Israel...
- Thread starter dancing-loon
- Start date
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/newsfull.php?newid=160740
The former minister criticized Israel's use of military for murdering and expelling the Palestinians.
The former minister criticized Israel's use of military for murdering and expelling the Palestinians.
How very interesting!! Your Aljazeera link doesn't work today!:-?
May I leave my link here? It's probably just as good as the one from Aljazeera.;-)
http://www.countercurrents.org/hassan290306.htm
Evil, wherever in the world, needs to be exposed.
No....Israel is once again offering land for peace.....as she has done over and over and over again.
Unless of course it happens to be the German murder of 5,800,000 Jews along with somewhere over 4 million Gypsies, slavs, homosexuals, the disabled, and political "unreliables"......THAT needs to be denied......:roll:
The holocaust was undoubtably a crime against humanity. But what does that have to do with Palestine or Palestinians? Does anyone here claim that Palestinians were involved in that crime?
Jewish refugees fleeing the holocaust in Europe ended up in the region known as Palestine against the wishes of the people already living there. The Jewish refugees called Palestine "a land without people for a people without land." Nothing could have been further from the truth. Over a million people and only a few Jews lived in Palestine before WW II.
Instead of being grateful that they had a safe haven in this region, a core group of Jewish refugees known as Zionists plotted to ethnically cleanse the area of non-Jews to create a pure Jewish state. The Zionsist put their violent plans in action soon after the end of WW II. By 1948 Zionists were systematically slaughtering entire villages like Deir Yassin. Atrocities were committed by both sides, but the Zionists were the ones who started the ethnic cleansing with the intent of creating a Jewish only state. Palestinian violence against the refugees was a reaction to violence. Zionist ethnic cleansing caused the 1948 war. 800,000 people do not abandon their homes willingly, in the same way that people fleeing a burning building don't willingly flee their apartments. Israel's declaration of independance was an official announcement that the entire region would be cleansed of non-Jews. That announcement was the last straw for neighboring countries which were experiencing a flood of refugees from ethnically cleansed Palestine and triggered the 1948 war. During the decades after the start of the war, millions of Jews immigrated to Israel. Some suffered oppression, injustice and/or threats to personal security and are legitimate refugees, but most left their countries of origin voluntarily in a planned and orderly manner and are therefore immigrants. People should be aware of the sequence of events. The wave of Jewish immigration was a result of both a desire to live in a Jewish state as citizens with preferential rights and privileges and rising Arab anti-semitism resulting from past and present Israeli crimes against Arab Palestinians.
Israel's ethnic cleansing, like the Nazi holocaust is a crime against humanity. The people who had the misfortune of not being Jewish in a region the UN declared to be a Jewish state were never consulted. Most found themselves being attacked by armed foreigners and fled for their lives. They were stripped of their land and property and have never received compensation or been allowed to return home as per international law. The UN and all the nations which voted in favor of recognizing Israel, despite the crimes and acts of terrorism which lead to its creation, are responsible for the consequences. So far that is 60 years of ongoing war and 4 million + nationless refugees.
Until Israel and the rest of the world comes to terms with this ongoing injustice and oppression suffered by millions, this region will remain in a state of war. If a peaceful just compromise is not found, then this war will eventually end with the Israel's destruction. That's not a wish or desire on my part but an observation of longterm trends.
Over time Israel's enemies have continued to grow in numbers and strength. The 2006 Israel/Lebanon war shows that Israel's adversaries can hold their own militarily against Israel. What they can't do yet is kill civilians as effectively as Israel can. But on the 2006 battlefield, Israel's adversaries proved they were about evenly matched.
In order to survive Israel must win every battle. In order for Israel's adversaries to defeat Israel they need only win once. A time is coming when Israel's adversaries will be able to kill civilians as easily as Israel. When that time comes, there will be a final battle in this war and Israel will loose. That battle will likely result in millions of civilian casualties and be an even greater atrocity than the holocaust.
What I am saying is that ignoring the plight of millions of refugees, pretending they don't exist, calling them all terrorists, supporting their collective punishment or ignoring the giant concentration camp known as Gaza will not save Israel. I don't know what will lead to peace here. I suspect the process leading to Israel's destruction is now irreversable. In which case Canada as one of the signatories which created this problem should be prepard to accept a wave of Jewish refugees fleeing Israel in the final days of destruction. I am not in favor of Canada repeating this disgraceful act:
Voyage of the Damned:
SS St. Louis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jewish refugees fleeing the holocaust in Europe ended up in the region known as Palestine against the wishes of the people already living there. The Jewish refugees called Palestine "a land without people for a people without land." Nothing could have been further from the truth. Over a million people and only a few Jews lived in Palestine before WW II.
