Liberals Preparing For A Summer Election

pegger

Electoral Member
Dec 4, 2008
397
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Mulroney and Wilson should get credit for laying the ground work, which lead us out of the deficit hole. They introduced the GST, and FTA which both resulted in tax revenues to increase, and thus, help decrease the deficit and the debt. However, Mulroney did NOT cut any of the "expensive" programs that Trudeau introduced - so the deficit and debt should still be (partly) attributed to him.

Chretien should get credit for not cancelling the GST (stupid promise anyways), and for making the tough choices of downloading and cutting government expenditures, while paying off the debt. (Mulroney COULD have cut more, or downloaded - but didn't - which is also why we ran $40 B a year deficits (federally))

Harper gets credit for blowing it all, for cheap partisan gain (increased government by 2x rate of inflation, increased transfer payments, plus reduced taxes when there was still a debt to pay - double minus).
 

johnnyhangover

now with added fiber!
Feb 20, 2009
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www.dreadfulmonkey.com
Mulroney and Wilson should get credit for laying the ground work, which lead us out of the deficit hole. They introduced the GST, and FTA which both resulted in tax revenues to increase, and thus, help decrease the deficit and the debt. However, Mulroney did NOT cut any of the "expensive" programs that Trudeau introduced - so the deficit and debt should still be (partly) attributed to him.

Chretien should get credit for not cancelling the GST (stupid promise anyways), and for making the tough choices of downloading and cutting government expenditures, while paying off the debt. (Mulroney COULD have cut more, or downloaded - but didn't - which is also why we ran $40 B a year deficits (federally))

Harper gets credit for blowing it all, for cheap partisan gain (increased government by 2x rate of inflation, increased transfer payments, plus reduced taxes when there was still a debt to pay - double minus).

pegger=voice of reason
 

Cannuck

Time Out
Feb 2, 2006
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However, economists in general give Chrétien the credit for fixing the economy, for turning 40 billion plus deficit into a ten billion $ surplus. Incidentally, so do Canadians, that is why they gave Liberals three majorities in a row (while Conservatives are struggling to get even one).


Great spin. You could probably work for the Lieberal party. Those of us without a political agenda realize that the Reform were the only ones talking about debt and deficit reduction while the other parties diddled. Klein and Cretin were followers on this particular issue. In fact the Conservative Party's failure to be more aggressive with deficit reduction is what spawned the Reform Party to begin with. The split between the Reform and Conservatives is what led to three consecutive Liberal majorities, not the Liberal record.

If anybody is responsible for eliminating the deficit, it is Preston Manning. Had the Reform party had a more main stream social policy, they would probably be the government today. The only economists that would seriously give the Lieberals credit for slaying the deficit are card carrying Liberals or don't know much about politics.
 

wulfie68

Council Member
Mar 29, 2009
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Mulroney and Wilson should get credit for laying the ground work, which lead us out of the deficit hole. They introduced the GST, and FTA which both resulted in tax revenues to increase, and thus, help decrease the deficit and the debt. However, Mulroney did NOT cut any of the "expensive" programs that Trudeau introduced - so the deficit and debt should still be (partly) attributed to him.

Chretien should get credit for not cancelling the GST (stupid promise anyways), and for making the tough choices of downloading and cutting government expenditures, while paying off the debt. (Mulroney COULD have cut more, or downloaded - but didn't - which is also why we ran $40 B a year deficits (federally))

Harper gets credit for blowing it all, for cheap partisan gain (increased government by 2x rate of inflation, increased transfer payments, plus reduced taxes when there was still a debt to pay - double minus).

Harper should also get the benefit of having with two mitigating factors mentioned with that: a) of being dragged down by the worst global economy since the Great Depression and b) of having to live with minority parliaments as well. He's steering the ship but the opposition controls the speed, which is something Trudeau, Mulroney and Chretien didn't have to labour under all the time. If he would have stood firmer on not spending, we all know damned well the Opposition parties would have had us at the polls, probably more than once more than we've already been.
 

captain morgan

Hall of Fame Member
Mar 28, 2009
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i just checked out Dept. of Finance and they have the Nat'l debt at 170 billion when trudeau left, and 450 billion in 1993. A difference of 280 billion.

According to the Bank of Canada, between 1984 and 1993 the average annual interest rate on the debt was 7.2%. Compounded annually, the 170 billion dollar debt would have increased to over 317 billion on its own. Factor in high unemployment = lower tax revenue and structural deficits and your partisan analysis starts to lose water.

Why was it that the GST was introduced again?

Why were crown corporations sold?

