Israeli soldiers captured in Lebanon, not Israel!

[Colpy]

BitWhys: Do you actually believe the Israelis where captured on the Lebanese side of the border? I just want to be clear for future reference. I wouldn't want to jump to conclusion in the future when I mentally lump you together with gopher.

no I don't. for me belief is suspended either way on that one. probably always will be. the part I would really like to know is if was along the border with the Shabba Farms. Never have seen a map for it. If it was they're both right and they're both wrong. if THAT isn't a pretext for war I don't know what its.

and now that you mention it, he was writing from Beruit so it just looks hasty.

I wondered the same thing about Shabba Farms.

Of course, Lebanon has no legitimate claim to the area, so if it was on the Farms, Hezbollah was in Israeli territory.

 

[BitWhys]

Actually push comes to shove, I do believe the books say they were both in Syrian territory.

 

[BitWhys]

You notice Syria dropped of the rhetorical ceasefire borkerage radar? They said the magic words a couple days ago...

Golan Heights.

 

[Colpy]

Re: RE: Israeli soldiers captured in Lebanon, not Israel!

Actually push comes to shove, I do believe the books say they were both in Syrian territory.

That would be correct, Shabba Farms is Syrian territory occupied by Israel.

Although Syria has surrendered sovereignty to Lebanon, which is simply ridiculous. Syria remains at war officially with Israel.

Israel should simply annex the Shabba Farms because Syria has tried to use it as a club to beat them with. Israel should also annex the Golan Heights. They are a tactical necessity to the defense of Israel, and they were won with much blood in a defensive war. Too bad Syria.

Yeah, I know about International Law. What A JOKE!

 

[Freethinker]

Syria could have had the Golan returned if they were willing to negotiate with Israel, but they weren't. But yes the Shebaa farms is occupied Syrian land. Regardless it is just a mild excuse for firing rockets at the Israelis. If Israel gave it to them, they could find another:

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=43661

© 2005 WorldNetDaily.com

JERUSALEM – With the U.S. calling for a complete Syrian withdrawal and the dismantlement of all Lebanese militia groups, Hezbollah vowed yesterday it will not be disarmed and said it plans to be a major force in any new government.

"[Hezbollah] will not disarm even if the Israelis withdraw from Shebaa Farms," the party's political bureau spokesman, Ghaleb Abu Zeinab, said yesterday. "Shebaa Farms do not define the resistance's arms. Even if Shebaa Farms are liberated, Hezbollah's arms are here to protect Lebanon from any Israeli attack and create a balance of terror in the face of Israel."

 

[gopher]

RE: Israeli soldiers capt

In a C-Span report this evening, Paul Salem of the Carnegie ME Center reported that Israel crossed the so-called "blue line" into Lebanon at least 25 times in recent years and that this raid in which its two soldiers were captured was but one of them. If that is the case then the government of Lebanon is partly at fault for its failure to complain to the UN or to any other international body for these Israeli violations. Clearly, had these illegal raids been publicized it is likely that a great many in the pro-Israel camp would have no leg to stand in when they claim that Israel is so innocent.

It appears now that, indeed, Israel started this current violence by violating Lebanon's border. Therefore, the bulk of the blame goes to its government for its repeated violations. But Lebanon is partly at fault for its silence in the face of these violations.

 

[elevennevele]

Re: RE: Israeli soldiers capt

In a C-Span report this evening, Paul Salem of the Carnegie ME Center reported that Israel crossed the so-called "blue line" into Lebanon at least 25 times in recent years and that this raid in which its two soldiers were captured was but one of them. If that is the case then the government of Lebanon is partly at fault for its failure to complain to the UN or to any other international body for these Israeli violations. Clearly, had these illegal raids been publicized it is likely that a great many in the pro-Israel camp would have no leg to stand in when they claim that Israel is so innocent.