Instead of being grateful that they had a safe haven in this region, a core group of Jewish refugees known as Zionists plotted to ethnically cleanse the area of non-Jews to create a pure Jewish state. The Zionsist put their violent plans in action soon after the end of WW II. By 1948 Zionists were systematically slaughtering entire villages like Deir Yassin. Atrocities were committed by both sides, but the Zionists were the ones who started the ethnic cleansing with the intent of creating a Jewish only state. Palestinian violence against the refugees was a reaction to violence. Zionist ethnic cleansing caused the 1948 war. 800,000 people do not abandon their homes willingly, in the same way that people fleeing a burning building don't willingly flee their apartments. Israel's declaration of independance was an official announcement that the entire region would be cleansed of non-Jews. That announcement was the last straw for neighboring countries which were experiencing a flood of refugees from ethnically cleansed Palestine and triggered the 1948 war. During the decades after the start of the war, millions of Jews immigrated to Israel. Some suffered oppression, injustice and/or threats to personal security and are legitimate refugees, but most left their countries of origin voluntarily in a planned and orderly manner and are therefore immigrants. People should be aware of the sequence of events. The wave of Jewish immigration was a result of both a desire to live in a Jewish state as citizens with preferential rights and privileges and rising Arab anti-semitism resulting from past and present Israeli crimes against Arab Palestinians.
Israel's ethnic cleansing, like the Nazi holocaust is a crime against humanity. The people who had the misfortune of not being Jewish in a region the UN declared to be a Jewish state were never consulted. Most found themselves being attacked by armed foreigners and fled for their lives. They were stripped of their land and property and have never received compensation or been allowed to return home as per international law. The UN and all the nations which voted in favor of recognizing Israel, despite the crimes and acts of terrorism which lead to its creation, are responsible for the consequences. So far that is 60 years of ongoing war and 4 million + nationless refugees.
Until Israel and the rest of the world comes to terms with this ongoing injustice and oppression suffered by millions, this region will remain in a state of war. If a peaceful just compromise is not found, then this war will eventually end with the Israel's destruction. That's not a wish or desire on my part but an observation of longterm trends.
Over time Israel's enemies have continued to grow in numbers and strength. The 2006 Israel/Lebanon war shows that Israel's adversaries can hold their own militarily against Israel. What they can't do yet is kill civilians as effectively as Israel can. But on the 2006 battlefield, Israel's adversaries proved they were about evenly matched.
In order to survive Israel must win every battle. In order for Israel's adversaries to defeat Israel they need only win once. A time is coming when Israel's adversaries will be able to kill civilians as easily as Israel. When that time comes, there will be a final battle in this war and Israel will loose. That battle will likely result in millions of civilian casualties and be an even greater atrocity than the holocaust.
What I am saying is that ignoring the plight of millions of refugees, pretending they don't exist, calling them all terrorists, supporting their collective punishment or ignoring the giant concentration camp known as Gaza will not save Israel. I don't know what will lead to peace here. I suspect the process leading to Israel's destruction is now irreversable. In which case Canada as one of the signatories which created this problem should be prepard to accept a wave of Jewish refugees fleeing Israel in the final days of destruction. I am not in favor of Canada repeating this disgraceful act:
Voyage of the Damned:
SS St. Louis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Israel: good intel, great soldiers, great equipment, great spooks and only go where there is no chance of reprisal. Too smart for everyone. Including Iran and the Americans.
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The same could be said about ancient Greece and Rome or the Mongols.... All empires fall sooner or later.
In 2006, Israel's adversaries proved they can hold their own against Israel's finest. What they lacked was Israel's ability to rain carnage down on civilian targets. For the most part their rockets were ineffective due to limited range and destructive capability. I imagine it won't be long before they also acquire the same ability to destroy civilian targets as Israel. For now they've proven that Israel cannot invade Lebanon with ground forces.
Matt M. Matthews, a military historian at the Combat Studies Institute of the U.S. Army Command and General Staff College praised Hezbollah paramilitaries and reflected on what he described as "the lackluster performance of the IDF":
In 2006, Israel's adversaries proved they can hold their own against Israel's finest. What they lacked was Israel's ability to rain carnage down on civilian targets. For the most part their rockets were ineffective due to limited range and destructive capability. I imagine it won't be long before they also acquire the same ability to destroy civilian targets as Israel. For now they've proven that Israel cannot invade Lebanon with ground forces.
