Love Of Our Neighbour

[sanctus]

Perhaps we should leave everything up to some god or other. Of course if it was the Christian god and it was real, the SOB would be cooked according to a few verses in the OT of the holey bible.
Anyway, nice treatment does not in any way seem justified for the suffering caused.

Old sod. Not true at all. Are you turning into AJ, pulling stuff from here, there and everywhere to support a preconceived point of view?

 

[L Gilbert]

Old sod. Not true at all. Are you turning into AJ, pulling stuff from here, there and everywhere to support a preconceived point of view?

Not hardly. I don't know very many. the one in Genesis 9:5,6 about man shedding man's blood and the Psalms one. about the walkabout in the valley of the shadow. Makes for pretty short posts.

 

[talloola]

after the crime, NOTHING will bring a sense of fairness to the family, i'm sure of that. But beating/hurting or killing the wrongdoer won't help at all.
Your idea of (beating/hurting or killing the wrongdoer) is very different to my idea. I have a totally
different mind set for this crime. "Jessica" is dead, he killed her, "now" for me, that automatically
puts the responsibility on the crime "doer" to pay his debt to her. He killed her, now he must accept
the fact that he must "willingly" die for that crime. No -beating/hurting/killing, just "justice", as he
walks to his resting place, totally with the understanding that he is doing it for "Jessica". He must
give up his "right" to walk on this earth, as he forced her to give up her right to walk on this earth.
It is so "simple" for me, I have no anxiety about it, it is automatic.

 

[hermanntrude]

after the crime, NOTHING will bring a sense of fairness to the family, i'm sure of that. But beating/hurting or killing the wrongdoer won't help at all.
Your idea of (beating/hurting or killing the wrongdoer) is very different to my idea. I have a totally
different mind set for this crime. "Jessica" is dead, he killed her, "now" for me, that automatically
puts the responsibility on the crime "doer" to pay his debt to her. He killed her, now he must accept
the fact that he must "willingly" die for that crime. No -beating/hurting/killing, just "justice", as he
walks to his resting place, totally with the understanding that he is doing it for "Jessica". He must
give up his "right" to walk on this earth, as he forced her to give up her right to walk on this earth.
It is so "simple" for me, I have no anxiety about it, it is automatic.

do you think that's likely? Do u suppose he's just goig to walk calmly to his death, believing it all to be for the best? I have never seen an execution and i hope i never do but i very strongly suspect it isnt the noble, head held high walk into the light portrayed in the movies. i suspect people have to be forced into the chair screaming and crying and begging, i suspect the whole process is brutal and vile.

 

[talloola]

Speaking of anger, I left this thread the other day feeling pretty...um...angry...well...miffed I guess. I was frustrated by what I had read, and felt a whole pile of feelings which at the time weren't really being expressed in an overly productive way. I don't back down from the statements I made...but, regardless, I probably went too far in some of my rhetoric. Anyway, I thought about things all night and the next day and came home and decided to kind of capsulate what I was thinking and what I was feeling, and tried to put in a post...I started it's own thread...a thread that has gotten very off track...but, hey, that's eh okay. But I thought I would repost what I put in that thread, in hopes it will explain part of what I was trying to express but wasn't coming quite right, to explain why I was frustrated, why I was angry, why I was so challenging and forceful. In writing it, I learnt some things, reflected on some things, came to some realizations myself, came to understand that I can be as guilty of the things I wrote as ANY one. Anyway....here it is....

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Loving thy neighbour. It sounds so easy. But, it’s really quite complicated. I mean, first off, we have to look at what love is, exactly. Each person has their own definition, I believe. But, I think there are some universals in that definition. For example, can you love someone that you have pity on. Can you love someone that you also call a sinner. Can you say that someone will go to hell if they don’t conform to the ideas that you interpret and still love them. Can exude a sense of superiority towards someone…and still love them. Can you really love someone when you believe that if they act like who they are, they are committing huge sins, and are taking part in evil practices? Can you really love someone even when they feel guilt or negative feelings based on how you view them? Can you love someone while judging them? Can you really be loving someone if you would like to see them completely change, or completely give up who they are, or who they were? Is it really love if you are tossing their beliefs out the window because you believe your beliefs are the only true beliefs? Can you love your neighbour if you don’t understand your neighbour? If you have ideas about your neighbour that are completely based in lies or falsehoods, and you are judging them on those…can you really be loving your neighbour? Can you really love someone who’s ideas you would prefer to see oppressed?

