Is this jesus or satan

[darkbeaver]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Luke 19.27 Not the word of the Lord? Oh yes it is![/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Christian apologists squirm and wriggle over this infamous command of Jesus to murder his enemies. "It's not Jesus," they say, "It's the 'harsh master' in the parable." But is it?[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] Luke builds to JC's big finish in Jerusalem by having his meandering hero tell a series of parables along the way. Luke 19 is the link from Jericho to the Temple itself. In verses 1-10, near Jericho, the godman invites himself into the house of a dwarfish publican called Zacchaeus and rewards the guy with salvation after Zac' says he is going to give half his goods to the poor.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]At verse 11 a new scene is set: JC is about to depart (and of course he knows crucifixion awaits him); his audience think the Kingdom of God is at hand.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]JC responds with the infamous parable, which is actually an attempt by 2nd century gospel writers to deal with issues raised by the "delayed kingdom". The believing brethren have the "good news" but what are they to do with it?[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The parable starts with the words "A certain man of noble birth went far to receive a kingdom. And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds." Is this JC? The answer is to be found in an earlier version of the same yarn – in Matthew[/FONT]:

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"For the Kingdom of Heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods."[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] – 25,14 [/FONT]

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[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Matthew[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] tells his version of the story using just 3 servants (they represent the Christian brethren, "servants of the Lord'). "After a long time the Lord of those servants cometh" (25.19). There is a reckoning (the Day of Judgement). The lord is well pleased with 2 of them who have successfully "earned interest on his money." [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy Lord." – 25,21[/FONT]

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[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The third servant however, who denounces his lord as harsh, says he was "afraid" and simply hid the lord's investment. A displeased lord turns on him as a "wicked and slothful servant" (25:27).[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The point of the story? This is how Matthew rounds it off:[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." – 25.29,30[/FONT]

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[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]In other words this so-called Parable of the Harsh Master / Parable of the Talents is a story about what Christians are to do with the "gospel" as they wait for the coming of the Kingdom of Heaven. They are to spread the word ("grow the Lord's money"), not hide it away. Correctly understood, this is the parable of the slothful servant, threatened with "outer darkness."[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]When Luke copied Matthew's efforts he added a new element: "reluctant citizens" of the new kingdom (no doubt he had in mind recalcitrant pagans). [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us." – 19.14[/FONT]

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[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Luke[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] followed closely Matthew's story but replaced the final bit threatening "outer darkness" to lazy brethren with a more immediate and tangible injunction aimed at "enemies":[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"I tell you, that to every one who has will more be given; but from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me." – 19.27 [/FONT]

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[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Where did Luke get his inspiration? A nobleman "travelling far to receive a kingdom" is a rare enough event. Josephus's Antiquities of the Jews - Book 17, chapter 11 maps the story and also provides all the ingredients for both 19.14 and 19.27.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] With the death of Herod the Great, his son Archelaus – of noble birth – journeyed to Rome to "receive his kingdom" from Emperor Augustus. But at the same time an embassy of the Jews petitioned Caesar that "out of their hatred to him" Archelaus not "be set over their kingdom". Archelaus had slaughtered 3000 of his enemies at the Temple.[/FONT] [FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The emperor eventually removed him and sent him into exile in 6 AD.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Josephus wrote Antiquities of the Jews around 93 AD.

[/FONT]http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/murderers.htm

 

[MHz]

If the short version doesn't satisfy your mind there is a longer versions (actual passages and all the tributaries attached to the main topic). It is only at the one time that the armies of heaven bring anybody to stand before Christ and be Judged.
The visit in the past was to deliver the news that there would be a gathering and a judgment, and to verify a few things that pointed specifically to that end.. It also defined who the NT was meant for.For the ones He has given money to that makes them mission bound. Being lax has consequences that see the shepherd and not the flock being chastised, and given stripes.

The longer version also tends to support the facts that Christ does all the killing He is going to do at the very first few moments of His arrival, yet that is far from being the final battle against evil. To win that final battle, after a period of 'calm', fire from God in Heaven is used, the ones killed are strangly absent from that event .

The only time Christ uses the demand (to kneel or die)is when He claims the Earth as part of His Kingdom. The one that was not here when He said 'my kingdom is not of this 'place/world'. He was a stranger in a strange land, when He does arrive it is with those 12 legions of angels that He mentioned just before the cross. It is those legions that would be the ones sent to 'retrieve everybody for judgment'. The NT supports that will happen at a specific time. The NT gives the minute details on just how that will unfold.

