It Can Happen only in Texas.

[SirJosephPorter]

Greens are good Sirrup but - one lousy red by one irate poster can really knock you down a good number of notches. At the top of a post, there is the word "rep". Here you can give a good or bad report about a poster. I didn't know how to do that until this moment and I actually clicked on it on your post. Sorry - I didn't give you a good or bad. I just looked. ;-)

Islandpacific, it really doesn’t matter to me if I get greens or reds (considering how many posters I have made mad here, it is surprising that I haven’t got any reds). Writing a good post is its own reward, regardless of how others perceive it.

It is just that the number (reputations received) has been steadily mounting, and I just wanted to make sure that it is nothing to worry about.

 

[RanchHand]

"woman having an education was considered an abomination. A woman working outside home was considered an abomination. Two homosexuals getting married, a woman, lawyer, woman doctor, woman scientist, woman engineer was consider something revolting, an abomination inspired by the Devil himself."

Above is your quote with as it would appear if you were a tad more straight forward in what your saying. Bad enough you try and piggyback gay rights on the backs of the Americans who created the black civil rights movement in the middle of the last century. But female engineers?? Female engineers were "inspired by the Devil himself"?

Six countries legalize homosexual marriage. So you need to direct your post at America because to do so for any and all reasons is a part of the Canadian psych and it comes so naturally you're not even conscious of it. So are the nearly 95% of the countries who don't legalize such marriage also populated by bigots or is it just the US? How about the Canadians who are against it. Bigots? I'm against illegal immigration too. Makes me a racist right?

 

[SirJosephPorter]

I'm against illegal immigration too. Makes me a racist right?

RanchHand, illegal immigration is an American issue, it doesn’t concern Canada. Personally, I am glad that there is the huge big country of USA separating Mexico from Canada, so that they don’t come and bother us.

So are the nearly 95% of the countries who don't legalize such marriage also populated by bigots or is it just the US?

Sure six countries have legalized homosexual marriage. However, most of the developed world (Europe, Australia, New Zealand etc.) has approved civil unions for gays. These civil unions give gays all the rights of a married couple; it is marriage except in name only.

I would say with civil union, gays are about 95% there. I have no doubt that the countries who have legalized civil unions will eventually give gays the right to marry; it is only a question of time.

Contrast this with USA, where forget about civil unions, many states don’t even give gays protection against discrimination. Only a handful states have passed legislation outlawing discrimination against gays. What this means is that in the states where there is no such protection (and this constitutes most of USA), a gay person can be fired from his job or thrown out of his apartment just because he is gay, for no other reason.

Indeed, up until very recently, sodomy was a crime in Texas, punishable by 10 years of imprisonment, until US Supreme Court put a stop to the insanity.

So don’t equate US with the rest of developed world when it comes to gay rights. Compared to Europe, Australia or New Zealand, US is still in the Stone Age as far as gay rights are concerned.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

But female engineers?? Female engineers were "inspired by the Devil himself"?

Why certainly, that was the attitude all over the world say, 50 or 100 years ago. Anyway, let us look at my statement with your addition to it, (about gay marriage).

"woman having an education was considered an abomination. A woman working outside home was considered an abomination. Two homosexuals getting married, a woman, lawyer, woman doctor, woman scientist, woman engineer was consider something revolting, an abomination inspired by the Devil himself."

All the rest of the ’abominations’ turned out to be without foundation. We have women working outside home (sometimes earning more than their husbands), we have women engineers, doctors, scientist etc. there was nothing horrifying about any of these.

My point is that it is the same with gay marriage. At one time it was considered an abomination (and it is still considered so over most of USA). But that means nothing. The fact that it is considered an abomination by most Americans does not necessarily mean that gay marriage is a bad thing (no worse than women engineers, doctors, scientists etc).

 

[Unforgiven]

People love to complain don't they? The two women in the picture, and they are of course women, don't bother me nor would it bother me if they were men. I think I've moved beyond that now. Someone loves another, these days that's not a bad status. What with so many lonely hearts come St.Valentines Day and all.

That Texas would try and use the courts to attack someone on the basis of their sexual orientation is simply an indication of just how backward some places in still America are. More so that they wouldn't simply run the idiot who suggest the legal action out of town on a rail.

PDA is just that a display of affection. Granted some people feel the need to make a spectacle of themselves out in public over it but when an identifiable group is so suppressed for so long, it takes a while for them to find an even keel and begin to go about the business of a normal life.

I hold hands, hug and kiss my wife while out in public. We can manage to save most of the kink for the bedroom. But then again, we're the norm that slowly grows to engulf all kinds of things that were considered odd or taboo at one time.

It takes time to grow up. Your patients is a virtue.

 

[RanchHand]

Civil unions? So now the thread topic has changed midstream

"Contrast this with USA, where forget about civil unions, many states don’t even give gays protection against discrimination. Only a handful states have passed legislation outlawing discrimination against gays. What this means is that in the states where there is no such protection (and this constitutes most of USA), a gay person can be fired from his job or thrown out of his apartment just because he is gay, for no other reason."