Matt M. Matthews, a military historian at the Combat Studies Institute of the U.S. Army Command and General Staff College praised Hezbollah paramilitaries and reflected on what he described as "the lackluster performance of the IDF":
Your link is blank!! Conspiracy going on??
I'll leave this interesting and informative article instead:
Isn't it too bad Olmert has to leave? Now nothing will become of the settler dismantling plans. At least not for a very long while. With this kind of violence on top of the usual military's nightly raids and shootings, it is no wonder the Palestinians get angry and frustrated and retaliate with a rocket or to over the wall.News Middle East
Settlers vandalise Arab graves
Israeli soldiers were said to have been
threatened during the rampage [AFP]
Jewish settlers have gone on a rampage in the West Bank, vandalising a Muslim cemetery and threatening Israeli troops.
Settlers from the Harat al-Jabari neighbourhood in the city of Hebron were responding on Sunday to the dismantling a West Bank outpost by the Israeli army.
Four settlers were arrested, including one for allegedly injuring a policeman and two who are suspected of trying to set fire to police cars, police officials said.
Settlers also slashed the tyres of two dozen Arab-owned cars and sprayed paint on Muslim graves, the Israeli military said.
One resident, speaking on Israel Army Radio, called for revenge attacks against the Israeli soldiers.
Ehud Olmert, the outgoing Israeli prime minister, called for a crackdown on the settlers involved and told his cabinet that such violence would not be accepted.
'No tolerance'
"We will not show any tolerance concerning such comments, and concerning such actions," he said at Sunday's cabinet meeting.
"We are fed up with this verbal violence."
Micky Rosenfeld, an Israeli police spokesman, said that an investigation had been opened.
The outpost bulldozed by the Israeli army had been built without government authority and was lived in by Noam Federman, a ultranationalist settler leader.
Hebron has long been a pressure point of relations between Israeli's and Palestinians in the West Bank.
Increasing violence
Israeli human rights groups and senior military officials have said that violence against Palestinians by the some of the 300,000 settlers in the West Bank has increased in recent months.
Major General Gadi Shamni, an Israeli army commander, said last month that hundreds of settlers were now carrying out attacks.
Critics have previously said settlers have been allowed to act with impunity in the West Bank, especially with regards to violence against Palestinians.
One of the conditions of a US-sponsored peace deal between Israel and the Palestinians demands that settlement activity be frozen and dozens of the about 100 settlements on land deemed necessary for a Palestinian state are dismantled.
Settlers' resolve to keep outposts in the West Bank has strengthened since Israel removed its settlements from Gaza in 2005.
Ideological settlers believe God promised the West Bank to the Jews, although not all agree on the use of violence to attain territory.
How do the atrocities suffered by Jews in Europe justify committing new atrocities against the people living in Palestine? How does being a victim of an atrocity justify committing an atrocity?
They don't.
Now Palestinian actions justify Palestinian occupation mind you.
Its often called an illegal occupation, but its not illegal to occupy land while your still at war.
Has Syria surrendered yet considering how badly it lost? Maybe it should think about it if it wants peace.
It started the war, it lost the war, surrender to official end the mess might be a good first step.
Now Palestinian actions justify Palestinian occupation mind you.
Its often called an illegal occupation, but its not illegal to occupy land while your still at war.
Has Syria surrendered yet considering how badly it lost? Maybe it should think about it if it wants peace.
It started the war, it lost the war, surrender to official end the mess might be a good first step.
