Montreal has ‘nothing’ for family of woman killed by plow

[Praxius]

You've missed the point...completely and repeatedly. You made your mind up all ready.

So what's the point?

If the driver was negligent, He would have been charged quickly at the scene. I have yet to find any article stating he was charged. That tells me a lot.

So my :roll:, still stands. Go condemn a man, who has to live with the memory of killing someone. Even though he may not be at fault.

Speaking of missing points, I never directly blamed any of these people in these cases, nor did I claim for fact anybody's guilt. I simply explained the other side of the coin where people seemed to quickly blame the pedestrian because they had an MP3 player.

What I did point out was my own first hand experiences around here in Halifax, my driving, compared to other's around here who don't do half the things that are required to do, and how many people have been hit around here, mostly within crosswalks.

Your defense of the driver may be valid and he may not be at fault, but simply expressing that the pedestrian should be at fault because they were listening to an MP3 player (All the while everybody in their cars are listening to their radios/cd players and more isolated to sounds outside of their vehicles based on design) When the pedestrian could have actually had a walk light flashing and had the right of way, I believe is a bit skewed.

The driver has to live with the fact that they killed someone?

Don't make me misty-eyed.... tell that to the family who's loved one is a bag of meat and broken bones in the morgue.

My point is that until something official comes out in each case, it could be anybody's fault, regardless of excuses.

Maybe the person walking was listening to their music and wasn't paying attention, and thus, their own stupidity.

Then again, maybe the driver wasn't paying attention and yammering on their radio or cell phone, or simply paying too much attention to their own music playing on the radio/cd player/mp3 player and thus, their own stupidity.

Either way, someone wasn't paying enough attention.

And if a person can't keep control of a large truck and know how to drive safe, then they shouldn't be doing the job.

Legally responsible or not, when I am driving, I have come accross a few idiots who just darted out in front of my car, but in every situation I expect someone to do so anyways, so I am at least somewhat prepared to break or avoid them..... I don't need to have someone's face explode all over my windsheild and damage my car if I don't have to.

And if I end up being responsible for killing someone with a vehicle I am driving, then I expect the law to follow through, as I will not accept being let off simply because I have to live with it. (That does no justice for the family) For all anybody else knows, I could have done it on purpose. If I am at fault, so be it.... if I am not, so be it.

 

[Praxius]

Oh and another problem with getting convictions or truly finding out who is at fault, is that there are always conflicting eye-witnesses, and that the traffic lights don't simply stop when an accident happens. Someone could say one way had the green light, while another person claims it was the other..... but then they are questioned on whether or not they are sure of what they claim.... then they don't really know for sure, because it's usually a few days later when they re-ask them.... hince conflicting reports by eye-witnesses = reasonable doubt.... = walking away with no charges.

And in some cases, it's just the driver who's the witness, so you have nobody else to believe but the person who's vehicle killed the other person in question....

The chances of a conviction in these cases are more slim then sexual assault cases between a he said / she said situation.... because usually one side is dead and can't explain their side of the story.

One can only listen to the driver's claims and revolve the rest around assumptions based on limited evidence.

 

[CDNBear]

Speaking of missing points, I never directly blamed any of these people in these cases, nor did I claim for fact anybody's guilt. I simply explained the other side of the coin where people seemed to quickly blame the pedestrian because they had an MP3 player.

Someone else brought the MP3 play analogy into this. I merely dismissed it and reasoned why.

There are always multiple sides to traffic accidents. As in all things, there's the one side, the other side, then there's the truth.

But as I stated, I've heard of no charges laid, trust me. If someone is killed in a traffic accident. The police are ever so diligent and charges are laid were the driver is at fault.

 

[Praxius]

Someone else brought the MP3 play analogy into this. I merely dismissed it and reasoned why.

There are always multiple sides to traffic accidents. As in all things, there's the one side, the other side, then there's the truth.

But as I stated, I've heard of no charges laid, trust me. If someone is killed in a traffic accident. The police are ever so diligent and charges are laid were the driver is at fault.

The quote I grabbed from you sounded like you wern't, so my apologies for perhaps not understanding what you were attempting to say. If I understood it a different way, then I may not have even responded in this thread to begin with.

But when college and high school students were getting smacked like Frogger around here in the past year or so, everybody I heard on the radio calling in to shoot off their two cents, kept blaming the pedestrians who may or may not have been listening to an MP3 player, as if it is somehow different and ok for someone listening to music within a car.

That's where I was coming from.

If those people want pedestrians to not listen to music when they walk (Which has been a thing most have done since walkmans were invented) then perhaps the drivers should not have radios and cd players installed in their vehicles and have to drive with their windows down the whole time.