It appears now that, indeed, Israel started this current violence by violating Lebanon's border. Therefore, the bulk of the blame goes to its government for its repeated violations. But Lebanon is partly at fault for its silence in the face of these violations.

I totally agree with you in your criticism of Lebanon here. Lebanon is quite at fault for not bringing complaints to the UN for infractions by Israel in not respecting their borders each time an infraction occurred. When such infractions occur they run the danger of inciting provocation until the mess we have today. Perhaps then Israel would not have gone on such an offensive as public opinion would not have been so easily swayed.

This whole situation has been a complete waste. It's just like having watched people warn against the Iraq War. They go ignored and it's just a big mess.

The latest news is Israel is finding war not such a good idea now that they are starting to get hit pretty hard by Hezbollah. Also as Hezbollah is becoming successful at standing up to Israel, it is now fueling official support among the other Arab countries that at first condemned them. It could run the risk of breaking established peace treaties in the region.

And if you don’t believe that then why is Israel now reconsidering prisoner exchanges to end the conflict.

Stupidity. What a stupid waste of lives.

 

[humanbeing]

RE: Israeli soldiers capt

humanbeing....not necessarily less reported because MANY different countries picked up the ORIGINAL version of events. Perhaps you are making that assessment on what you personally have chosen to read.

Perhaps this is where i differ from you both. Rather than just automatically believe the MSM at face value, I tend to look into things more thoroughly. I suppose my cynicism has come from my time in Iraq. We got to see what the media was saying about how things were/are going in Iraq....and the BS that you were all being fed and still are being fed is distorted and in some cases fabricated beyond belief.

but by all means...keep believing the "spin" all you want..... that's what being a freethinker is all about...right?

From my saying that Israel kidnapped two Lebanese, a doctor and his brother, and that it did not receive widespead reporting, you lump me together with freethinker?

Anyways, HOW can you lump me with freethinker? Maybe you need to read my posts more thoroughly before jumping to a conclusion about me.

What BS am I being fed? And how do you conclude that I am being fed this BS?

 

[humanbeing]

RE: Israeli soldiers capt

The bulk of the reports I was referring to come from the Turkish press, by the way.

Anywhere else, again, barely reported if even reported at all in the first place.
If anything, what I am saying here SUPPORTS your argument about the various medias' shoddy working (the spin, and the BS, as you say)...
By saying something is less reported, I am not denying that it might be important, I am trying to show yet another way in which the mass media fails to provide most common people with the information they need to have an understanding of the world.

related article
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=COO20060720&articleId=2767

 

[Freethinker]

Re: RE: Israeli soldiers capt

In a C-Span report this evening, Paul Salem of the Carnegie ME Center reported that Israel crossed the so-called "blue line" into Lebanon at least 25 times in recent years and that this raid in which

This is one sided tripe. How many times were they responding to rocket attacks, how many of these violations where flyovers, how many attacks by Hezbollah across the line in that time?

 

[gopher]

RE: Israeli soldiers capt

And which of these "flyovers" or violations of air space are legal?

 

[cmar]

Re: RE: Israeli soldiers captured in Lebanon, not Israel!

You know, the tuth be known, I don't much give a damn whether the Israelis were in Israel or in Lebanon when they were grabbed.
If they were in Lebanon (which I really doubt) they were there for a good reason......whacking Hezbollah.

geez written like a true chicken-hawk is it you don't give a toss that they were captured too so where and when are just semantics?

Israel is a democratic, western style nation.

hmmm ya reckon? no western style nation I know has mandatory conscription for both men and women from age 18, unless of course you consider China also a "western style nation".

as far as the democracy angle as per above but also "western style" democracies also have a written constitution, which Israel does NOT.

voting in Israel also is dependant on "what or who you are" as evident in the January 2006 elections where Israel decided...based on that specific election process which adults were allowed to vote and who were not.