How could anybody possibly improve on the imagery that these verses manifest in both the learned and un-learned??

Joe:2:2-13:
A day of darkness and of gloominess,
a day of clouds and of thick darkness,
as the morning spread upon the mountains:
a great people and a strong;
there hath not been ever the like,
neither shall be any more after it,
even to the years of many generations.
A fire devoureth before them;
and behind them a flame burneth:
the land is as the garden of Eden before them,
and behind them a desolate wilderness;
yea,
and nothing shall escape them.
The appearance of them is as the appearance of horses;
and as horsemen,
so shall they run.
Like the noise of chariots on the tops of mountains shall they leap,
like the noise of a flame of fire that devoureth the stubble,
as a strong people set in battle array.
Before their face the people shall be much pained:
all faces shall gather blackness.
They shall run like mighty men;
they shall climb the wall like men of war;
and they shall march every one on his ways,
and they shall not break their ranks:
Neither shall one thrust another;
they shall walk every one in his path:
and when they fall upon the sword,
they shall not be wounded.
They shall run to and fro in the city;
they shall run upon the wall,
they shall climb up upon the houses;
they shall enter in at the windows like a thief.
The earth shall quake before them;
the heavens shall tremble:
the sun and the moon shall be dark,
and the stars shall withdraw their shining:
And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army:
for his camp is very great:
for he is strong that executeth his word:
for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible;
and who can abide it?
Therefore also now,
saith the LORD,
turn ye even to me with all your heart,
and with fasting,
and with weeping,
and with mourning:
And rend your heart,
and not your garments,
and turn unto the LORD your God:
for he is gracious and merciful,
slow to anger,
and of great kindness,
and repenteth him of the evil.

Even at this point redemption still seems possible for those who are alive.

The corrupt version of that might be 'normal people brought before some humans who are judging as if they are God'. Christian war is a paradox just in itself so no need to single out the RCC or any specific offshoot as all fall well short of the mark.

In the move from parable to real-world how is a servant of the 'owner' (or similar term) different from 'others' He is expected to do certain things as described in the agreement. For that he will be compensated with payment after the master returns. Rewards cannot be 'advanced'.

From what I understand about chastisement from above it comes to those who ignore the downtrodden of the ones they rub shoulders with on a daily basis. The ones who are acting as shepherds might well be taken to task for not caring about some that are outside their daily contacts.
That does not leave a Christian at the mercy of wrong-doers. It just has to be handled in a certain way, first try to settle it between themselves. Next plead the cases before somebody who would be fair to both parties as to who is right and who is wrong. If that fails take it before the highest authority available. Within the Church it would be the Church 'elders'. In the carnal world it would be the court system or similar body that could rule on a dispute between two people.

Just to rile up the atheists, I'm quite sure the punishment is like a spanking rather that being put through a wood-chipper type of thing. lol

Romans:13 denotes the full authority Jesus left men in charge of concerning the time between His departure and the return.

The real problem getting a real clear picture of how God said it would unfold is not that there is a lack of words it is that there are almost too many.

Jesus could never utter that satanic events should be done under any circumstances. That doesn't mean He would flinch or hesitate to remove what persons need to be removed before the true kingdom can stand.

Even on our very best day we might want to keep the 'repent some previous words' option open.

 

[Liberalman]

Jesus

 

[Spade]

Nonsense.

 

[MHz]

Perhaps the first tangent we should explore is the myth that 'having the Gospel of God' enter your world is 'good news', it should also come with an apology because what is about to befall them is totally bad news' if read before the kingdom of God is re-established. Slow by our terms but if in heavenly terms the desires of a small child who is a begotten child of God.

X amount of time has to pass before God would allow 1/3 of all created angels be banished into the fire (one-way door) to actually be sent there. Christ is given that power over mankind, He can send them to hell. It is Almighty God who determines who the lake consumes. That is a place you cannot be sent to if you have not seen God's face and lived.

 

[Ron in Regina]

So this isn't about Al Gore then? 8O

Jesus?

Satan?

Jesus?

Satan?

I guess only time will tell....:--?;-):lol:

 

[Cliffy]

Nonsense.