I know.... makes no sense.

 

[CDNBear]

The quote I grabbed from you sounded like you wern't, so my apologies for perhaps not understanding what you were attempting to say. If I understood it a different way, then I may not have even responded in this thread to begin with.

But when college and high school students were getting smacked like Frogger around here in the past year or so, everybody I heard on the radio calling in to shoot off their two cents, kept blaming the pedestrians who may or may not have been listening to an MP3 player, as if it is somehow different and ok for someone listening to music within a car.

That's where I was coming from.

If those people want pedestrians to not listen to music when they walk (Which has been a thing most have done since walkmans were invented) then perhaps the drivers should not have radios and cd players installed in their vehicles and have to drive with their windows down the whole time.

I know.... makes no sense.

Ok, here's where we part again...

I have a car with a 500watt sound system in it. I still manage to be observant of the area around, as is my duty as an operator.

If a pedestrian chooses to wear headphones, they too, must become better aware of their environment visually. Simple because they may believe they have the right of way. Does not make their actions wise, nor correct.

If they step off the curb, 10, 20, 30 or 40 feet from the hood ornament of a vehicle, it is their stupidity, not the operators that has injured them.

 

[lone wolf]

To people accustomed to sitting low to the ground with windows all around, that chair in the air must appear like a bubble and the brakes like instant anchors. It really sucks to operate big equipment around little people.

 

[CDNBear]

To people accustomed to sitting low to the ground with windows all around, that chair in the air must appear like a bubble and the brakes like instant anchors. It really sucks to operate big equipment around little people.

My point exactly.

 

[Praxius]

Ok, here's where we part again...

I have a car with a 500watt sound system in it. I still manage to be observant of the area around, as is my duty as an operator.

If a pedestrian chooses to wear headphones, they too, must become better aware of their environment visually. Simple because they may believe they have the right of way. Does not make their actions wise, nor correct.

If they step off the curb, 10, 20, 30 or 40 feet from the hood ornament of a vehicle, it is their stupidity, not the operators that has injured them.

Although I agree with the first two paragraphs, indeed we part.....

If they have the right of way to cross, regardless of the distance from another vehicle in another lane, where is the difference compared to someone driving in a car who has a green light?

Because the driver who has a green light decided to proceed as they should, if that other car doesn't heed their own red light (Or tries to make a right turn when they shouldn't) and smashes into the other driver with the right of way, the guy with the green light should be at fault?

^ I know this isn't what you meant, but this is how it sounds when you claim the pedestrian should somehow be at fault..... if they have the right of way, they have the right of way, which means those in the other lanes should slam their damn breaks on if they have to..... which they shouldn't have to if they're paying attention in the first place.

Usually when I am walking on my own, I play my music, and I am very aware of my surroundings as best as one can, via turing to look over my shoulder every minute or two, watching the lights, watching the cars, seeing how crazy they are that day, etc.

And sometimes that's not enough. A few years back, I was leaving my old job in the north end and was going to cross a street to make my way to the bus. This lady in a pick-up was looking the other way for traffic. I could see her very clearly within the truck, she never once looked towards the way I was coming. She inched towards the cross walk but was taking forever.... technically I had the right of way since she was at a stop sign. As I came closer I noticed she still never looked the other way to see if anything was coming the other way.

I slowed down a bit to wait and see if she'd dart her ass out into the lane, but wasn't doing anything. Since I had a bus to catch and I had the right of way, I couldn't wait much longer so I slowly made my way accross the crosswalk.

Go figure, as soon as I got square in front of her grill, she decides to floor it, which my reaction was to slam my hands on her hood, which she quickly slammed on her breaks. Her grill made a little contact with my chest, but nothing serious. (That and I'm tall enough to grab ahold of the hood to go for a ride if I needed to)

She may have ended up killing me, but I see it as teaching her sorry ass a lesson in driving. How long was I going to wait for someone to do something illegal when I had the right of way anyways?

She of course looked like she just about shat her pants, more then I felt I was, since I just shook my head and kept walking. She rolled down her window to yell out "Sorry" ~ Which I replied "Don't worry about it."

In that situation I was directly paying attention to the situation, and I had a good bet she would do exactly what she did, which is why I was prepared to brace myself if it occured.

Could have I died?

Some could only be so lucky...... but my death wouldn't have been the issue.... I felt at the time it was the priciple to teach this person a thing or two about learning how to drive on the damn roads..... if I died.... meh, so be it.

But I didn't so we move on.

But this is one of the many reasons why I have more of a reason to believe many of these situations are more likely the fault of the drivers then the pedestrians.

