Mall roof collapse injures at least 4 in N. Ontario

[Just the Facts]

I still think they could have made a greater effort. If not moving rubble, at least trying to locate the tapping. Who knows, the person may have been able to have been saved by something as simple as a tube being punched through to allow air, or trickling water in.

I know it's always harder to do than to talk about, but still I maintain you can't just do nothing.

It was abandoned at that point as their safety is was risk.

You're a callous SOB.

Rescue workers put their safety at risk all the time, it's kinda characteristic of the job. There were many people outside who said they were raring and ready to go in, risk or not, but they weren't allowed.

Callousness was not a factor.

 

[DurkaDurka]

Rescue workers put their safety at risk all the time, it's kinda characteristic of the job. There were many people outside who said they were raring and ready to go in, risk or not, but they weren't allowed.

Callousness was not a factor.

What would these extra people have done? They needed heavy equipment from Sudbury to get to the collapsed portion of the building, people cannot move crushed escalators and massive concrete blocks with hand tools.

There is acceptable risk and then there is stupidity.

 

[lone wolf]

The vital piece of equipment was a grapple arm from Priestly Demolitions in Toronto.

 

[earth_as_one]

It was abandoned at that point as their safety is was risk.

You're a callous SOB.

Hmmm. you still don't understand what happened.

Let me be clear. I never suggested that the rescue workers put their lives in jeopardy. If the initial rescue plan was deemed too dangerous to continue then the correct course of action should have been to come up with another rescue plan.

But that's not what happened. When the initial plan was deemed too dangerous to continue, the entire rescue effort was abandoned. there was no effort to come up with another rescue plan. No one else was contacted. Bigger equipment wasn't on its way. The rescue effort was over as far as the bureaucrats were concerned. The people under the rubble were suppposed to get themselves out I suppose. That's the way things were for about 12 hours. During that 12 hours, nothing happening. Not only was their no plan b under way during that time, their wasn't even an intent to formulate plan b. No one was working on the problem anymore. The entire effort was stopped.

When the word got out that nothing was happening and nothing was planned to happen, the towns people threatened to take action themselves. The Premiere and PM called to offer help. The CBC made the mayor look ridiculous.

Then suddenly the rescue effort was back on. Suddenly a plan b came into existence. Meanwhile 12 precious hours were wasted by navel gazing.

 

[lone wolf]

For that, there will be an inquiry or two - including how did the structure get into such a state of disrepair.

 

[Just the Facts]

What would these extra people have done? They needed heavy equipment from Sudbury to get to the collapsed portion of the building, people cannot move crushed escalators and massive concrete blocks with hand tools.

There is acceptable risk and then there is stupidity.

Dig pockets, listen, drill, dig more pockets, get one of those tiny camera's on a twirly wormy thingy and prod around, whatever man, whatever. Just not nothing. I can't believe there aren't any concrete cutters in Elliott Lake, but if not GO GET SOME! Get some freaking archeology tools to dig with if you have to. Just not nothing.

And like I said, that heavy machinery should have been on the way pronto, not three freakin days later. How long did it take to recover the bodies once the machinery got there? If they left Toronto on Sunday instead of Tuesday, that could have been a rescue rather than a recovery.

 

[DurkaDurka]

Dig pockets, listen, drill, dig more pockets, get one of those tiny camera's on a twirly wormy thingy and prod around, whatever man, whatever. Just not nothing. I can't believe there aren't any concrete cutters in Elliott Lake, but if not GO GET SOME! Get some freaking archeology tools to dig with if you have to. Just not nothing.

And like I said, that heavy machinery should have been on the way pronto, not three freakin days later. How long did it take to recover the bodies once the machinery got there? If they left Toronto on Sunday instead of Tuesday, that could have been a rescue rather than a recovery.