Isn’t love acceptance? Isn’t love trust? Isn’t love understanding? Isn’t love looking at someone on an equal level? Isn’t love free from judging? Isn’t love free from trying to change someone…either aggressively or passive aggressively? Isn’t love about feeling good, feeling free? If you say you love someone, but then call them a sinner…are you REALLY loving that person? Now they have the yolk (sp?) of judgement around their neck. That’s not love! Isn’t part of love being able to be yourself around the person who loves you…not having to change or be someone you are not??

To me, THIS is loving thy neighbour. This is not the loving thy neighbour that I have often been presented with in these forums. I think it is a good goal to love thy neighbour. It’s a hard goal. It’s challenging…very challenging. It’s probably something we all will not be able to complete accomplish in our lives. But, that doesn’t mean we don’t have to at least try. But it is important to look at the impact we are having…and look at the love we are trying to give, and try to make sure it is love! We could call a million things love…but…if you are giving love and it’s causing more harm than good…maybe it’s time to look at your definition of love.

Every time someone says, or defends the concept of people coming from other countries having to abandon their culture, their beliefs, their ways to be Canadian…I don’t see love at all. Every time someone calls a gay or lesbian a sinner for being the way they are NOT by choice, but because that is the way they are…I don’t see love. Everytime someone says that the love between a man and a woman is some how stronger or more legitimate than the love between two gay men or two lesbian women, I don’t see love. Everytime someone says that when someone has done wrong, that they should just be locked up and have the key thrown away…I don’t see love. Everytime I hear someone say that other religions are not valid, only one…I don’t see love.

Ask yourself, as I will continue to, do you REALLY want to love thy neighbour….or do you just like that snappy little catch phrase? I haven’t been Mr. Rosy sunshine, expressing love and such in these forums too much. I can be judgemental just as much as anyone else, and I can learn from what I am saying as well…I will say that. It’s a growing process. It’s life long learning exercise. How can we have true, positive, helpful love for the people who surround us…our neighbours, our friends, our fellow citizens, our families. How do we overcome negative feelings, judgement calls, hurt feelings, etc. How does our beliefs or our religion fit into all of this. What your god teaching you? Is it really static…or is it open for interpretation to allow you to REALLY show love for thy neighbour?

I think it is absolutely impossible to love "your" neighbor in the "perfect" sense. And, what a boring
earth/life this would be, if we all had perfect patience and understanding with everyone. We
wouldn't know how good we have it, cause there would be no bad, and we would all be running
around being quite "sickening" and "gushy" trying to be so nice to everyone. Give me a break.

I don't love everyone. I "do" tolerate most people, and try to understand their point of view, but
I'm not always successful. I do not want to be like some "groups" in this world, who turn the other
cheek for anyone and everyone, and will not stand up for themselves.

But, if I think hard and try to put myself far "above" the earth, in my thoughts, and see everyone
down there living their lives, and trying to survive, and all the crazy things that some people are doing to each other, it is unbelievable and seems downright insane, but I do feel a "certain" closeness to all, and I guess that is "loving thy neighbor" in a sense, but together, we have to struggle and strive for our position,and a little "spirit" in conversation, and some disagreement is good for the soul. I'm not religious, and some of the "religious rules" sent down through the bible irritate me, as they are not suited to our modern day, there is no way, the bible can progress through time and fit in to our lives today,and our lives today have many" awful habits" that shouldn't have developed as they have harmed our present day lives, so we can't have the perfect balance that would be constructive to everyday lives of modern day people.
I am a flexible thinker, and I understand the side of the believers, and would like them to
understand and accept my side of life too.

 

[talloola]

do you think that's likely? Do u suppose he's just goig to walk calmly to his death, believing it all to be for the best? I have never seen an execution and i hope i never do but i very strongly suspect it isnt the noble, head held high walk into the light portrayed in the movies. i suspect people have to be forced into the chair screaming and crying and begging, i suspect the whole process is brutal and vile.