But as me purposely walking out in front of the truck mean that I was at fault since I knew what was most likely going to happen?

No, since once again, legally I had the right of way... it was her fault for not looking both ways before pulling out into the intersection.

And I am aware of the common phrase "Well legality doesn't matter much if you're dead" ~ In which I would reply "Yes your right.... but since I am not dead, it does matter."

 

[Zzarchov]

To people accustomed to sitting low to the ground with windows all around, that chair in the air must appear like a bubble and the brakes like instant anchors. It really sucks to operate big equipment around little people.

While I agree 100%, that is why there is also (at least here) special lisences required to operate the vehicle. Sure this time it was an adult, next time it could be a 10 year old kid walking . Children are stupid, and its something adults have to work around, so if he's going carefully enough to stop for a child (as he should be in a city when its getting dark) he should be able to stop for an adult.

Yes it wasn't intentional, If I turn a right without checking my blindspot and run over some twirp who didn't stop before zipping accross the intersection on their bike, thats still my bad, even if they also should have acted differently.

How fast was this guy going down residential streets in the first place? According to Mapquest the speed limit in the area is 40km/hr.

And its a downtown university street, I've lived in many university towns, its not somewhere that you shouldn't expect people to cross the street, there were probably a half dozen other people crossing the street at the same time.

Yes snow plows are notoriously hard to stop, yes people are warned (or used to be) with flyers never to move infront of a snow plow.

Snow plow drivers are also given lots of warning on safe speeds and how to tell if kids (Against the rules ) have build forts in snowbanks on the roads.

 

[lone wolf]

All the licensing in the world still can't make snow not stick to mirrors or frost and condensation cling to glass. It can't make a fibreglass cowl, a metal door or a steel box (generally laden with several tons of sand ballast) see-through. Five blind spots? In an operating plow, you are lucky sometimes if your wipers can clear the windshield.

 

[Praxius]

All the licensing in the world still can't make snow not stick to mirrors or frost and condensation cling to glass. It can't make a fibreglass cowl, a metal door or a steel box (generally laden with several tons of sand ballast) see-through. Five blind spots? In an operating plow, you are lucky sometimes if your wipers can clear the windshield.

Which is why you get fines around here if you do not properly clear all the snow and ice off your windsheilds, roof, hood, mirrors and lights.

Those are not excuses, those are signs of laziness and endangerment.

I see them all the time around here. People hoping into their cars, turn the wipers on once to clear the front windsheild and then drive off with snow all over the rest of their windows, mirrors, hood, roof, lights etc.

It takes 5 mins to clear that crap off.... it takes a lifetime to deal with the memory of knowing that you killed someone because of not doing something as simple as giving yourself enough viewing ability before you drive off....... and how long would the jail time be?

Added:

If your wipers are that bad that they can't clear your windsheild properly, get new ones. It has nothing to do with luck, it's got everything to do with responsibility.

 

[lone wolf]

Which is why you get fines around here if you do not properly clear all the snow and ice off your windsheilds, roof, hood, mirrors and lights.

Those are not excuses, those are signs of laziness and endangerment.

I see them all the time around here. People hoping into their cars, turn the wipers on once to clear the front windsheild and then drive off with snow all over the rest of their windows, mirrors, hood, roof, lights etc.

It takes 5 mins to clear that crap off.... it takes a lifetime to deal with the memory of knowing that you killed someone because of not doing something as simple as giving yourself enough viewing ability before you drive off....... and how long would the jail time be?

The stuff blows over the blade, blows in off a snow blower chute. Have you ever operated a snowplow? The general purpose is to make snow move ... sort of like a boat makes waves.

Maybe they should just stop plowing and let pedestrians and car drivers get about as best they can.

 

[Zzarchov]

The stuff blows over the blade, blows in off a snow blower chute. Have you ever operated a snowplow? The general purpose is to make snow move ... sort of like a boat makes waves.

Maybe they should just stop plowing and let pedestrians and car drivers get about as best they can.

While it is a shoddy (not the word I would use) Catch-22, do your job safely or keep your job, that isn't unique to snow plows.

If the thing fogs or snows or frosts up to make driving dangerous. Pull over and clean it off, even if it only goes 20 feet before you have to repeat this. You have a care of duty to operate the vehicle safely for both yourself and others and can refuse unsafe work.

In practice, this means obeying the law is liable to get you illegally fired. But then you can choose, keep your job by breaking the law, or avoid the risk of killing someone and being held liable.

 

[CanadianLove]

I found Quebec to be that way with pedestrians in general. Cars will speed up in Quebec if you try to step out on the street. If you think being in the parking area and waiting for them to pass is alright - forget it - they swing over and try to take you out.

