Memories of Hanoi Jane

[Colpy]

Not a lot of people responsible for your buddies dying in Vietnam are still alive. But you can still go after McNamara and Kissinger. They did a lot more to get your friends killed than Jane Fonda ever did.





Vietnam stopped him.

Hmmm, as I said.....the problem was not Jane's anti-war stance, the problem was her traveling to the country at war with her nation, and offering herself as a military asset.........a propaganda piece.

That is simply treasonous.

Much more so than the guy that stole the Pentagon Papers...........what was his name?

Jane inspires such venom for a very good reason.

As for Pol Pot.........the Vietnamese went from the Chinese sphere of influence to the Russian.....and oh how those two great Commies fell out! After the fall of Saigon in 1975, Pol Pot.....a Chinese puppet, rose in Cambodia........and the Vietnamese found themselves flanked by an ancient and hated enemy. Therefore....into Cambodia they went. The Great Power Game, socialist style.

Funny how most curse America's bloody history, and conveniently forget China's involvement with a series of bloody murderers than make the worst of America's bastards look like Little Bo Peep in comparison.

Wasn't Hanoi Hilton mostly aircrew - Air Force - officers - commissioned (and most likely NOT draftees)

yes.

 

[gerryh]

As for Pol Pot.........the Vietnamese went from the Chinese sphere of influence to the Russian.....and oh how those two great Commies fell out! After the fall of Saigon in 1975, Pol Pot.....a Chinese puppet, rose in Cambodia........and the Vietnamese found themselves flanked by an ancient and hated enemy. Therefore....into Cambodia they went. The Great Power Game, socialist style.

Funny how most curse America's bloody history, and conveniently forget China's involvement with a series of bloody murderers than make the worst of America's bastards look like Little Bo Peep in comparison.

It's Jackie boy that needs the history lesson, since he is the one that brought up Pol Pot and implied the americans were the ones that fought against him.

 

[Corduroy]

Not a lot of people responsible for your buddies dying in Vietnam are still alive. But you can still go after McNamara and Kissinger. They did a lot more to get your friends killed than Jane Fonda ever did.

It just occurred me that even though I saw McNamara in a recent documentary, I should have checked if he was still alive. Turns out he died in 2009.

Hmmm, as I said.....the problem was not Jane's anti-war stance, the problem was her traveling to the country at war with her nation, and offering herself as a military asset.........a propaganda piece.

That is simply treasonous.

You say like it's a point against Fonda. There's nothing inherently wrong with treason.

Funny how most curse America's bloody history, and conveniently forget China's involvement with a series of bloody murderers than make the worst of America's bastards look like Little Bo Peep in comparison.

Do we forget? It doesn't seem relevant to this discussion actually.

 

[Colpy]

There's nothing inherently wrong with treason.

.

I believe there is when you live in a democracy...........although I see your point. Some acts by the state might be so far out of bounds that treason becomes the only alternative.

However, I have little venom to spare for the SDS, the weathermen.......the Panthers, all those deluded treasonous loonies of the 60s and 70s that thought they were fighting the good fight. The ones that actually committed treasonous acts took the risks, fought the fight on a level that could, and often did, cost them much.....death, prison time, a life on the run.......

Jane did not pay, except with increasing fame. She left a life of wealth and privilege to travel abroad and offer aid and assistance to the enemies of the state, as designated by a freely elected government......then she returned to that soft, privileged life with no thought that she would ever have a polished nail damaged in the fight for the cause....she was brainless, and she acted with complete impunity, and she knew it........outrageous!

Had she truly had convictions, she'd have stayed in the socialist paradise of Vietnam. Or donated her wealth, instead of increasing her fame.

Scum.

Absolute scum.

 

[Corduroy]

I believe there is when you live in a democracy...........although I see your point. Some acts by the state might be so far out of bounds that treason becomes the only alternative.

Does democracy make what the United States did in Vietnam right?

 

[Retired_Can_Soldier]

Does democracy make what the United States did in Vietnam right?

Vietnam did not start with the Americans.

 

[Colpy]

Does democracy make what the United States did in Vietnam right?

Not even close.

 

[ironsides]

Yet Jane is still spewing her garbage. There is one thing to be against the war and another to do photo shots manning a North Vietnam antiaircraft gun. Jane Fonda is plane and simple a traitor., those veterans she apologized to did not as papers reported forgive her.

Jane Fonda in Vietnam

ROFLMFAO, to stop the spread of communism eh. Americans lost that one, don't remember the world being over run by communism afterwards.

Amazing at it may seems, the war in Vietnam did help stop the spread of communism it just fizzled out after it.

Does democracy make what the United States did in Vietnam right?

democracy had nothing to do with it.

 

[Cliffy]

Yet Jane is still spewing her garbage. There is one thing to be against the war and another to do photo shots manning a North Vietnam antiaircraft gun. Jane Fonda is plane and simple a traitor., those veterans she apologized to did not as papers reported forgive her.

Jane Fonda in Vietnam




Amazing at it may seems, the war in Vietnam did help stop the spread of communism it just fizzled out after it.


democracy had nothing to do with it.

Communism had nothing to do with it either. The US does not set up a brutal puppet dictatorship to stop communism, it does it to exploit the people and resources of said country. Our decadent lifestyle, in the west, is dependent on the suffering of people elsewhere.

