There are things worse than war.

And when you speak of people that don't understand freedom, look in the freaking mirror!

You can't distinquish a difference between a totaltarian communist state and a constitutional democracy......and you claim to be older than 16!

GEEZ! You're exactly who I need lecturing me on the concept of liberty (shakes head)
S.F. has you so far in a hole, you should stop digging!
You strike me as more Buckaroo than Canuck!
 

gopher

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 26, 2005
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Minnesota: Gopher State
"You swore you'd jump into a stream of bullets to protect your nation, and now you are fleeing rather than standing up to the government you think is evil?"


That's just it: they were not fighting for the USA nor is the present government in Baghdad evil. They were fighting for Bush's imperialistic war of aggression against Iraq.