I could also go on and on about the differences again between republicanism and also constitutional monarchies (which are both defined as western democracies) which israel due to lack of that little old writen constitution isn't... I don't need to though right, considering your profile says one of your "hobbies" is politics... may I suggest basketweaving to you instead because at least you may get a gist of that....or maybe wood whittlin'...jug-blowing is another good option for ya :wink: all the above would go along wonderfully with the "gun" hobby too.

They are our natural allies.

erm...why?

They are threatened and attacked by Hezbollah, a tool of the lunatics in Iran.

hmmm threatened by hizballah who's weapons are Katyusha rockets, filled with ball bearings and pretty much nothing else...geez..those pockmarks caused by these rockets wreak havoc on Israel's infrastructure don't they! lmao On the other hand, Israel uses phosphorus bombs(illegal incedinary weapons as ruled by the geneva Conventions protocol III), DU bombs and some other new 'you beaut' weaponary as supplied by the lunatics in the USA.

Israel is on OUR side.

define "OUR SIDE" colpy. I personally served in Iraq with the alleged "coalition of the willing", but I didn't see any canadian troops in my travels through Iraq...

as for the situation now, I don't think that a couple of handfuls of canadians in a UN capacity warrants a "side vs side" statement.



[quote="colpy"Oh yeah......the prisoner exchange. The prisoner Hezbollah wants back the most is Samir Kuntar, sentenced 27 years ago to three life terms. On a raid, he and his buddies killed a policeman, and then took a father and his four year old daughter hostage. They shot the father dead in front of his daughter, and then beat her brains out with rifle butts. They didn't even have the mercy to expend a bullet on her. FOUR YEARS OLD. At his trial, Samir laughed and taunted his captors, often showing the V for Victory sign.[/quote]

first up, how do you know for sure that Samir Kuntar is the one they want back "the most" or is that mere assumption and nothing more? From what I read their goal was to have hundreds of lebanese citizens, both military and civillians released from israels detention camps/prisons as exchange. Yea it is horrific what that bloke did, but no more or less horrific than is what is being done by the IDF currently in lebanon as well as what they did between 1982 and 2000 and then some, or the IOF in Palestine over the past 60 odd years.

Just thought you might like to know who you are defending...........

here's the thing colpy, my posts are defending no one because I for one don't buy into the "with us or against us" bullshit like you apparently do.
I pity people who see things only as black and white because their monochromatic view distorts the reality of whats really going on. Anyway I won't keep you colpy because no doubt you have a US propaganda newsreel(circa 1943) on tape you've just gotta watch :twisted:

 

[Colpy]

Ah, Cmar....let's take it from the top.....

Yep, I don't give a damn where they were captured, as I said.

Most European countries have some form of National Service, and they are not threatened from all sides, as Israel is.

Britain doesn't have a formal written constitution either........

Show me some evidence, please, of some Israelis being prevented from voting. I have never heard such an accusation before.

I've actually got a university degree in history and politics, I don't pull my ideas out of my arse.

The gun thing is not just a hobby, I teach armed self-defense as a profession.

Oh, catch you later....gotta go watch that newsreel....

 

[Freethinker]

Re: RE: Israeli soldiers captured in Lebanon, not Israel!

hmmm threatened by hizballah who's weapons are Katyusha rockets, filled with ball bearings and pretty much nothing else...geez..those pockmarks caused by these rockets wreak havoc on Israel's infrastructure don't they! lmao On the other hand, Israel uses phosphorus bombs(illegal incedinary weapons as ruled by the geneva Conventions protocol III), DU bombs and some other new 'you beaut' weaponary as supplied by the lunatics in the USA.

No evidence that Israeli weapons contravened the geneva convention, they are using large infrastructure destroying bomb, these don't use white phosphorous.

Hezbollahs packing weapons with ball bearings has been condemmed as it serves no military purpose, no infrastructure purpose, it is merely done to maximize shrapnel to maim and kill as many civilians as possible. A practice condemned by human rights watch:

http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2006/07/18/lebano13760.htm
“Attacking civilian areas indiscriminately is a serious violation of international humanitarian law and can constitute a war crime,” said Sarah Leah Whitson, director of the Middle East and North Africa division at Human Rights Watch. “Hezbollah’s use of warheads that have limited military use and cause grievous suffering to the victims only makes the crime worse.”

