Israel's Response: Self-defense or Revenge?

Is Israel's response self-defense or revenge? Will the violence by Hezbollah increase, decrease or s

  • Self defense, violence will decrease

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Self defense, violence will stay the same

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Self defense, violence will increase

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Revenge, violence will increase

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Revenge, violence will stay the same

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Revenge, violence will decrease

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    0

para-dice

Nominee Member
Aug 3, 2006
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Bigotted Colpy? Because the UN documents a well planned IDF campaign to antagonize the Lebanese?

Bigotted because you can't respond with facts hence your childish name calling? Grow up.

Is Ha'aretz (Israel's leading newspaper) bigotted for reporting the IDF planned this a year ago?

Are the Lebanese bigotted for getting pissed of at the almost "daily" incursions by the IDF?

Are people bigots and "anti-Semites" for telling the truth Colpy?

Stop being a fukn ideaologue. Stop being an apologist for Zionism.

STOP ALWAYS WAVING THE ANTI-SEMITE CARD you fool.

It's GODDAM ZIONISM WHICH IS CAUSEING A HUGE RISE IN ANTI-SEMITISM AGAINST ME! I wonder if this is Olmert's plan - to increase anti-Semitism because it ALWAYS leads to an increase in emmigration to Israel.

It's time the UN stepped in to restrain my vicous brothers in their racist ideaology!

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com
- the site has been hacked, but will be up again soon.
 

Caleb-Dain Matton

Electoral Member
Jun 14, 2006
197
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www.commondreams.org
para-dice said:
Are people bigots and "anti-Semites" for telling the truth Colpy?

Para-dice, they don't understand that telling the truth is factual and not bigotry.

Italians eat alot of pizza. Am I anti-Italian?
All Chinese people are smart. Am I anti-Chinese?
Russians have a funny-sounding dialect. Am I anti-Russian?

Geez, say one thing about Jews, and the Right wants to crucify you.
 

Mogz

Council Member
Jan 26, 2006
1,254
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Caleb-Dain Matton said:
para-dice said:
Are people bigots and "anti-Semites" for telling the truth Colpy?

Para-dice, they don't understand that telling the truth is factual and not bigotry.

Italians eat alot of pizza. Am I anti-Italian?
All Chinese people are smart. Am I anti-Chinese?
Russians have a funny-sounding dialect. Am I anti-Russian?

Geez, say one thing about Jews, and the Right wants to crucify you.

I don't think you have any right to speak of fact and truth when in this very thread you blatantly made up information about the Israeli Defence Force. Clearly you aren't concerned with fact and truth, so in essence you're the one who has no concept of said terms.
 

Caleb-Dain Matton

Electoral Member
Jun 14, 2006
197
0
16
Sarnia, Ontario
www.commondreams.org
Re: RE: Israel's Response: Self-defense or Revenge?

iARTthere4iam said:
The Sinai has oil and Israel gave it back to Egypt, Lebanon has none...sorry Caleb-Dain Matton your reasoning is wrong.

Virtually unnoticed, the inauguration of the Ceyhan-Tblisi-Baku (BTC) oil pipeline, which links the Caspian sea to the Eastern Mediterranean, took place on the 13th of July, at the very outset of the Israeli sponsored bombings of Lebanon.

Read Michel Chossudovsky's article

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php
 

Toro

Senate Member
May 24, 2005
5,468
109
63
Florida, Hurricane Central
Chossudovsky?

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Nice source, that one! Couldn't get any more out in left field than that!

Go back and search for all his articles on Foilerresearch, er Globalresearch, and you'll find a few about the impending military coup Bush was about to pull off.

Good stuff.
 

Karlin

Council Member
Jun 27, 2004
1,275
2
38
That was a good poll, and it shows that most people KNOW that the mid-east conflict is all about revenge.

"You started it", "No YOU started it" rhetoric we hear about it indicates, by definition, revenge.

"you got our soldiers" , " Ya but first you got our women and children" is what the two sides are saying now - that is revenge.

And it is childish logic. This is the 21st C, I thought people would be more mature by now.

Sigh...
 

Caleb-Dain Matton

Electoral Member
Jun 14, 2006
197
0
16
Sarnia, Ontario
www.commondreams.org
Toro said:
Chossudovsky?

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Nice source, that one! Couldn't get any more out in left field than that!

Go back and search for all his articles on Foilerresearch, er Globalresearch, and you'll find a few about the impending military coup Bush was about to pull off.

Good stuff.

Read the article and dispute it then. If ya can't then you have to admit it's right. The article is right until proven wrong.