Of course it isn't, but for me, it is. "However" he would want to walk to his death, is his decision,
he can walk, head held high, or be dragged kicking and screaming, it is his decision, but the result
will be the same, it has nothing to do with anyone else, it is his doing, he decided his time
to die, when he killed her, he made the decision for his future, there is no doubt for me there at all.
OK, I'm going elsewhere now, I see there is too much posting here from me, and I'm
getting sick of myself here, and I'm sure everyone else is too, have a good night.

 

[m_levesque]

Is there a limit though? Can we, through loving our neighbour, tolerate sinful behaviour in thet neighbour? Should we point that out to them, in love?

Forgiveness is about you, it is about letting go of your anger,hatred and despair. Forgiveness will heal you.Let God worry about the sins of the your neighbour.

 

[m_levesque]

You already made your point. Respectfully, wouldn't it be best just to allow him to rant, and focus instead on the point of St. John Vianney's comments on loving your neighbour?

Or just ignore him as we have been doing. He adds nothing of value to these types of conversations. His entire purpose is to attack and insult. These make him feel like he is a man.

 

[sanctus]

Or just ignore him as we have been doing. He adds nothing of value to these types of conversations. His entire purpose is to attack and insult. These make him feel like he is a man.

Saddly true.

 

[snfu73]

Face it, in the face of challenge, you guys just get pissed off. I think I have made good points, solid points...points that you don't wish to respond to...that is up to you...but I don't feel that I am just here to attack or cause trouble or whatever...I am here presenting opinions, thoughts, feelings, points, etc just like anyone else in a public forum. You can be childish and send emails around and tell people not to respond to me...that's fine...I don't care. I still am participating in these forums. I get frustrated at times...and I can be blunt...that is my style. Again, you don't have to like it, you can ignore me. That's up to you. If you just want to see what I am saying as merely being rants...well...again, that is your interpretation...and god knows I seldom agree with your interpretation of things...from the bible, to native issues, to immigration issues, to crime issues, etc. But, that is what makes the world go around...that we all have different opinions...and that sometimes the discussion around those opinions can be heated, or cause friction or cause strong emotions of some sort. But, again, as I have said before, it would be pretty darn boring if we all just came in here and said "Oh sanctus, what a wonderful post, you are so brilliant.". You commended Chief Clarence Louie, I am interpreting that it is because of his straight forward, no bull talk regarding native issues...yet, when that same straight forward, direct tone is used towards you, you send emails around telling people not to respond to me, as if you, yourself are some kind of great leader who has the power to bring about a boycott of things that you don't like and feel that your followers shouldn't like either. Well, guess what...you are but a man, like I am. You are no better than me...you are no worse. In fact, you are VERY intelligent and very interesting. It's too bad that you don't listen to others very much when you don't agree with them, but that seems to be your style...what can I say. Your wisdom will only develop so far if you see anyone who challenges you as being a trouble maker, a ranter, someone not to be listened to. But, that is up to you. If when challenged you just want to pull away, and surround yourself with yes people...suit yourself...that's up to you.

 

[snfu73]

Furthermore, I think we could have some pretty interesting conversations. I think that we have completely different ideas about life, the world, etc...I think that could make for some pretty interesting debate, and I wish you wouldn't completely write me off. I think we could learn from eachother a great deal. I know I have learnt from you in what I have read. I don't always like what I read and express it when I don't....BUT...obviously, I have learnt from this thread a great deal...it has had me thinking ALOT over the last few days here. It has triggered alot of feelings and emotions. I have both gotten angry and defensive with you on it, and I have also thought about the way I approached you in relation to the subject, I have thought about the things that I can do better. I mean, this was a very good post. I have been critical...but it's not about the original post. You posted something good. But I did want to link it back to things that I saw you write that caused emotion within me. But then, going BACK to this thread, I thought a great deal about what I was doing...as much as what you and others were doing...and I presented those thoughts and feelings, etc. So, whether you are ignoring me or not, it doesn't matter...you are still having an impact on me, and I'm still reading and learning. Like I said, I don't agree with you a majority of the time it seems....BUT I do see you as a very intelligent, very interesting person, and I wish that we could have some actual debate here as opposed to just being ignored by you, and then me pissing you off more to get you to want to ignore me more and then the more you ignore me the more I focus on all this and....wellll...it's a big spiral anyway.

