Khadr - Pleads Guilty to Terror Charges

[captain morgan]

Funny.... You've already condemned the US on all counts based entirely on assumptions that you see as facts.

Keep telling yourself whatever you need to hear, you'll be the one eating crow in the end.

 

[geiseric]

Either Eaglesmack or Ironsides provided a link to an article that explained why Khadr's confession was acceptable to the courts. The gist is that teh court found that there was no evidence that supported Khadr's claims of torture. In fact, there was a suggestion that these claims were authored by his legal defense team. Expect the Canadian gvt to rely on that ruling.

In the end, Khadr admitted to certain crimes and it will be a very tough sell for a lawyer to convince any court that Khadr should be compensated because he was denied his chance to lie in court...

You missed the point. I'm not talking about what the American system decided. You said the Canadian courts "absolved themselves from any responsibility related to Khadr" and I provided two court rulings where they did just the opposite.

 

[captain morgan]

You missed the point. I'm not talking about what the American system decided. You said the Canadian courts "absolved themselves from any responsibility related to Khadr" and I provided two court rulings where they did just the opposite.

I believe that I got your point. What I am driving at is that the implication of CSIS and therefore the Canadian gvt were done at a time when it was assumed that there was torture to Khadr. The US courts investigated the claim and in their most recent decision, they denied that Khadr's claims of torture that generated his confession di not exist.

That recent decision denying that Khadr was tortured will strongly impact any opportunity for Khadr to suggest otherwise.

Again, there is a strong suggestion that Khadr's claim of torture was heavily influence by his defense team. If this is the case, the entire basis for torture is subject to question... Factor in the reality that any maltreatment was at the hands of the US military and Khadr's case to hold teh Canadian feds responsible is slim to none.

 

[JLM]

Funny.... You've already condemned the US on all counts based entirely on assumptions that you see as facts.

Keep telling yourself whatever you need to hear, you'll be the one eating crow in the end.

Are you slow at "catching on"? - cite me one sentence where I condemned the U.S. It's you that sees "facts" based on assumptions. For about the fourth time I'll repeat............................are you paying attention? I DON'T KNOW THE EXTENT OF OMAR'S GUILT but I do know he was a minor at the time and there isn't enough evidence to justify a 40 year sentence. You flashed a bunch of pictures- absolutely worthless given today's technology in photography. If you keep it up much longer you'll be eating a whole frickin' raven, never mind a crow.

 

[geiseric]

I believe that I got your point. What I am driving at is that the implication of CSIS and therefore the Canadian gvt were done at a time when it was assumed that there was torture to Khadr. The US courts investigated the claim and in their most recent decision, they denied that Khadr's claims of torture that generated his confession di not exist.

That recent decision denying that Khadr was tortured will strongly impact any opportunity for Khadr to suggest otherwise.

Again, there is a strong suggestion that Khadr's claim of torture was heavily influence by his defense team. If this is the case, the entire basis for torture is subject to question... Factor in the reality that any maltreatment was at the hands of the US military and Khadr's case to hold teh Canadian feds responsible is slim to none.

The decision wasn't based on any assumptions or even any claims by Kadhr, it was based on what Canadian interrogators were told by American captors about how he was prepped for the CSIS interrogations. The judge didn't say what it was but was clear what was done is not acceptable by Canadian standards. I don't mind you sticking to your opinions but please stop rewriting history to do it.

 

[captain morgan]

Are you slow at "catching on"? - cite me one sentence where I condemned the U.S. It's you that sees "facts" based on assumptions. For about the fourth time I'll repeat............................are you paying attention?

You want a citation, do ya?.... Post # 75:

You got the picture. Anyone who has been locked up, tortured (Bush himself admitted torture wasn't beyond the realm of possibility) and water boarded for 8 years isn't thinking straight anyway. He should be released NOW under strict conditions.

Tell me that this ins't an outright condemnation and that you haven't passed judgement on the Americans... Hell, you even admit that you don't really know, but that doesn't stop you from assuming that poor wee Omar was mercilessly tortued.

perhaps you'll consider paying a little more attention to what you post.