 

[#juan]

The Vietnam Veteran's Memorial, also known as The Wall, is 493 feet long, or almost 1/10th of a mile. A Vietnamese equivalent to this memorial, including both North and South Vietnamese military and civilians who were killed by the American military, would be 9,903 feet, or almost 1.9 miles, long. This does not include disease and starvation deaths, injuries, or South Vietnamese killed by the North Vietnamese Army and if it included all the deaths in Laos and Cambodia, The damn wall could be three miles long.

Sources:

 

[Corduroy]

Not even close.

Then was what the United States did in Vietnam not wrong enough to justify speaking out against it and supporting the other side?

Vietnam did not start with the Americans.

I'm not sure how that's relevant.

 

[Retired_Can_Soldier]

I'm not sure how that's relevant.

It is relevant in the fact that Vietnam did not start with USA and that they did in fact start into this war as advisors rather than participants. Some might even say peacekeepers. What the US allowed itself to do was getting pulled into the 10,000 day war after the French had abandoned their attempt to stop the NVA\s push. Largely this war is remembered as America's War, when in fact it was not.

 

[Colpy]

Communism had nothing to do with it either. The US does not set up a brutal puppet dictatorship to stop communism, it does it to exploit the people and resources of said country. Our decadent lifestyle, in the west, is dependent on the suffering of people elsewhere.

So.....exactly what resources of Vietnam did the Americans covet???????????????????

Your premise does not live up to the test of reality.

Then was what the United States did in Vietnam not wrong enough to justify speaking out against it and supporting the other side?

It certainly was wrong enough to justify speaking out against it................and working against in within the system of democratic government of the USA. I even have respect for those that fought against the American stance outside the law.........

BUT I draw the line at offering support for the enemies of democracy, active support for a government allied with the Evil Empire, a government that adhered to a philosophy of tyranny that killed 100 million people in the 20th century.......and that was at war, justified or not, against your own people, your own democracy.

WAY out of line.

 

[#juan]

Yet Jane is still spewing her garbage. There is one thing to be against the war and another to do photo shots manning a North Vietnam antiaircraft gun. Jane Fonda is plane and simple a traitor.,
.

Ironsides there was no legal reason for the U.S. to even be in VietNam. Remember that the U.S. illegally killed everal million
VietNamese civillians. How can Jane Fonda be accused of treason for complaining about it? Her message to Hanoi was that
all Americans were not baby killing war mongers. Remember Agent Orange? Agent Orange is still killing people in VietNam.
Remember My Lai? There was not just one MyLai. There were hundreds.

 

[lone wolf]

It is relevant in the fact that Vietnam did not start with USA and that they did in fact start into this war as advisors rather than participants. Some might even say peacekeepers. What the US allowed itself to do was getting pulled into the 10,000 day war after the French had abandoned their attempt to stop the NVA\s push. Largely this war is remembered as America's War, when in fact it was not.

Vietnam started around a thousand years ago after the Chinese dynasties and Mongol hoards were sent packing. In their expansion south to feed a growing population in a much smaller Vietnam, they wiped out or assimilated the Cham nation and took much of South Vietnam from the Khmer. South Vietnam prospered due its better trade location out on the peninsula - causing hard feelings in the North. The division at the 17th parallel is not the result of post WW 2 border shuffles as walls were erected as far back as the seventeenth century to stop the North from taking the South. It was a very long civil war that drew in France (when Vietnam was a part of French Indochina) then the US after Ho Chi Minh's government was recognized by the Soviet Union and Red China. Before 1949, the US was actually helping Ho in his battle to resist French colonialism.

 

[Corduroy]

It certainly was wrong enough to justify speaking out against it................and working against in within the system of democratic government of the USA. I even have respect for those that fought against the American stance outside the law.........

BUT I draw the line at offering support for the enemies of democracy [...]

The United States was not championing democracy in Vietnam. It was propping up a puppet dictatorship, which murdered and oppressed its people and cancelled elections because it feared the people supported the communists over it. The United States also indiscriminately and deliberately slaughtered the Vietnamese, destroyed their homes and livelihoods.

Neither the French, the Americans nor the South Vietnamese dictatorship supported democracy for Vietnam. One would have a hard time arguing that the Viet Minh were fighting for democracy but you'd probably have an even harder time arguing that they were fighting against it.

It is relevant in the fact that [...]

OK, but not relevant to anything I'm saying.

 

[#juan]

Hmmm, as I said.....the problem was not Jane's anti-war stance, the problem was her traveling to the country at war with her nation, and offering herself as a military asset.........a propaganda piece.

That is simply treasonous.

Much more so than the guy that stole the Pentagon Papers...........what was his name?

Jane inspires such venom for a very good reason.




yes.

Yes, Jane was terrible enemy alright. A bigger enemy was the American government who kept secret the
growing number of body bags being sent home.
Somehow, I don't see her as an enemey of the American people. She was more an enemy of the American
government at the time.

Here she is at 75. I would say she will be around for quite a few years yet.

 

[Cliffy]

Yes, Jane was terrible enemy alright. A bigger enemy was the American government who kept secret the
growing number of body bags being sent home.
Somehow, I don't see her as an enemey of the American people. She was more an enemy of the American
government at the time.

Here she is at 75. I would say she will be around for quite a few years yet.

Oh, Juan, you'll give Colpy a stroke. She still looks hot but I wonder how much of that is plastic surgery. Not that I would kick her out of bed for eating crackers.

 

[lone wolf]

Wonder where those perky ta-tas of yore rest now ;-)

 

[TenPenny]

I wouldn't kick her out of bed, but I'm pretty sure she wouldn't be in my bed in the first place. She's far too annoying for me to ever put up with for that long.