I fail to grasp why you think it is a good thing that Hezbollah has weapons designed and aimed at maiming/killing civilians and ignoring military/infrastructure targets.

 

[gopher]

Lebanon Asks Rice Not to Visit Lebanon

Sunday July 30, 2006 10:16 AM

BEIRUT, Lebanon (AP) - The Lebanese government asked Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice on Sunday to put off a visit to Lebanon after an Israeli airstrike that killed more than 50 people.

Rice had been expected to arrive in Beirut from Israel later Sunday to discuss an overall peace package and Lebanon's own proposals to end the fighting.




That's quite a spin on the news. What they are really saying is, "you're not welcomed here". Touche'!

 

[neone]

Has anyone found a decent link yet to this assumption? I keep looking every few days but it seems like it's all coming off of blog like sources. I haven't seen or heard anything in the msm about it.

 

[cmar]

As far as the "The militant group Hezbollah captured two Israeli soldiers during clashes Wednesday across the border in southern Lebanon" and the same reporter changing it later is an indication of the original confusion and bad translations. Obviously a bad initial translation as hardly makes sense the way it was written initially.

hey i can understand the first being a 'bad translation' but the fact still remains the 2nd 'version' still states quite clearly that the IDF soldiers were captured in Southern Lebanon.

"Israeli troops crossed into a southwestern sector of Lebanon, near where the soldiers were seized, trying to keep their captors from moving them deeper into Lebanon, Israeli security officials said."

But hey believe that if it makes you feel better.

hell yeah..seeing the reality through all the "spin" out there makes me feel a lot better freethinker. :wink:

You can also believe that the CIA flew the planes into the WTA if you want.

and what preytell is the WTA? Did you mean the WTC buildings? Nah, I doubt the CIA had the smarts to pull something like that off. It takes mental giants to defy the laws of physics as what allegedly happened on 911 and if nothing else we all know the US aren't known for their premium "intelligence", don't we...

I hear that is a common belief in the ME.

oh really? hmm.... I'd love to see your sources reflecting this. I look forward to it..

A previous Raid by Hezbollah was recorded by the Canadian who was killed, that one was rebuffed. It was only a matter of time until Hezbollah achieved their goal of a successful kidnapping, and Israel bombed them. It is all so predictable. These skirmishes have been going on ever since Israel left in 2000.

First up, it generally isn't considered 'kidnapping' when its soldiers who are captured, it s a nice 'buzzword' though to send those too simple minded to differentiate between enemy capture and the taking of a civillian. Second, yeah skirmishes have been happening from BOTH sides since Israel's withdrawal in 2000..do you have a point? Again nothing you have stated this time around has shown in any way shape or form that the initial "capture" of the soldiers happened in Israel, whereby warranting a declaration of war from Israel.

I do suppose that the yanks are breathing a sigh of relieve though. All this happening in Lebabon and The Strip at the moment sure as hell takes the focus off their complete and utter failures in both Iraq and Afghanistan! No wonder they're in no hurry to see a ceasefire. :twisted:

PS to colpy... i will reply to your comments later. it is monday morning here though and I have a lot to do today. will endevour to reply tonight. (that also goes for "human being")

 

[cmar]

Re: RE: Israeli soldiers captured in Lebanon, not Israel!

Ah, Cmar....let's take it from the top.....