I DON'T KNOW THE EXTENT OF OMAR'S GUILT but I do know he was a minor at the time and there isn't enough evidence to justify a 40 year sentence. You flashed a bunch of pictures- absolutely worthless given today's technology in photography. If you keep it up much longer you'll be eating a whole frickin' raven, never mind a crow.

have you ever stopped for even one moment to consider that you are applying Western standards to what a "youth" is? Has it ever crossed your mind that Khadr, his family, his faith, the nation where he committed the crime and his terror organization saw him as an adult?

What makes Western (Canadian) standards so much more morally superior to assume that Khadr was not a "man" as he is recognized in his own eyes, his faith, his family and in the eyes of the nation where he committed the crime?

 

[ironsides]

Canadian Federal Court has already ruled that Canada was complicit in Kadhr's torture and the effects of that breach had not been spent. Also,the Supreme Court has already ruled his Charter rights have been violated. I'd hardly can that absolution.

The Canadian courts will go along with what ever deal was made. when he gets there. Any deviation could damage this ever happening again.

 

[JLM]

You want a citation, do ya?.... Post # 75:




Tell me that this ins't an outright condemnation and that you haven't passed judgement on the Americans... Hell, you even admit that you don't really know, but that doesn't stop you from assuming that poor wee Omar was mercilessly tortued.

perhaps you'll consider paying a little more attention to what you post.






have you ever stopped for even one moment to consider that you are applying Western standards to what a "youth" is? Has it ever crossed your mind that Khadr, his family, his faith, the nation where he committed the crime and his terror organization saw him as an adult?

What makes Western (Canadian) standards so much more morally superior to assume that Khadr was not a "man" as he is recognized in his own eyes, his faith, his family and in the eyes of the nation where he committed the crime?

You're grasping at straws and it won't fly. :smile:

 

[captain morgan]

You're grasping at straws and it won't fly. :smile:

Nice non-answer.

Respond to the points.. Tear them apart or rebut the logic, but responding with a shallow comment like the one above is a nothing-answer

The decision wasn't based on any assumptions or even any claims by Kadhr, it was based on what Canadian interrogators were told by American captors about how he was prepped for the CSIS interrogations. The judge didn't say what it was but was clear what was done is not acceptable by Canadian standards. I don't mind you sticking to your opinions but please stop rewriting history to do it.

I don't know what else to say about this... Canadian standards mean nothing outside of Canada and the federal gvt will not be held responsible for a differential in "standards" applied by other nations around the globe.

 

[JLM]

Nice non-answer.

Respond to the points.. Tear them apart or rebut the logic, but responding with a shallow comment like the one above is a nothing-answer





.

You don't understand logic, so quit handing me a bunch of hare brained crap, I've told you my position ad infinitum.

Some bedtime reading for the Capt. and his ilk.

FBI files detail Guantánamo torture tactics | World news | guardian.co.uk

 

[captain morgan]

You don't understand logic, so quit handing me a bunch of hare brained crap, I've told you my position ad infinitum.

Some bedtime reading for the Capt. and his ilk.

FBI files detail Guantánamo torture tactics | World news | guardian.co.uk

Yeah, that must be it.... All you've done is post your bias over and over and somehow pretend it's not wildly judgmental and entirely unfounded

CM - Do you have a clear idea of how the Father ruled the family -Take a kid and preach, punish and reward for Jihad - What do you think you end up with - One fuked up kid.

I don't disagree with the above comment, however, how far does our society take this event... How heinous must the crimes be before society denies absolution? How far must I stretch to accept the multiplicity of excuses for the actions of Khadr? Omar was/is a pawn in someone else's game, but that does not change the fact of what he has not only been accused of, but all those things that he has done.


... And yes, I do see the irony in my above statement that assumes he has done other things outside of what he's been formally accused of, but what frustrates me to no end is that it is this very logic and treatment that the US military has been subjected to in this debate.

Did the military torture him?..
Probably, but the world decides that probably is to be interpreted as factual.

Did Khadr participate in heinous crimes outside of the grenade event (see pics of Omar with trophies of severed hands)?
Probably, but the world elects to invoke the ideal of innocent until proven guilty (despite pictorial evidence).