But I don't think anyone from the United Terrorists of America is willing to read much.
 

gopher

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 26, 2005
21,513
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Re: RE: Israel's Response: Self-defense or Revenge?

para-dice said:
^ Thread over.

Good job with the OWNAGE gopher.

Just one more thing: Can you provide the link? Would love to show this to my Zionist friends.


Woops, sorry about not including the link:


http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0801/p09s02-coop.html



Yes, there is no question that it is Israel that is the aggressor in this conflict. Unfortunately, the truth is not being reported by the USA or Canadian media. But that truth is being reported by the entire world.
 

MMMike

Council Member
Mar 21, 2005
1,410
1
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Toronto
Obviously Israel's actions are done in self-defense. That doesn't justify the massively disproportionate response we have seen the past few weeks. Their intelligence has been shoddy, and innocent Lebanese civilians have payed the price with their blood. It is not good enough to say that Hizbollah hides behind the skirts of civilians. Israel's air attacks show that they value the life of one of their soldiers far more than a dozen Lebanese civilians.

And a bigger question is: who actually believes that this conflict will result in peace, or greater security for Israel? Anybody?
 

Toro

Senate Member
May 24, 2005
5,468
109
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Caleb-Dain Matton said:
Read the article and dispute it then. If ya can't then you have to admit it's right. The article is right until proven wrong.

But I don't think anyone from the United Terrorists of America is willing to read much.

What article? All the link does is send me to Foiler-research.

But its in an article on the Internet from Foiler-research by a guy who has written articles about the impending military coup d'etat of the United States government by Bush and the "neocons". Thus we should accept whatever Chomskywannabe writes as the unquestioned truth.

Here's the problem with organizations like Foiler-research:

An argument they've used

First fact: A pipeline was going to be built through Afghanistan.
Second fact: America is dependent on imports of foreign oil.
Third fact: An American company was bidding to build the pipeline
Fourth fact: Bush is an oilman.
Fifth fact: Osama bin Laden sends planes into the World Trade Center
Sixth fact: Osama bin Laden was once funded by the CIA to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan

Conclusion: The US government and Bush engineer the destruction of the WTC through Osama bin Laden to justify the invasion of Afghanistan so American companies could win the bidding on the Afghani pipeline.

There can be no other conclusion.

Now, to the Foilers, this is a perfectly reasonable. To the rest of us - and I include the sensible Left - this is ridiculous. And, when the conspiracy theorists can't get their unusual theories into the mainstream press, they trot out the "media-as-propoganda, owned-by-self-serving-corporations" line. No, you can't get your story out because its utterly bizarre.

(And in fairness, the Left, of course, is not the only haven for the bizarre foilers. There are conspiracy nuts on the Right too . Remember the black UN helicopters hovering over America?)

Now I'm going to use your line reasoning.

Fact 1: Iran is building a nuclear weapon
Fact 2: Iran was under intense pressure from the international community to stop building that weapon until recently
Fact 3: Iran funds Hezbollah
Fact 4: Hezbollah kidnapped Israeli soldiers and fired rockets into Haifa.
Fact 5: Israel invades Lebanon to crush Hezbollah.
Fact 6: The international community is no longer focussed on Iran's nuclear program

Thus, the only conclusion is that Iran ordered Hezbollah to start a war with Israel to divert attention away from its nuclear program.

And, to use your reasoning again

My argument is right until proven wrong
 

gc

Electoral Member
May 9, 2006
931
20
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MMMike said:
And a bigger question is: who actually believes that this conflict will result in peace, or greater security for Israel? Anybody?

This is basically the question I was trying to ask. I don't know the answer, however I know that in order for Israel's actions to be considered as self-defence, the attacks would have to eventually decrease. If Israel takes action against Hezbollah, and Hezbollah only increases their attacks, how is that self-defence?
 

gopher

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 26, 2005
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Israel's actions are not self defense. It is a crime against humanity:

www.juancole.com/

Thursday, August 03, 2006

HRW: Israel Guilty of War Crimes

Human Rights Watch, after extensive investigation, has concluded that the Israeli military is guilty of war crimes. HRW says:

Israeli forces have systematically failed to distinguish between combatants and civilians in their military campaign against Hezbollah in Lebanon, Human Rights Watch said in report released today. The pattern of attacks in more than 20 cases investigated by Human Rights Watch researchers in Lebanon indicates that the failures cannot be dismissed as mere accidents and cannot be blamed on wrongful Hezbollah practices. In some cases, these attacks constitute war crimes.