Elliot Lake mall cave-in officials detail recovery of 2 bodies - Canada - CBC News

"At the afternoon news conference, Neadles' voice broke as he described how his team was "devastated" by a sense from Elliot Lake residents the crew was giving up prior to the heavy equipment arriving. He said it was his decision to take his team out because "beams were going to fail.""

What the hell would a concrete cutter have done? They had to push a frigging escalator out of the way to reach the area.

You realize what a falling beam would do to the rescuers? Thankfully these professional do not allow emotions to rule their decisions.

 

[Just the Facts]

So did a beam fall? There was danger, I get it, that's not at issue. Maybe everyone was dead well before they could have been brought out anyway too, who knows.

 

[DurkaDurka]

So did a beam fall? There was danger, I get it, that's not at issue. Maybe everyone was dead well before they could have been brought out anyway too, who knows.

It's messed up regardless. Reading about the history of it, it should have been torn down ages ago.

 

[Just the Facts]

It's messed up regardless. Reading about the history of it, it should have been torn down ages ago.

Yup there will be lots of 'splainin to do for that.

 

[DurkaDurka]

Yup there will be lots of 'splainin to do for that.

Why the hell would they need a design like that to begin with? It's not like there is a lack of space for a parking lot there.

 

[lone wolf]

I'm almost betting the bigger problem was under the mall....

Entry to Zellers (B Ladell photo)

Upper entry to Zellers (opposite the escalator penthouse)(B Ladell photo)

Close-up of brickwork on entry (B Ladell photo)

 

[earth_as_one]

Elliot Lake mall cave-in officials detail recovery of 2 bodies - Canada - CBC News

"At the afternoon news conference, Neadles' voice broke as he described how his team was "devastated" by a sense from Elliot Lake residents the crew was giving up prior to the heavy equipment arriving. He said it was his decision to take his team out because "beams were going to fail.""

What the hell would a concrete cutter have done? They had to push a frigging escalator out of the way to reach the area.

You realize what a falling beam would do to the rescuers? Thankfully these professional do not allow emotions to rule their decisions.

OK I read the article... but that's not what happened. I saw the interview of the mayor and when the initial rescue effort was abandoned, he admitted that they not only did not have a plan b, they weren't even working on a plan b. It was on the national news on Monday night.

here is another version of the same story:

TORONTO - It may already be too late to save anyone trapped in roof collapse of the building in the Elliot Lake mall, but rescue attempts have been less than gallant. Appalling, even. Even when there was evidence that one or two were alive in the wreckage — with about 30 people unaccounted for — decisions were made that conditions were too dangerous for rescuers to attempt anything.
Barely 48 hours after the collapse, rescue efforts were called off — until Premier Dalton McGuinty intervened, and locals vehemently protested....
...The Elliot Lake roof collapse occurred Saturday afternoon, and on Monday rescue attempts were officially called off — until the premier decreed otherwise. Even if conditions were too dangerous for rescuers, they should have explored alternatives. Frankly, it’s hard to understand why anyone would quit when it was known (or believed) victims were still alive in the wreckage....
Questionable efforts in Elliot Lake rescue | Ontario | News | Toronto Sun

Now I see the bureaucrats are claiming that they never stopped working on a rescue plan. That's not what happened.

BTW, I do not blame the initial rescuers for their failure to rescue the victims. Only they can determine if the risk was too great. I wouldn't want to be in their situation. I wouldn't want to see more people killed just to pull some dead bodies out of the rubble. Also, no rescue worker should take unacceptable risks to save others. The risk must be deemed reasonable.