Do you see the double standard?

Lastly, Khadr is deliberately straddling the cultural fence on this issue. He has taken a surgical approach in picking and choosing only the upside components as they serve his specific ends.

Khadr is teh epitome of one that demands all of the "rights" in society but associates no responsibilities with those rights.

As to the US -They are not always the most credible when making claims of No Torture - Would you agree or disagree?

Yes I would agree.

Now a question for you.. Do you think that it is possible for someone to be beyond salvage?

 

[geiseric]

The Canadian courts will go along with what ever deal was made. when he gets there. Any deviation could damage this ever happening again.

Since it's a treaty arrangement the courts will have nothing to do with it as long as everything plays by the numbers but it's probably a good idea to not get Kadhr's dander up.

 

[DaSleeper]

If the crime was commited against the USA, he was sentenced in the USA.......

Why should the Canadian taxpayer pay for his room and board for the rest of his life or however long his sentence is....

As far as I'm concerned the US can keep him.

Canadians of convenience.....

 

[Retired_Can_Soldier]

The photo with the hands is a fake.

Omar Khadr's confession is not. As for the US compounding his insanity. I guess they could have just let him go. I wonder what he's be doing now if that had happened? I think he'd be working with children as a teacher.

 

[ironsides]

I am sure a great teacher, leading his students against the infidels.

 

[earth_as_one]

Canada has not acted to protect human rights in the case of Omar Khadr. Omar Khadr was a child soldier and that makes him a victim under international law. As per these laws, which Canada has officially accepted, Khadr should have been rehabilitated and re-integrated into society. Instead he was imprisoned, tortured and abused in violation of international laws regarding the treatment of child soldiers. Canada and US actions in this case are a disgrace.

 

[Retired_Can_Soldier]

If Canada doesn't act to protect human rights in the case of Omar Khadr, then our country is no better than terrorists who also don't care about human rights. Omar Khadr was a child soldier and that makes him a victim under international law. As per these laws, which Canada has officially accepted, Khadr should have been rehabilitated and re-integrated into society. Instead he was imprisoned, tortured and abused in violation of international laws regarding the treatment of child soldiers. Canada and US actions in this case are a disgrace.

I do not condone torture, but we are anything but the same or no better than the terrorist who don't care about human rights. That is rhetoric and nothing more. If you download music you are no better than the mafia killer who places a gun against the temple of his victim. If you watch porn you are no better than the likes of Paul Bernardo.

A little perspective please.

As for our responsibility to reintegrate him back into society I am afraid that the boat might well have sailed in that regard.

Where will he stay? With his fun loving Canada Hating Family, the folks who turned a blind eye when "Daddy the Maniac" dragged him across the world so he could be turned into what he is now/

Omar Khadr is a sad example of what a religious cult can do to a child.

Yes I said cult. David Koresh was not a Christian anymore than Osama bin Laden is a Muslim.

Anyone who follows these false prophets are to be pitied as the fools that they are.

So I guess the question is this.

If we are to observe human rights in the Khadr case, how would you propose we rehabilitate him without infringing on his rights?

 

[earth_as_one]

The Canadian government's actions are far more serious than downloading music or porn.

When a fifteen year old Canadian child is being tortured and abused by a foreign government, the Canadian government has a legal and moral responsibility to assist the Canadian child. Instead our government choose to ignore Khadr's legal rights and assist the foreign torturers and abusers.

Omar Khadr's father took him to Afghanistan as a child to fight in the Afghan civil war. Omar Khadr was legally a child soldier.

When Omar Khadr went to Afghanistan, Canada had no policy regarding the Afghan civil war. After 9/11, after Khadr was already fighting as a child soldier with the Taliban, Canada declared war on the Taliban. At that point any Canadians already fighting with the Taliban including Khadr became our enemies. I doubt 15 year old Khadr was in a position to return home to Canada or switch sides.

BTW, the Taliban had nothing to do with 9/11 and are on record as condemning it.
CNN.com - Taliban diplomat condemns attacks - September 12, 2001

The US attacked the Taliban because they refused to handover people the US alleged were involved in events of 9/11 for torture and execution. Instead they demanded proof first. Rather than negotiating with the Taliban, the US attacked the Taliban.