The 50-page report, “Fatal Strikes: Israel’s Indiscriminate Attacks Against Civilians in Lebanon,” analyzes almost two dozen cases of Israeli air and artillery attacks on civilian homes and vehicles. Of the 153 dead civilians named in the report, 63 are children. More than 500 people have been killed in Lebanon by Israeli fire since fighting began on July 12, most of them civilians.

“The pattern of attacks shows the Israeli military’s disturbing disregard for the lives of Lebanese civilians,” said Kenneth Roth, executive director of Human Rights Watch. “Our research shows that Israel’s claim that Hezbollah fighters are hiding among civilians does not explain, let alone justify, Israel’s indiscriminate warfare.”

HRW's investigations do not bear out the excuse that the high civilian casualty rate is because of Hizbullah hiding among civilians:

' Human Rights Watch researchers found numerous cases in which the IDF launched artillery and air attacks with limited or dubious military objectives but excessive civilian cost. In many cases, Israeli forces struck an area with no apparent military target. In some instances, Israeli forces appear to have deliberately targeted civilians.

In one case, an Israeli air strike on July 13 destroyed the home of a cleric known to have sympathy for Hezbollah but who was not known to have taken any active part in the hostilities. Even if the IDF considered him a legitimate target (and Human Rights Watch has no evidence that he was), the strike killed him, his wife, their 10 children and the family’s Sri Lankan maid.

On July 16, an Israeli aircraft fired on a civilian home in the village of Aitaroun, killing 11 members of the al-Akhrass family, among them seven Canadian-Lebanese dual nationals who were vacationing in the village when the war began. Human Rights Watch independently interviewed three villagers who vigorously denied that the family had any connection to Hezbollah. Among the victims were children aged one, three, five and seven.

The Israeli government has blamed Hezbollah for the high civilian casualty toll in Lebanon, insisting that Hezbollah fighters have hidden themselves and their weapons among the civilian population. However, in none of the cases of civilian deaths documented in the report is there evidence to suggest that Hezbollah was operating in or around the area during or prior to the attack. '

Just from observing eyewitness news accounts from Lebanon, I had come to the same conclusion.

A letter to the editor worth reading, on Israeli war crimes in Lebanon.

The Arab American Institute condemned the Bush administration for its insouciance over the Qana massacre.

The Israelis have done $2 billion worth of damage to Lebanon. I guess that is fair, one billion for each soldier captured by Hizbullah.

Israel resumed its bombing of Shiite civilian neighborhoods in southern Beirut on Wednesday.

The Israelis also bombed the Tyre region, killing 7 civilians. Israeli ground troops advanced into southern Lebanon, saying their goal is to reach the Litani, methodically cleaning out Hizbullah bases as they go. Apparently the Israelis really do hope to (further) empty those 19 square miles of people.

2,000 Saudi Shiites demonstrated against Israel in Qatif on Tuesday. Saudi Shiites are traditionally quite timid and cautious, so this rally is an index of their frustration. The community has boldly criticized its own government for initially blaming Hizbullah for adventurism and declining to call for a cease fire. Since the early days of the war, Saudi policy has swung around to criticizing Israel and demanding a ceasefire.

On why you should never, ever listen to the promises of air force generals about how they can get the job done in fighting guerrilla groups without harming civilians.

No fuel, no energy. No energy, no water and no bread. No water and no bread, no people.

The Daily Star surveys Lebanese blogs that are trying to cover the war experience from that country.

The UN reminds us that the Israeli-imposed crisis in Gaza is as bad as that in Lebanon.
 

Colpy

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 5, 2005
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Advocates of 'proportion' are just unbalanced

August 6, 2006

BY MARK STEYN SUN-TIMES COLUMNIST

"Disproportion" is the concept of the moment. Do you know how to play? Let's say 150 missiles are lobbed at northern Israel from the Lebanese village of Qana and the Israelis respond with missiles of their own that kill 28 people. Whoa, man, that's way "disproportionate."



But let's say you're a northwestern American municipality -- Seattle, for example -- and you haven't lobbed missiles at anybody, but a Muslim male shows up anyway and shoots six Jewish women, one of whom tries to flee up the stairs, but he spots her, leans over the railing, fires again and kills her. He describes himself as "an American Muslim angry at Israel" and tells 911 dispatchers: ''These are Jews. I want these Jews to get out. I'm tired of getting pushed around, and our people getting pushed around by the situation in the Middle East.''