Why free trade?

just for fun, i guess. Certainly not to increase the botton line, and pay down debt.

Give this a read and then get back to me... Oh, by the way, I suppose that based on your assertion that the debt was raised at 7.2%, the long-term 19% (compounding) yield Canadian gvt bonds were counterfeit.

An excerpt:

TRUDEAU: CANADA'S GREAT HELMSMAN
By
Eric S. Margolis 8 October 2000


TORONTO - `Speak not ill of the dead,' the ancient sages cautioned.
Sometimes, however, we must.

As now, when we watch the memory of Pierre Trudeau, who died last week,
being cynically manipulated, grossly distorted, and cloyingly
sentimentalized by his Liberal Party heirs to win votes in upcoming
elections. Trudeau's sainted ghost is to be used like the corpse of the
Spanish hero, El Cid, strapped onto a horse and sent into battle.

Most Canadians have been brainwashed into believing the charming,
charismatic Trudeau was a great prime minister who built a strong,
prosperous, humane Canada that was morally and socially superior to the
United States. This fable was charmingly echoed by the increasingly
leftish Toronto Globe & Mail, in one of many weepy hagiographic tributes to
St. Pierre: `PM Jean Chretien...considers himself the main defender of Mr
Trudeau's liberal vision of a just and compassionate Canada.'

Let me precisely quantify the costs of Trudeau's `just and compassionate
Canada,' both for Canadians who wish to continue Trudeauismo, and for
Americans who are being told by Democrats that socialized Canada offers a
far more successful and humane culture than the USA:

*In 1968, when Trudeau went from rich, socialist professor who had never
held a real job in his life to prime minister, Canada's national debt was a
modest $11.3 billion; the federal deficit was zero. When Trudeau left
office in 1984, the debt had mushroomed to $128 billion; the deficit to $25
billion annually. But this was just the beginning.

*Canada's Great Helmsman created a vast bureaucracy, and massive welfare
programs to buy votes for his Liberal Party. He restricted trade and free
markets, imposing confiscatory taxes.

Trudeau drove Canada so far left that today's opposition Canadian Alliance
- a moderate centrist party by world standards - is routinely termed
`rightwing' or `far right.' The state-owned Canadian Broadcasting Corp
(which I call the Ministry of Truth), teachers unions, the monoculture
leftiss academia, and left-leaning media keep brainwashing Canadians that
high taxes and big government are good for Canada and the essence of
national identity. Anyone who questions rule by bureaucracy, deficit
spending, unlimited immigration, or social engineering is denounced as a
far-right racist.

When Trudeau entered office, Ottawa spent 30% of Canada's total economic
output(the same as the USA). When he left, government spending had
skyrocketed to almost 53%. With half of Canadians working directly or
indirectly for Ottawa, the nation became infected with bureaucratic and
union work ethics - state-sponsored laziness.

Trudeau and his successor quickly learned a basic strategy of Europe's
socialist governments: if the state can employ over half of voters, they
will always vote for the party of government.

Government is supposed to serve taxpayers. But under Trudeau and his
Liberal Party, it became Canadians who labored to serve an increasingly
disdainful, autocratic government. Canadians were gulled into believing
that when Ottawa taxed them ten dollars, and gave back two, they were
getting `benefits' and `social services.'

Many adored Trudeau - but I'd also be adored if I had a hundred billion of
borrowed taxpayers dollars to give away.

*In 1970, the US, Switzerland, and Canada were the world's three richest
nations. Canada's robust dollar traded around US $1.06 - ie 6% more than
the US dollar. Today, thanks to Trudeau's socialism, and Brian Mulroney's
failure to uproot it, the dollar has sunk to a pathetic, humiliating $ .66
cents.

C$100 invested in Canada in 1970 would be worth only 66 cents today.
Little wonder foreign investment, the lifeblood of Canada's growth, dried
up. Most Canadians didn't understand their assets have depreciated, in
real value, by 33%. By relentlessly devaluing the dollar, Ottawa literally
stole people's savings.

*After Trudeau retired, his unstoppable socialist juggernaut picked up
speed. Canada's federal debt - the amount Ottawa borrowed in the past that
remains unpaid - has skyrocketed to C$ 576 billion - $54,000 per taxpayer.

Almost third of your current federal taxes go to paying interest on this
debt - just like on a credit card with an unpaid balance. In 1999 alone,
Canadians paid $41.5 billion debt interest, four times what Ottawa spent
on defense.