Yep, I don't give a damn where they were captured, as I said.

but do you give a damn that they were was more my question

Most European countries have some form of National Service, and they are not threatened from all sides, as Israel is.

not mandatory service for both men and women from the age of 18 where the penatly for NOT serving is mandatory inprisonment. Name european countries who have mandatory conscription for both men and women, for a start and secondly also those who have mandatory prison time for those not wanting to comply, and please provide links to back up this revelation of yours.

quote="colpy]Britain doesn't have a formal written constitution either........[/quote]

Britain isn't a "western style democracy" either. Britain is monarcial so therefore there is no precedence nor need to conform to the "republican"...written constitution workings. It works on a system where parliament determines the outcome for constitutional decisions. israel is not a part of any monarchy and as you said is a "western style democracy"..I assume you mean akin to the US..if you DID mean anything different to that please elaborate, either way though it fits into neither 'basket".

'quote="colpy]Show me some evidence, please, of some Israelis being prevented from voting. I have never heard such an accusation before.[/quote]

for a start,seems your assuming that ONLY israeli's are allowed a vote..? which is ludicrous considering what the january 2006 elections over there represented..how about you look into the whats and why's as to that particular election Mr "politics and history" degree holder and then maybe rephrase your question.

[quote="colpy]I've actually got a university degree in history and politics, I don't pull my ideas out of my arse.[/quote]

Hmm, yeah I have a degree in the arts too, but I don't utilise this degree on a regular basis nor do I call myself an art critic or an artist or an expert in the area. Seeing as though your vocation is "self defense by fire arm" (lmao)...I doubt you would be using your alleged political nor history "prowess" as a tool for your craft. Expertise on things comes from practical life experience, not the shit you read from a book and get a passing grade on because you went through the motions to read what was required.

The gun thing is not just a hobby, I teach armed self-defense as a profession.

you listed it as such at the time i read it.

{quote="colpy"}Oh, catch you later....gotta go watch that newsreel....[/quote]

did ya learn anything new coply? nah I bet not...considering the US had been churning out the same old propaganda crap since the late 1890's... I suppose it's all known "by heart" to you by now.. the old US = goodguy and X (whomever is standing in the way of our personal global interests) = bad guy.

Oh ya didn't answer either.... Who is this "OUR" side you reckon you are part of???

 

[Colpy]

I do care that two soldiers of a country that is our friend and ally have fallen into the ghands of Hezbollah........who have tortured prisoners to death before now.

The term Western-style democracy" would include either Republican or Parliamentary systems. In fact, it would include almost anywhere that has universal adult suffrage, regular elections, and rule of law. And yes, both the parliamentary democracy of Britain and the republican democracy of the USA fit the "basket" as they share much......including English Common Law. The Napoleonic Code countries of Europe also are "western-style democracies". Had I meant republican democracies, or parliamentary democracies, I would have specified same.

for a start,seems your assuming that ONLY israeli's are allowed a vote..? which is ludicrous considering what the january 2006 elections over there represented..how about you look into the whats and why's as to that particular election Mr "politics and history" degree holder and then maybe rephrase your question.

Yes, I am assuming only Israelis.....Jewish and Arab.....are allowed to vote in an Israeli election. If you know differently, why not climb down off your high horse and enlighten the ignorant masses?

I was a high school history teacher......and I hated it. Now I work for an armoured car company, and I teach use of force law and practical armed self-defense, so I do use my education in some small way......BTW, I got the job as trainer after I posted my profile, then shooting was more of a hobby.

"Our side" is the side of capitalist western civilization. That civilization has made more people rich, and kept more people free than any other in history. It is the apex of human development.

At the moment it is caught in a clash with a rapidly-expanding civilization that is caught in a culture better suited to the Dark Ages. The Islamist is the abolute antithesis of everything we believe. They hate freedom of choice, they despise political or religious liberty, they enslave women and murder gays, they are our enemies, simple as that.

Is that clear enough for you?

 

[humanbeing]

RE: Israeli soldiers capt

By taking the logic of some folks here, and certainly the logic Israel has utilized, and flipping it around:

Since Israel kidnapped Lebanese civilians, Lebanon has the right to protect itself by destroying the infrastructure of Israel.

Right or wrong?