There are more people living in states in the US where civil unions are legal than the entire population of Canada. Now that you know that let's see you single out another country for your attack against bigots.

"most of USA), a gay person can be fired from his job or thrown out of his apartment just because he is gay, for no other reason."

You've said this in so many words in many posts. There are federal laws that prevent this. There are laws that deal with physical crimes against gays. Can you give me a few examples where in the US someone was thrown out of his apartment or fired because they were a homosexual?
Since you say this can happen in most of the USA, it shouldn't be too hard to come up with some examples.

 

[ironsides]

You are right when you say protection for anyone in the U.S. is weak and up to whatever the majority wants, usually though the right thing is done. We are not a country ruled by the minority, but the majority. Could this concept lead to trouble of course, as the same sex marriage decision did in California. The California Supreme Court rammed their first decision that people of the same sex could marry down the people throat, wrong way to do it. They did it by making their decision in June 2008, if they had waited till after the Nov. 2008 elections this wouldn't be the controversy it is now. That is why the public backlash and it was defeated by 52%. Would the vote have gone the other way, who knows, but 52% is pretty close. We shall see how this comes out.

Since the majority write and enforce the laws, I side with majority rule.

 

[ironsides]

Someday all this will change, but not now. I would never consider comparing gay marriage with women engineers, doctors etc.. When you use the word marriage, you are bringing a persons faith into the situation, it is then more than a male/female issue. Since most established mainstream religions have set that marriage is between man and women, then we have a issue. Courts define Civil issues, not religious issues thus one reason we have separation church and state. But as I said all that is starting to change, same sex marriage is just a little premature in our evolution. Does not mean that what Canada did shows any more or less enlightenment. Much easier to do with 1/10th the population.

 

[Zzarchov]

The number of nations who recognize/don't recognize gay marriage is a rather silly arguement.

At one point all nations endorsed slavery, and then one didn't..then another..until there were six (as some magic number), then 10, 20 and now its almost all of them.

According to the Ethnographic Atlas Codebook, of the 1231 societies noted, 186 were monogamous. 453 had occasional polygyny, 588 had more frequent polygyny, and 4 had polyandry.

Ergo, according to your logic, I suppose monogamous marriages are morally wrong since more societies are polygamous by a ratio of nearly 10 to 1?

 

[RanchHand]

The number of nations who recognize/don't recognize gay marriage is a rather silly arguement.

At one point all nations endorsed slavery, and then one didn't..then another..until there were six (as some magic number), then 10, 20 and now its almost all of them.

According to the Ethnographic Atlas Codebook, of the 1231 societies noted, 186 were monogamous. 453 had occasional polygyny, 588 had more frequent polygyny, and 4 had polyandry.

Ergo, according to your logic, I suppose monogamous marriages are morally wrong since more societies are polygamous by a ratio of nearly 10 to 1?

In this thread gay marriage has been compared to the black civil rights movement, women sufferage, socceer moms and female engineers. Now you're using slavery as a point of argument? Unlike Canadians, I disagree that the denial of homosexuals the right to marriage is akin to the denial of certain humans their freedom as in slavery

 

[Unforgiven]

In this thread gay marriage has been compared to the black civil rights movement, women sufferage, socceer moms and female engineers. Now you're using slavery as a point of argument? Unlike Canadians, I disagree that the denial of homosexuals the right to marriage is akin to the denial of certain humans their freedom as in slavery

So. The point is that almost everyone is moving on. You're free to sit where you are refusing to change your thinking on things that don't affect you. Plenty of people went to their grave positive that the South will rise again and that there is a Second coming for Christ just around the corner. History is full of people who failed to keep up and ended up as an hommage to the Dinosaurs.

Two people can live together as in matrimony while is all other aspects they are no different than anyone else.

 

[RanchHand]

The comparison get more absurd with each post. If I oppose gay marriage than accroding to the Canadians here I'm the equivilant of a modern day slave master.
I must believe in the second coming of Jesus Christ because I am against two homosexuals getting married??

 

[Spade]

Ordinarily, I avoid these threads; but, if I may..?
I personally do not feel threatened by gay marriage. If two individuals wish to be married as a symbol of their mutual commitment, then it is their business. My life goes on, my dead grandmothers do not turn over in their grave, and the Unknowable remains indifferent.
I still pee standing up!

 

[SirJosephPorter]

There are more people living in states in the US where civil unions are legal than the entire population of Canada. Now that you know that let's see you single out another country for your attack against bigots.

RanchHand, what does that have to do with anything? In Canada, gays are protected from discrimination in 100% of the country, in USA; they are protected only in a small faction of the country.

That is like saying that since India has more Christians than the Vatican (or more than the tiny Belgium), that makes India a Christian country.