Add $ 2.3 trillion of unfunded pension liabilities, and the figure rises to
a staggering $244,000 owed per taxpayer. Canada's `just' and
`compassionate' society is built on a mountain of debt, passed on to coming
generations.

*In 1970, Canda had one of the lowest debts -and lowest taxes - among
industrial nations. Today, Canada ranks as one of three leading debtor
nations, with socialist-run Belgium and Italy. While Ottawa's annual
deficit was ended by imposing crushing taxes, the monster debt overhang
remains. The US is projected to pay off its entire national debt by 2012.
At Ottawa's puny repayment rate, it will take Canada 288 more years!
 

SirJosephPorter

Time Out
Nov 7, 2008
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Wulfie, the opposition did not ask Harper to fritter away all the Liberal surplus by giving tax cuts disproportionately benefiting the rich (GST cut does precisely that). Liberals, though prudent management, had managed to run surplus of more than 10 billion year after year, who told Harper to get rid of it all?

If he had been running a surplus, the deficit would have been a lot less that it is today. Sometimes Conservative argument defies logic. Mulroney was a genius for introducing the GST, and Harper is a genius for partly getting rid of GST, cutting GST. Go figure.
 

SirJosephPorter

Time Out
Nov 7, 2008
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According to the Bank of Canada, between 1984 and 1993 the average annual interest rate on the debt was 7.2%. Compounded annually, the 170 billion dollar debt would have increased to over 317 billion on its own.

That is just an excuse for not doing anything, Johnny. It would have increased to 317 billion on its own only if Mulroney sat idly by, and he did. And anyway, how does that justify the runaway deficits under Mulroney?

Liberals had to face the same problem. Then they came to office, the debt was growing every year because of the interest paid. But unlike Mulroney, Liberals did not whine about it, they got rid of the deficit in three years.

A true partisan will use all kinds of spin, all kinds of specious argument to try to convince us that white is black and black is white, that east is west and west is east. But again, facts, numbers don’t lie. You evidently looked up the numbers, I was quoting them from memory. Anyway, the debt increased from 170 billion to 450 billion under Mulroney, deficit form 20 billion to 40 billion. Numbers don’t lie.

All the excuses you give as to why Mulroney was right in not reducing the debt and the deficit, were equally valid when Liberals came to power (or maybe they weren’t, depends upon how partisan you are). Still Liberals managed to slay the deficit monster, while Mulroney only managed to feed the monster.
 

pegger

Electoral Member
Dec 4, 2008
397
8
18
Cambridge, Ontario
Harper should also get the benefit of having with two mitigating factors mentioned with that: a) of being dragged down by the worst global economy since the Great Depression and b) of having to live with minority parliaments as well. He's steering the ship but the opposition controls the speed, which is something Trudeau, Mulroney and Chretien didn't have to labour under all the time. If he would have stood firmer on not spending, we all know damned well the Opposition parties would have had us at the polls, probably more than once more than we've already been.

I give you A - but most conservatives also make this "recession" sound like the only recession we ever had - don't remember the Tech bubble? Y2K aftermath?

However, B is a total and complete cop-out.

No one forced Harper to cut the GST by 2 % - He could have continue to pay down the debt by the estimated $24 B for those 2 year. No one forced Harper to increase transfer payments, or to increase government spending by 2x the rate of inflation.

Also, Harper COULD have had a back-bone, and presented his agenda (especially in January of 2009) and if the opposition called no-confidence, then we would have gone back to the polls - and so what? If people agreed with what Harper was doing, then maybe he would have got his precious majority. Instead he treats the electorate with disdain - throwing out "candy" to the masses, acting like a bully to his opposition, and when the going gets a bit tough, buckles like a coward, runs to "mommy" (aka GG) and has been back-peddling ever since.

Yeah, it was easier under the other guys cause they had "complete control" - but you can still battle debt and rampant government spending in a minority government situation, if you are willing to work the other parties, share some of the glory, and gently, but forcefully, push your position.

Harper is NOT for smaller government, or debt repayment. If he was, he would have demonstrated some of that in the past 3 years - which he hasn't. He is for buying his way to a majority. Well, some of us (thankly most of us) see through his BS.
 

captain morgan

Hall of Fame Member
Mar 28, 2009
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yer preachin' to the choir, captain.

although, i admit i don't get your meaning about the bonds.


I wasn't clear on that... Sorry... My comment about the bonds was that I had (personally) Canadian gvt bonds that yielded 19% issued under Trudeau.

For the record, I have gone out and vilified Trudeau - and he deserves it. But Mulroney did his own brand of damage as well and that must be recognized as well.