Z is right that there is a war, but most Palestinians were innocent victims. Palestinians were overrun by Jewish refugees and most were ethncally cleansed from Palestine. Given what they experienced, its understandable some of them would turn to violence. The entire sad story is summarized here:
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]History of Israel and Palestine:[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]1947 UN Partition Proposal [/FONT]
(click here for history before 1947)
[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Palestine 1947 Map[/FONT]
[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Population of Palestine 1947 TOTAL 1,845,000[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]67% [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]non-Jewish[/SIZE][/FONT]
[SIZE=-1][FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]( 1,237,000 )[/FONT][/SIZE][FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]33%[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1] Jewish
[/SIZE][/FONT]
[SIZE=-1][FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]( 608,000 )[/FONT][/SIZE]
[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]UN Partition Recommendation[/FONT]
[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]November 29, 1947 Map [/FONT]
[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Land[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Proposed [/SIZE][/FONT][SIZE=-1][FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Jewish State[/FONT][/SIZE]
[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Percentage of the land of Palestine [/SIZE][/FONT][SIZE=-1][FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]that was proposed for each State[/FONT][/SIZE]
[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Proposed Jewish State on 56.47% of the land (excluding Jerusalem)[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Proposed [/SIZE][/FONT][SIZE=-1][FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Arab State[/FONT][/SIZE]
[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Proposed Arab Palestinian State on 43.53% of the land[/SIZE][/FONT]
[SIZE=-1][FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][/FONT][/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif](excluding Jerusalem)[/FONT][/SIZE][FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Proposed Internationally Administered Zone that would have included Jerusalem[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]People[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Population for the International trusteeship regime in Jerusalem[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]105,000 Arabs [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]100,000[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Jews[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Population for the proposed[/SIZE][/FONT]
[SIZE=-1][FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Jewish State[/FONT][/SIZE][FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Population for the proposed[/SIZE][/FONT]
[SIZE=-1][FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Arab State[/FONT][/SIZE]
[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]498,000 Jews[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]807,000 [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]Arabs [/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]325,000 Arabs[/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]10,000Jews[/SIZE][/FONT]
In practice, Zionists did not accept the UN Partition Plan. Zionists seized areas beyond the proposed Jewish State and did not recognize the International Zone. Using force and terrorism months before May 1948, Jews seized land beyond the UN proposed borders. The UN Plan was used as a pretense for taking over most of Palestine.
NOTE: This is a critical fact often omitted when the history is presented and this leads to a very distorted view of what happened in 1948. The misleading story often told is that "Jews declared Israel and then they were attacked." The fact is from November 1947 to May 1948 the Zionists were already on the offensive and had already attacked Arabs. In the months before Israel was declared, the Zionists had driven 300,000 non-Jews off their land. In the months before Israel was declared, the Zionists had seized land beyond the proposed Jewish State. SEE Sources or this blog entry: Sources for the Israeli/Palestinian situation 1947-1948
[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Top three recommended books on the Israel and Palestine[/FONT]It is the Zionists that pushed for the radical idea that the land be divided up so that a "pure" racially established state of Jews could be established. They didn't want to live as equal citizens as is expected of all religions in America. But the division was only considered temporary by them since their goal was and is to take over all of Palestine.
[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]See more info and other recommended books here:[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Recommended Books[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]on Israel and Palestine[/FONT]
The Gun and the Olive Branch, Fateful Triangle and Image and Reality of the Israel-Palestine Conflict
The key Zionists had no intention of accepting that UN partition, a recommendation to chop up Palestine into 7 parts. 67% of the population didn't what that done. In 1938 Ben-Gurion said to other Zionists, “after we become a strong force, as the result of the creation of a state, we shall abolish partition and expand to the whole of Palestine.” Sure enough, after the creation of the state in 1948, Menachem Begin made clear how serious the “Jews accepting the UN partition” was in reality, “The partition of the Homeland is illegal . It will never be recognized.The signature of institutions and individuals of the partition agreement is invalid. It will not bind the Jewish people. Jerusalem was and will forever be our capital. Eretz Israel (the land of Israel) will be restored to the people of Israel, All of it. And forever“.
"A partial Jewish state is not the end, but only the beginning ... I am certain that we will not be prevented from settling in the other parts of the country, either by mutual agreement with our Arab neighbors <i>or by some other means...[If the Arabs refuse] <i>we shall have to speak to them in a different language. But we shall only have another language if we have a state." p162 Fateful Triangle The United States, Israel, and the Palestinians
Zionists immediately started seizing land, even land beyond what the UN partition set for the proposed Jewish State. Attacks were from both sides but were instigated by the Zionists seizing land and a reaction to the aggressive ethnic cleansing under way. After the massive ethnic cleansing and expansion beyond the UN suggested boarders, Arab states responded INTO THE AREAS THAT WERE TO BE FOR THE UN PROPOSED PALESTINIAN STATE. Also, Jordan had an agreement with Israel to prevent a Palestinian State so Jordan invaded the West Bank.