 

[sanctus]

Or just ignore him as we have been doing. He adds nothing of value to these types of conversations. His entire purpose is to attack and insult. These make him feel like he is a man.

Furthermore Michael, stay with this agenda. We have seen too many like him. It isn't worth the time to read, respond or reply to these sorts of biased opinions. He has a preset agenda which will not be swayed in discussions. He seeks only a foundation to build his house of prejudice and lies upon.

 

[Curiosity]

Good Morning Sanctus.....

Re Snfu....and your words in the message just above this....

Have you forgotten some people do not know how to ask for help other than in frustration and anger?

Many have no idea what they are angry about and feel they can divert their anger into a "reason" such as another person's opinion or belief ... or faith.

His first message - although edited by the moderators - why it is still there I have no idea

Oh for FRICK SAKES! You are one piece of work Sanctus. After your crap in the FIFA vs Quebec thread, you have the NERVE to post this...and say the crap you are saying. <snip>

At first I was angry, then appalled - and then realized he may have been in touch with anger he didn't have any reason for.... and your message lit a fire.....

 

[sanctus]

Good Morning Sanctus.....

Re Snfu....and your words in the message just above this....

Have you forgotten some people do not know how to ask for help other than in frustration and anger?

Many have no idea what they are angry about and feel they can divert their anger into a "reason" such as another person's opinion or belief ... or faith.

Yes, I know that. However, there is a certain level everyone reaches when they must realize that frequent and constant abuse will not be tolerated. In other words, your issues do not give you license to abuse me or attack me. In a one to one situation, for example, such behaviour would make me cancel the sessions until such a time as dialogue could be established. I am not, in person, going to sit hour after hour with someone allowing that person to insult me, abuse me or my beliefs, or ridicule me. That is not dialogue and that is unproductive.

On the internet, I am not required to tolerate such behaviour for any reason. None of us are. Since this is a leisure activity, I feel I have the perfect right to engage in conversations, or not, as it suits me and with whom it suits me.

 

[Curiosity]

Sanctus

I am not suggesting you "handle" his words.... I am trying to point out the anger may have been directed at you but you were not the cause....

There is no reason why any of us should be insulted for what we believe and how we live.... but it is done on a regular basis.

You have every right to ignore commentary like that - I was not suggesting you try to work out a dialogue - I believe he has to do that on his own - and want to.

 

[selfactivated]

Yes, I know that. However, there is a certain level everyone reaches when they must realize that frequent and constant abuse will not be tolerated. In other words, your issues do not give you license to abuse me or attack me. In a one to one situation, for example, such behaviour would make me cancel the sessions until such a time as dialogue could be established. I am not, in person, going to sit hour after hour with someone allowing that person to insult me, abuse me or my beliefs, or ridicule me. That is not dialogue and that is unproductive.

On the internet, I am not required to tolerate such behaviour for any reason. None of us are. Since this is a leisure activity, I feel I have the perfect right to engage in conversations, or not, as it suits me and with whom it suits me.

Im not telling you your wrong because your right. But I attached you in fustration at first too.I hope I was worth the second chance.

 

[sanctus]

Sanctus

I am not suggesting you "handle" his words.... I am trying to point out the anger may have been directed at you but you were not the cause....

There is no reason why any of us should be insulted for what we believe and how we live.... but it is done on a regular basis.

You have every right to ignore commentary like that - I was not suggesting you try to work out a dialogue - I believe he has to do that on his own - and want to.

You do make a very good case! Frankly, I can tell the fellow Pysch. grads

 

[sanctus]

Im not telling you your wrong because your right. But I attached you in fustration at first too.I hope I was worth the second chance.

Very true. Thank you. And you were not alone in the action. I didn't exactly rush at you with understanding at first either...remember

 

[Curiosity]

Dear Sanctus

There is very little in the "books" which match the strange things in real life....

Know you are loved here.... and the reactive anger of some does not take away from your desire to
have profitable and positive friendships with people from all walks of life..... which will enrich your
own field of knowledge and caring....

Have a serene day...

 

[selfactivated]

Very true. Thank you. And you were not alone in the action. I didn't exactly rush at you with understanding at first either...remember

That was then and this is now We're past that.