The point I'm driving at is that partisan politics taints a persons view and no one is entirely immune to this, but the blind faith that the die-hard liberals apply to Trudeau scares the hell out of me in its narrow-mindedness.
 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
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"No one forced Harper to cut the GST by 2 % - He could have continue to pay down the debt by the estimated $24 B for those 2 year. No one forced Harper to increase transfer payments, or to increase government spending by 2x the rate of inflation."- Hindsight is 20/20. The G.S.T. and the Libs withdrawing transfer payments were both very unpopular among the populace and I suspect Harper was just playing politics in doing what he thought the people wanted. As I've said over and over I'm not particularly impressed with Harper but I think he deserves a passing grade of C- BUT should definitely be replaced but at a time when we are absolutely sure of what we are going to get including a majority gov't. I'm not dead set against minority gov't, but we sure as hell don't want an election that will just get us another minority.
 

Liberalman

Senate Member
Mar 18, 2007
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I was listening to Rock FM out of Oshawa and announce said that Harper and Ignatieff reached a tentative deal on Employment Insurance where there is an agreement that this fall the government will set up a panel to discuss and find solution to this problem and Harper will let the Liberals choose two of the blue ribbon panel members.

There will be a further meeting today on the other three demands.

This is just too good to be true, Harper bending this way.

I hope the leader of the Liberal party remembers that the Conservatives have a problem on keeping promises like the fixed election date promise and Harper’s breaking of that promise by calling for the election one year earlier and many others.

One thing about blue ribbon panels, it’s not binding and the Conservatives know this.

Michael Ignatieff wants clarity on stimulus spending; ballooning deficit, medical isotopes shortage and employment insurance reforms

.Michael Ignatieff got the employment answer yesterday so they will meet today to work on the remaining three clarity points.
 

captain morgan

Hall of Fame Member
Mar 28, 2009
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JLM,

During these times (recession), I believe that a majority is gvt is essential in allowing the gvt to make the hard (and often unpopular) decisions. The key is that the policies/decisions need to make sense in both the short and long term.

The high-profile bickering going on betwen the libs and cons is simply posturing... The problem is that this pissing contest may well be at the expense of teh nation.
 

SirJosephPorter

Time Out
Nov 7, 2008
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Ontario
"No one forced Harper to cut the GST by 2 % - He could have continue to pay down the debt by the estimated $24 B for those 2 year. No one forced Harper to increase transfer payments, or to increase government spending by 2x the rate of inflation."- Hindsight is 20/20.

Hindsight is not 20/20, JLM. When Harper proposed the GST cut, the consensus among economists was that it was not a good idea. While economists won’t say if the tax cuts are good or bad (that is the job of politicians), the consensus was that if government must cut taxes, income tax cut would be better.

Personally I would have preferred no tax cut, keep paying down the debt. When there is another economic downturn as we experienced, that surplus would help cushion the blow, and government would be running deficit much lower than the 50 or 60 billion $ it is running today.
 

SirJosephPorter

Time Out
Nov 7, 2008
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This is just too good to be true, Harper bending this way.

Opinion polls have a way of concentrating politician’s minds, Liberalman. Harper is behind in polls, so he wants to postpone an election if possible. So sure he would negotiate. If he had been ahead in the polls, he would have told Ignatieff to get lost and dared him to force an election.
 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
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"Personally I would have preferred no tax cut, keep paying down the debt."- From what you've said in many posts I think it is a fact that your disposable income in the very top percentile among Canadians, so I doubt very much if what you would have preferred, is in any way indicative of the preferences of most Canadians.
 

JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
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This is just too good to be true, Harper bending this way.

Opinion polls have a way of concentrating politician’s minds, Liberalman. Harper is behind in polls, so he wants to postpone an election if possible. So sure he would negotiate. If he had been ahead in the polls, he would have told Ignatieff to get lost and dared him to force an election.

I dare say BUT I don't think CAnadians have an appetite for spending another $300 million at this time for an election and I think Harper probably has bigger fish to fry with the $300 million & that would be a very good reason for not wanting an election.
 

Liberalman

Senate Member
Mar 18, 2007
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JLM

$300 million to get rid of a bumbling government as oppose to a $50 billion deficit and counting to keep the Conservative government, do the math have an election is far cheaper.
 
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JLM

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 27, 2008
75,301
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JLM

$300 million to get rid of a bumbling government as oppose to a $50 billion deficit and counting to keep the Conservative government, do the math have an election is far cheaper.

I doubt it, with the Libs we'd probably still have the $50+billion and then some, better to stick with the Devil we know for awhile, probably the fall of 2010.