"The Zionists were by far the more powerful and better organized force, and by May 1948, when the state of Israel was formally established, about 300,000 Palestinians already had been expelled from their homes or had fled the fighting, and the Zionists controlled a region well beyond the area of the original Jewish state that had been proposed by the UN. Now it's then that Israel was attacked by its neighbors - in May 1948; it's then, after the Zionists had taken control of this much larger part of the region and hundreds of thousands of civilians had been forced out, not before." p132 Understanding Power: The Indispensable Chomsky
The fact that the rights of the majority, 67% of the population, were violated is suppressed in the media. Why in the world would you think it is legitimate for 33% of a population to seize land and carve up the land into 7 parts? Why in the world should 67% of a population ever accept that? These population stats, which highlight just how undemocratic the UN proposal really was, are almost never mentioned in US media.
The 1947 proposal was not the first land division scheme, the Peel Commission suggested a partition plan in 1937. Also if you look into it, the Zionists had no intention of accepting any fair partition. As Ben-Gurion himself said in 1937, "No Zionist can forgo the smallest portion of Eretz Israel." (see p162 Fateful Triangle The United States, Israel, and the Palestinians)
The May 1948 unilateral declaration was by less than 33% of the population who were imposing their will on 67% of the non-Jews. In Nov 1947 the UN made a recommendation for a three-way partition of Palestine into a Jewish State, an Arab State and a small internationally administered zone that would have included Jerusalem. This was a recommendation by the UN General Assembly and General Assembly recommendations have no force, they are only recommendations. In fact Israel is the greatest rejecter of General Assembly resolutions by the way. When the recommendation was made, war broke out between the Palestinians and the Zionists who had been planning on taking over and before the end of the war they had amassed much more arms.
By May 1948, when the Jews (33%) unilaterally declared "the state of Israel", 300,000 Palestinians had already been ethnically cleansed (forced from their homes or had fled the fighting) by the Zionists and the Zionists had stolen a region well beyond the area of the original Jewish State that was proposed by the UN. Then, after the Zionists had taken control of this much larger part of the region and hundreds of thousands of civilians had been forced out, "Israel" was attacked by its neighbors.
In 1967 the Jews attacked and took over the remaining part of Palestine with the intention of keeping it. All through the supposed "peace process" they have been illegally building on the occupied territories....
Source for stats, see link: BBC NEWS | In Depth | Israel and the Palestinians | key documents | UN Partition Plan
SEE: Sources or this blog entry: Sources for the Israeli/Palestinian situation 1947-1948
History of Israel: 1947 UN Partition Proposal
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Very nice of you to include non Jews in the Holocaust body count, Colpy. You are making progress slow but still.
A shikse is a shikse. Get Maury Pauvich to do a DNA?? I guess his child would not be Jewish either.
Rabbis' ruling puts thousands of converts in limbo - Yahoo! News
Anyone have any information on how well Israel is or is not being touched by the USA etc. economic situation?
A shikse is a shikse. Get Maury Pauvich to do a DNA?? I guess his child would not be Jewish either.
Rabbis' ruling puts thousands of converts in limbo - Yahoo! News
Anyone have any information on how well Israel is or is not being touched by the USA etc. economic situation?
Israeli Rabbis aren't the only ones who had a hard time determining who is and isn't a Jew. The Nazis had the same problem.
In the case of Israel, Jewishness determines who is entitled to a Jewish wedding and funeral as well as the right to immigrate to Israel, own land...
In the case of Nazi Germany, Jewishness determined who went to extermination camps...
That's common problem whenever a state tries to make itself pure. Defining purity.
In the case of Israel, Jewishness determines who is entitled to a Jewish wedding and funeral as well as the right to immigrate to Israel, own land...
In the case of Nazi Germany, Jewishness determined who went to extermination camps...
That's common problem whenever a state tries to make itself pure. Defining purity.
Do you qualify as a person? A human being. A caring soul.?
If you do, tell me how. Please justify your existence.
In great detail and don't use big words, I will get confused.
No links and no downloads, please.
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Just a small incident, eao, but it is said it is the norm, happens all the time! So, it can't be just one bad apple as suggested.
Doesn't that ring a bell? Iraq - Abu Ghraib? Now we know the orders came from the top of the command chain. Lies, lies and more lies!
BBC NEWS | Middle East | Israel army studies 'abuse video'
At some point you are going to see, in this twisted world that we now live in, that these atrocities will only get worse, not better.
The ultimately sad and sorrowful thing is that no-one cares now for it has been going on too long and is now part of their everyday life and will never change.