 

[DurkaDurka]

OK I read the article... but that's not what happened. I saw the interview of the mayor and when the initial rescue effort was abandoned, he admitted that they not only did not have a plan b, they weren't even working on a plan b. It was on the national news on Monday night.

here is another version of the same story:

TORONTO - It may already be too late to save anyone trapped in roof collapse of the building in the Elliot Lake mall, but rescue attempts have been less than gallant. Appalling, even. Even when there was evidence that one or two were alive in the wreckage — with about 30 people unaccounted for — decisions were made that conditions were too dangerous for rescuers to attempt anything.
Barely 48 hours after the collapse, rescue efforts were called off — until Premier Dalton McGuinty intervened, and locals vehemently protested....
...The Elliot Lake roof collapse occurred Saturday afternoon, and on Monday rescue attempts were officially called off — until the premier decreed otherwise. Even if conditions were too dangerous for rescuers, they should have explored alternatives. Frankly, it’s hard to understand why anyone would quit when it was known (or believed) victims were still alive in the wreckage....
Questionable efforts in Elliot Lake rescue | Ontario | News | Toronto Sun

Now I see the bureaucrats are claiming that they never stopped working on a rescue plan. That's not what happened.

BTW, I do not blame the initial rescuers for their failure to rescue the victims. Only they can determine if the risk was too great. I wouldn't want to be in their situation. I wouldn't want to see more people killed just to pull some dead bodies out of the rubble. Also, no rescue worker should take unacceptable risks to save others. The risk must be deemed reasonable.

Who knows, seems like there is 30 different version of events now.

 

[spaminator]

That is pretty simple, there were probably 9 people in the area who were waiting for an opportunity to disappear and when the opportunity presented itself they acted on it. :smile:

either that or there were 9 people who were wanted dead. 8O

 

[earth_as_one]

Who knows, seems like there is 30 different version of events now.

Obfuscation is a common strategy to hide a screw up.

The news at the time I made this post claimed that the rescue effort was over. NO PLAN B!

Mall rescue called off, then ordered back on
Province intervenes in search for survivors

...Earlier in the day, personal vigils gave way to outraged protests after officials announced they were halting efforts to rescue possible survivors. Dozens of angry community members gathered outside city hall to express their disgust that officials had walked away from a rescue effort they deemed too dangerous. "Rescue missions never end, save our families, save our friends," chanted the protesters, adding efforts to recover survivors had gone on for days in the wake of high-profile tragedies.
Residents of the former mining hub said abandoning trapped comrades would be unthinkable in miners' culture, speculating volunteer mineworkers should take up the rescue themselves....
Mall rescue called off, then ordered back on - Winnipeg Free Press

Which is why I wrote this yesterday:

This makes me so angry, even I feel like lynching someone and I have no personal involvement in this tragedy. I can only imagine how angry friends and family must feel for this obscenely gross incompetence. I can understand why the rescue effort might need to regroup or call in additional resources due to extreme danger... but to call off a rescue and knowing that at least one person was alive under the rubble.... That's... I'm not sure what words can adequately describe the anger I feel .

 

[bill barilko]

It's messed up regardless. Reading about the history of it, it should have been torn down ages ago.

Looking @ the pics as posted and remembering that the mall owner was supposed to have rec'd a report last month saying there was no problem I'm pretty sure some engineer's ass is going to fry in hell.

 

[earth_as_one]

Also I'd expect that the government departments are going to want to look into how this disaster was handled and make recommendations for improvements.

Personally I think that anyone who owns a piece of heavy equipment should be able to register their services in a database which can be consulted in the event of a disaster. When the emergency team realized that the rescue effort demanded bigger more sophisticated tools, getting help should have been a few clicks on the internet and a phone call away.

 

[lone wolf]

Also I'd expect that the government departments are going to want to look into how this disaster was handled and make recommendations for improvements.

That was the six o'clock news yesterday.

Personally I think that anyone who owns a piece of heavy equipment should be able to register their services in a database which can be consulted in the event of a disaster. When the emergency team realized that the rescue effort demanded bigger more sophisticated tools, getting help should have been a few clicks on the internet and a phone call away.

Getting help on a weekend is never easy

 

[earth_as_one]

Disasters can be inconvenient.

What I'd like to see is a registry of resources available on a moment's notice which can be consulted by bureaucrats.

The proposed federal budget cuts to disaster preparedness programs means that we will have few people and resources available to death with disasters.