Well, that's apparently entirely "proportionate," so "proportionate" that the event is barely reported in the American media, or (if it is) it's portrayed as some kind of random convenience-store drive-by shooting. Pamela Waechter's killer informed his victims that "I'm only doing this for a statement," but the world couldn't be less interested in his statement, not compared to his lawyer's statement that he's suffering from "bipolar disorder.'' And the local FBI guy, like the Mounties in Toronto a month or so back, took the usual no-jihad-to-see-here line. ''There's nothing to indicate it's terrorism related,'' said Special Assistant Agent-In-Charge David Gomez. In America, terrorism is like dentistry and hairdressing: It doesn't count unless you're officially credentialed.

On the other hand, when a drunk movie star gets pulled over and starts unburdening himself of various theories about "f---ing Jews," hold the front page! That is so totally "disproportionate" it's the biggest story of the moment. The head of America's most prominent Jewish organization will talk about nothing else for days on end, he and the media too tied up dealing with Mel Gibson's ruminations on "f---ing Jews" to bother with footling peripheral stories about actual f---ing Jews murdered for no other reason than because they're f---ing Jews.

On the other other hand, when the leader of Hezbollah, Hassan Nasrallah, announces that if Jews "all gather in Israel, it will save us the trouble of going after them worldwide,'' that's not in the least "disproportionate.'' When President Ahmadinejad of Iran visits Malaysia and declares, apropos Lebanon, that "although the main solution is for the elimination of the Zionist regime, at this stage an immediate cease-fire must be implemented," well, that's just a bit of mildly overheated rhetoric prefacing what's otherwise a very helpful outline of a viable peace process: (Stage One) Please don't keep degrading our infrastructure until (Stage Two) we've got the capacity to nuke you.

Right now, Israel's best chance of any decent press would seem to be if Mel Gibson flies in and bawls out his waiter as a "f---ing Jew.''

What can we deduce from these various acts, proportionate and not so? If you talk to European officials, they'll tell you privately that that Seattle shooting is the way of the future -- that every now and then in Seattle or Sydney, Madrid or Manchester, someone will die because they went to a community center, got on the bus, showed up for work . . and a jihadist was there. But they're confident that they can hold it to what the British security services cynically called, at the height of the Northern Ireland ''Troubles,'' ''an acceptable level of violence'' -- i.e., it will all be kept ''proportionate.'' Tough for Pam Waechter's friends and family, but there won't be too many of them.

I wonder if they're right to be that complacent. The duke of Wellington, the great British soldier-politician, was born in Ireland, but, upon being described as an Irishman, remarked that a man could be born in a stable but it didn't make him a horse. That's the way many Muslims feel: Just because you're born in the filthy pigsty of the Western world doesn't make you a pig. What proportion of Muslims is hot for jihad? Well, it would be grossly insensitive and disproportionate to inquire. So instead we'll put it down to isolated phenomena like the supposed "bipolar disorder" of Pam Waechter's killer.

In the struggle between America and global Islam, it's the geopolitical bipolar disorder that matters. Clearly, from his own statements about "our people," for Pam Waechter's killer his Muslim identity ultimately transcended his American one. That's what connects him to what's happening in southern Lebanon: a pan-Islamist identity that overrides national citizenship whether in the Pacific Northwest or the Levant. Not for all Muslims, but for enough that things will get mighty "disproportionate" before they're through.

Twenty-eight dead civilians in a village from which 150 Katyusha rockets have been launched against Israel doesn't seem "disproportionate" to me. What's "disproportionate" is the idea that civilian life should be allowed to proceed normally in what is, in fact, a terrorist launching platform.

But, when an army goes to war against a terrorist organization, it's like watching the Red Sox play Andre Agassi: Each side is being held to its own set of rules. When Hezbollah launches rockets into Israeli residential neighborhoods with the intention of killing random civilians, that's fine because, after all, they're terrorists and that's what terrorists do. But when, in the course of trying to resist the terrorists, Israel unintentionally kills civilians, that's an appalling act of savagery. Speaking at West Point in 2002, President Bush observed: "Deterrence -- the promise of massive retaliation against nations -- means nothing against shadowy terrorist networks with no nation or citizens to defend." Actually, it's worse than that. In Hezbollahstan, the deaths of its citizens works to its strategic advantage: Dead Israelis are good news but dead Lebanese are even better, at least on the important battlefield of world opinion. The meta-narrative, as they say, is consistent through the media's Hez-one-they-made-earlier coverage, and the recent Supreme Court judgment, and EU-U.N. efforts to play "honest broker" between a sovereign state and a genocidal global terror conglomerate: All these things enhance the status of Islamist terror and thus will lead to more of it, and ever more "disproportionately."