It is like you are getting a licence to kill when you get a Quebec driver's licence, or that is how it seems. I think that is why they have the "No right turn on red." law to give the pedestrians a chance.

 

[Praxius]

The stuff blows over the blade, blows in off a snow blower chute. Have you ever operated a snowplow? The general purpose is to make snow move ... sort of like a boat makes waves.

Maybe they should just stop plowing and let pedestrians and car drivers get about as best they can.

No I never operated a snow plow, nor does it matter... those mirrors are there for a reason, and if they're covered in snow, then they should stop what they're doing, pull to the side of the road, clear them and then continue on. If their wipers blow and don't clear their windows, once again, get new ones that are of a better quality that work.

And if your response to the above is that it would take too long for them to keep stopping what they are doing and wipe their mirrors off all the time, what's more important, a short bit of time and a bit of money, or someone's life?

And if they have the mentality you have above when it comes to clearing their viewpoints, then no, I don't want them on the roads and I'd rather do it myself.

 

[lone wolf]

While it is a shoddy (not the word I would use) Catch-22, do your job safely or keep your job, that isn't unique to snow plows.

If the thing fogs or snows or frosts up to make driving dangerous. Pull over and clean it off, even if it only goes 20 feet before you have to repeat this. You have a care of duty to operate the vehicle safely for both yourself and others and can refuse unsafe work.

In practice, this means obeying the law is liable to get you illegally fired. But then you can choose, keep your job by breaking the law, or avoid the risk of killing someone and being held liable.

How loudly will you complain if the roads aren't scraped to bare asphalt?

 

[Zzarchov]

How loudly will you complain if the roads aren't scraped to bare asphalt?

Either enough to fork out for safe vehicles or quiety enough they ignore me.

People complain about anything less than perfect, that doesn't mean you breach safety requirements to appease them.

 

[lone wolf]

Either enough to fork out for safe vehicles or quiety enough they ignore me.

People complain about anything less than perfect, that doesn't mean you breach safety requirements to appease them.

...and how loudly are people going to complain over the tax increase necessary to purchase all this magical equipment that can evade the laws of physics while operating in a winter environment ... or perhaps we should just outlaw winter altogether if they're not willing to drive or walk in streetsful of snow.

People should just have brains enough to stay away from big machinery. How long has it taken people to realize train tracks mean trains run by?

 

[Praxius]

How loudly will you complain if the roads aren't scraped to bare asphalt?

I guess you haven't seen the half-assed job they've been doing around here in the HRM this year..... they might as well not bother to come out by the way they're doing things around here.

They have half a sidewalk plowed and then suddenly it stops and you're facing a giant hill of snow they never bothered to finish clearing.... there's boulders of ice and snow all the way down the sidewalks, all the side streets only have one lane cleared, no salt, no sand, it takes them most of the day to just clear a couple of streets out of a hundred or so..... and then they piss off for the rest of the day while the handicap and elderly have to figure out how to get to point A to point B.

They even had a report on last week's Global News on just how bad it is. They not only had regular joes complaining about how bad and poorly they've been doing this year, but they also talked to one guy who was blind (whom I've actually seen around from time to time)

He and many like him have to navigate their way around through little clues and key landmarks so they know where they are going. Not only do they have to deal with many of these things disapearing on them in the winter time, but with these chunks of ice and snow still left in the sidewalks, with half of the sidewalks not even touched, they're completely lossed.

They actually showed him trying to cross an intersection and had to walk through a 3' high mound of snow. He lost his balance and started staggering along the edge of the road and into oncoming cars almost falling twice.... it took him a couple of minutes to figure out where he was again before he could continue, all the while the other cars actually were decent enough to give him time to get through the intersection.

Could you even imagine being in that position? He didn't want to get help from the reporter and camera man because he wanted to show just how difficult it is for him and other people who are blind.

And it's not just the blind, they also followed another guy who needs crutches to help him walk. They showed how long it took him to move his legs and the crutches through the boulders of snow and ice......

the firggin plowing this year is absolutely shameful and pathetic.

Of course good ol Rodney MacDonald and his lovely conservative party decided to pay all these half-assed private plowing companies to do most of the work, which would explain why it's become so damn crappy around here as of late.

How loudly would I or anybody else complain if they were never plowed?

I'm already complaining, and so it the rest of Halifax.

 

[lone wolf]

And if they have the mentality you have above when it comes to clearing their viewpoints, then no, I don't want them on the roads and I'd rather do it myself.

Good bye Prax. You are getting belligerent again.