The Taliban never came to Canada or the US to attack us. Canada and the US went to Afghanistan and attacked them, which gives the Taliban the right to defend themselves.

The US classified their adversaries in Afghanistan as unlawful combatants. No other country recognizes that classification, and its obvious use was to obscure US circumvention of international laws regarding the treatment of POWs. The US abused, tortured and summarily executed Taliban POWs.

When hostile foreigners (Americans) attacked the compound where Omar Khadr was living, the occupants understandably fought back rather than surrender for abuse, torture and summary execution. The survivors including 15 year old Omar Khadr were then classified as illegal combatants and tortured/abused for years.

Both Canada and the US have acted immorally and illegally regarding Omar Khadr. Maybe Khadr could have been rehabilitated soon after his capture, but I doubt that's possible now.

I'd say Omar Khadr is more of a sad example of what years of torture and abuse can do to a child.

Khadr should remain locked up until he is deemed not a threat to society. If he ever is released, he should be compensated for the years of illegal abuse, torture and detention. The torturers and abusers as well as those Canadians who complicit in Khadr's illegal and immoral treatment should be held accountable for their actions.

 

[Retired_Can_Soldier]

The Canadian government's actions are far more serious than downloading music or porn.

When a fifteen year old Canadian child is being tortured and abused by a foreign government, the Canadian government has a legal and moral responsibility to assist the Canadian child. Instead our government choose to ignore Khadr's legal rights and assist the foreign torturers and abusers.

Well we should go back and speak to Mr. Martin and his Predecessor Mr. Chretien about that.

Omar Khadr's father took him to Afghanistan as a child to fight in the Afghan civil war. Omar Khadr was legally a child soldier.

I totally a agree his Father was a scumbag, but then the world is full of scumbag Fathers who indocrinate their kids into all sorts of heinous things.

When Omar Khadr went to Afghanistan, Canada had no policy regarding the Afghan civil war. After 9/11, after Khadr was already fighting as a child soldier with the Taliban, Canada declared war on the Taliban. At that point any Canadians already fighting with the Taliban including Khadr became our enemies. I doubt 15 year old Khadr was in a position to return home to Canada or switch sides.

So should we chase down all the scumbags who do this with their kids, because we are in for a hell of a lot of work.

BTW, the Taliban had nothing to do with 9/11 and are on record as condemning it.
CNN.com - Taliban diplomat condemns attacks - September 12, 2001

The US attacked the Taliban because they refused to handover people the US alleged were involved in events of 9/11 for torture and execution. Instead they demanded proof first. Rather than negotiating with the Taliban, the US attacked the Taliban.

The Taliban never came to Canada or the US to attack us. Canada and the US went to Afghanistan and attacked them, which gives the Taliban the right to defend themselves.

The US classified their adversaries in Afghanistan as unlawful combatants. No other country recognizes that classification, and its obvious use was to obscure US circumvention of international laws regarding the treatment of POWs. The US abused, tortured and summarily executed Taliban POWs.

When hostile foreigners (Americans) attacked the compound where Omar Khadr was living, the occupants understandably fought back rather than surrender for abuse, torture and summary execution. The survivors including 15 year old Omar Khadr were then classified as illegal combatants and tortured/abused for years.

Both Canada and the US have acted immorally and illegally regarding Omar Khadr. Maybe Khadr could have been rehabilitated soon after his capture, but I doubt that's possible now.

Maybe we could have prevented 911, maybe Stevie Ray Vaughan shouldn't have ridden in a helicopter.

I'd say Omar Khadr is more of a sad example of what years of torture and abuse can do to a child.

So his Dad had nothing to do with this eh.

Khadr should remain locked up until he is deemed not a threat to society. If he ever is released, he should be compensated for the years of illegal abuse, torture and detention. The torturers and abusers as well as those Canadians who complicit in Khadr's illegal and immoral treatment should be held accountable for their actions.

Yes compensate him ,then he can be sued for wrongful death.

 

[Spade]

He was a child soldier.