http://www.suntimes.com/output/steyn/cst-edt-steyn06.html
 

iARTthere4iam

Electoral Member
Jul 23, 2006
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That poll does not show that most people think Israel is out for revenge...look again.

gc, if I was mugged by a pistol-wielding madman and fought him and was shot and robbed I would still say I was acting in self defence...but it didn't work.
 

gc

Electoral Member
May 9, 2006
931
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Re: RE: Israel's Response: Self-defense or Revenge?

iARTthere4iam said:
That poll does not show that most people think Israel is out for revenge...look again.

gc, if I was mugged by a pistol-wielding madman and fought him and was shot and robbed I would still say I was acting in self defence...but it didn't work.

Fair enough, but that's because you thought that fighting him would prevent you from being shot. What would happen if you were being mugged, and you knew that fighting back would only increase your chances of getting shot, would that be self-defence?

I'm not saying that is what is happening in Israel, but it is quite possible.
 

Colpy

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 5, 2005
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So, today Hezbollah had its greatest success......one rocket killed 12 Israeli reservists (a legitimate military target) while other rockets hit a crowded street in Haifa, collapsing a building and killing an undisclosed number of Israeli civilians.

These civilians were TARGETED, unlike Israeli "collateral damage". (I hate the term, but everyone knows what it means)

My question is.....where are all the threads expressing outrage at these civilian deaths? Why is no one accusing Hezbollah of "war crimes"?

I begin to suspect our lefty peaceniks are far from neutral in this conflict......
 

Finder

House Member
Dec 18, 2005
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Re: RE: Israel's Response: Self-defense or Revenge?

Colpy said:
So, today Hezbollah had its greatest success......one rocket killed 12 Israeli reservists (a legitimate military target) while other rockets hit a crowded street in Haifa, collapsing a building and killing an undisclosed number of Israeli civilians.

These civilians were TARGETED, unlike Israeli "collateral damage". (I hate the term, but everyone knows what it means)

My question is.....where are all the threads expressing outrage at these civilian deaths? Why is no one accusing Hezbollah of "war crimes"?

I begin to suspect our lefty peaceniks are far from neutral in this conflict......

Now I do respect Isreals right to defend itself, however I feel they are taking an extremely aggressive stance in there policy, which lead up to this current conflic and the on going bombinbs. The so called "collateral damage" by Isreal has been extremely high and suspect if you ask me. Isreal has to respect it's nabours as well as it's nabours respect them.

With that said Hezbollah, though I sympathize with their rage, I can not aggree with their tactics. They are evil little cowards who hide behind human shields, and attack women and children. The Koran, the holy book of Islam has directives to fight any war and Hezbollah has broken every directive known in the holy book.

I wuld love to see a strong UN resolution which sets both sides stright and will be enforced. However I'm not holding my breath. Isreal will not submit to internation presurrers as they are well armed by the USA and Hezbollah I highly doubt as well would follow international law as well.

It is a shame that so many innocent Lebanese, and even Isrealis are trapped between two fascist waring factions.
 

elevennevele

Electoral Member
Mar 13, 2006
787
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Canada
Re: RE: Israel's Response: Self-defense or Revenge?

Colpy said:
My question is.....where are all the threads expressing outrage at these civilian deaths? Why is no one accusing Hezbollah of "war crimes"?

I begin to suspect our lefty peaceniks are far from neutral in this conflict......


Colpy, people have been condemning the lost of life on both sides and condemning actions which have only caused an escalation in the conflict. That has been a basis of many people you have argued against.

You simply haven’t noticed because you have been too busy defending one side.
 

Caleb-Dain Matton

Electoral Member
Jun 14, 2006
197
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Sarnia, Ontario
www.commondreams.org
Re: RE: Israel's Response: Self-defense or Revenge?

elevennevele said:
Colpy said:
My question is.....where are all the threads expressing outrage at these civilian deaths? Why is no one accusing Hezbollah of "war crimes"?

I begin to suspect our lefty peaceniks are far from neutral in this conflict......


Colpy, people have been condemning the lost of life on both sides and condemning actions which have only caused an escalation in the conflict. That has been a basis of many people you have argued against.

You simply haven’t noticed because you have been too busy defending one side.

I, for one have condemned deaths of ALL civilians, whether they are Jewish or Labanese. I do condemn Israeli's aggression that results in more careless deaths of Labanese. The latest Israeli attack bombed a Christian village -- since when do Muslim Hezbollah hang out in Christian villages?