You've said this in so many words in many posts. There are federal laws that prevent this.

There are no federal laws to prevent this. Republicans in Congress fought back one attempt after another to outlaw discrimination against gays. Currently there is no federal law prohibiting discrimination against gays.

This is what Wikipedia says about discrimination against gays.

The states banning sexual orientation discrimination in private sector employment are California, Colorado, Connecticut, Hawaii, Illinois, Iowa, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Minnesota, Nevada, New Hampshire, New Jersey, New Mexico, New York, Oregon, Rhode Island, Vermont, Washington, and Wisconsin

That is 20 states. In addition, a few cities have their local ordinance prohibiting discrimination against gays. In the remaining 31 states, one may discriminate against gays to one’s heart’s content, in employment, housing, education etc. with no legal repercussion (except perhaps public shaming, but in the Bible Belt, it would be more like public accolade).

Now, how many gay hating organizations are there in USA? Again, Wikipedia lists a few.

American Family Association, the Christian Coalition, Family Research Council, Focus on the Family, the Moral Majority, NARTH, the national Republican Party,[19] the Roman Catholic Church, the The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons),[20] the Southern Baptist Convention,[21] Alliance for Marriage, Alliance Defense Fund, Liberty Counsel, and the National Organization for Marriage.

LGBT rights in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Can you give me a few examples where in the US someone was thrown out of his apartment or fired because they were a homosexual?
Since you say this can happen in most of the USA, it shouldn't be too hard to come up with some examples.

RanchHand, normally gays who experience harassment and discrimination would keep quiet, especially in the states where discrimination against gays is legal (what is the point in complaining when one has no legal recourse?).

Even so, it s easy to find instances of discrimination against gays. There is a scholarly paper which you may wish to refer to.

Experiences of Harassment, Discrimination, and Physical Violence Among Young Gay and Bisexual Men

This is what it says:

Recent experiences of anti-gay verbal harassment, discrimination, and physical violence were reported by a substantial minority of men in our sample; men aged 18 to 21 years, men who were more open in disclosing their sexual orientation to others, and HIV-positive men most often reported such events.

Google for ‘discrimination gays’ and you will find a whole bunch of material in a couple of minutes. This is what the religious tolerance website says:

Employment discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation

[FONT=&quot]As of mid-1996, Americans could have been legally fired from their jobs simply because of their sexual orientation in 41 states.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Now, of course, the number is closer to 30. But this supports my contention that in states which don’t have discrimination protection for gays, gays can be fired from their job without any recourse.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The same website goes on to say.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Employment discrimination is the most common complaint received by the American Civil Liberties Union from sexual minorities.[/FONT]

But I assume in most cases ACLU cannot do a whole lot, if the state permits discrimination against gays.

 

[lone wolf]

Y'know, "RanchHand", if you're so anti-everything, you can always clip a fresh baseball card to the fender of your tricyle so it makes that Harley noise that sounds just as cool going away as you thought you were coming in....

 

[SirJosephPorter]

We are not a country ruled by the minority, but the majority. Could this concept lead to trouble of course, as the same sex marriage decision did in California.

Ironsides, we are also ruled by the majority, but we have ironclad protections for minorities. A majority has a great deal of latitude in deciding how Canada should be governed, but they are not allowed to take rights away from minorities.

Your method of amending federal constitution is spot on, that is how difficult it should be to amend the constitution (2/3rd majority in both Senate and the House and subsequent ratification by 3/4th of states).

Even some states are reasonable when it comes to amending their constitution. Massachusetts, Connecticut for instance, are quite sensible about it, it is very difficult to amend the state constitution there. Perhaps that is why opponents of gay rights have not been able to get rid of gay marriage in those states.

Then there are states like California, where constitution can be amended by 50%+1 vote in a referendum. I don’t know about you, but I just don’t think that 52:48 majority should be enough to amend the constitution.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Y'know, "RanchHand", if you're so anti-everything, you can always clip a fresh baseball card to the fender of your tricyle so it makes that Harley noise that sounds just as cool going away as you thought you were coming in....

Lone Wolf, could it be? Naa, I don’t think so.

 

[Zzarchov]

In this thread gay marriage has been compared to the black civil rights movement, women sufferage, socceer moms and female engineers. Now you're using slavery as a point of argument? Unlike Canadians, I disagree that the denial of homosexuals the right to marriage is akin to the denial of certain humans their freedom as in slavery

Its a valid point, its the notion of liberty, and that it applies to everyone if that would put it against your religious norms (ie, such as slavery, defended on a religious grounds)

What grounds is there for banning gay marriage exactly OTHER than Abrahamic religion?

Its not traditional values, because not only is divorce ok, but polygamous marriages are not.

 

[Spade]

Y'know, "RanchHand", if you're so anti-everything, you can always clip a fresh baseball card to the fender of your tricyle so it makes that Harley noise that sounds just as cool going away as you thought you were coming in....

I thought so, too!