It does boggle the mind alright! The loopy bin is full of such characters.

 

[MHz]

So this isn't about Al Gore then? 8O
I guess only time will tell....:--?;-):lol:

Well you could gain some insight in just what is said to occur in the 'only time' part of things. I wonder if God left us any 'hockey-sticks' in Scripture.

The 1st chapter of the first book seems to accelerate created beings as the days go on, the classic 'hockey-stick- that Al used.
Certainly when counting species many more came into being on the 6th day than on the 1st day. Would you agree with that assessment?
There is nothing gradual about the way He pours out wrath.

 

[Cannuck]

In that quote, Jesus isn't talking about himself, he's continuing on with a story and talking about God's response to one of his servants'.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

It's neither Jesus nor Satan. Jesus might have been a real person, though much of what he's reported as having said probably has nothing to do with reality, Satan has no reality at all except as a human idea. It's people, inventing things to suit their agendas.

 

[talloola]

It's neither Jesus nor Satan. Jesus might have been a real person, though much of what he's reported as having said probably has nothing to do with reality, Satan has no reality at all except as a human idea. It's people, inventing things to suit their agendas.

and terrify each other, and their children, by making them think that a devil
is actually trying to control their lives, how ludicrous, and abusive, then they
invented a god to battle the devil, 'talk about holy wars', that is the mother
of them all.

 

[darkbeaver]

It's neither Jesus nor Satan. Jesus might have been a real person, though much of what he's reported as having said probably has nothing to do with reality, Satan has no reality at all except as a human idea. It's people, inventing things to suit their agendas.

Reality? When we say the written word has naught to do with reality we are in error. All our reality is of course human ideas. What invention did not have an agenda pushing it's realization? Jesus may have been a bunch of people he may only have been an idea or a composite, all within the real, it's a real story, a real transmission of ideas about past and future events.:smile:

 

[darkbeaver]

Hi MHZ I hope you're having a great summer. I always learn something from your excellent posts.I was reading some Mayan 2012 thing last night it strikes me as very similar to your post above.

 

[MHz]

and terrify each other, and their children, by making them think that a devil is actually trying to control their lives, how ludicrous, and abusive, then they
invented a god to battle the devil, 'talk about holy wars', that is the mother
of them all.

Do you find the promise of eternal life an act of terror because God hands out punishment before that is granted? If that is how He greets you when He meets you then that is just a preview of the rest of eternity for you at least. That isn't how it goes.

A parable is as simple a teaching tool as you can get. Bring in a 3rd party, and more after, as many as it takes. It softens the message.

Any parable cannot become real when it talks about a master coming home or a landlord coming home or a field reaper and have it happen before the 7th trump in Revelation. The very beginning of rewards is no sooner than the time called great tribulation. It is the 7 vials of Re:16, it is the fire that consumes Babylon. Those few events must happen in full before the Kingdom of God can be said to be established on Earth. It is quite specific on the 'requirements needed to exist before the stamp of the 'one true God' would be manifest in physical form. The dead being alive is one big clue that it has arrived. 2nd is that Israel as far back as Jocob and Israel are alive and well and at home. For the next 1,000 years they play host to the nations that come to Christ's House of Prayer. once a year for a party. After the week it was back to the 'normal routine' Even's Jesus's mom went to weddings (week long affairs) wher the wine ran out.as soon as all the mess is cleared up I hear it is going to be quite splendid, well worth a yearly visit. Grain, vine and fresh water fish, all included free of charge. Let me think, I believe the best time to admit to sin is before God is about to take control of your next turn in the path to returning to God, reguardless, grace and mercy cover all sins committed while drawing the first breath. Eternity has no such conflicts in that area.

Since you fear that day maybe the parable of the penny will bring you some comfort. The conflict God has with those 'at the end of the day when wages are being paid out' are only those who were hired first (or see themselves as being first on some list God has written down somewhere) have a dispute with God. Those 'hired after the first are quite content with the wages they recieve, totally equal, one penny is one penny on a daily basis. The real question is when is days end. it would seem to be when great tribulation starts. Everything upto that point has been the work of forces against the way God would have it. Satan is no slouch but coming out of Heaven backwards is not a real sign of extreme power either. Bad Satan, bad.

The world Christ promotes is the one where the whole of the Kingdom is judged on how well the least in the Kingdom are doing. The corrupt way that is a big failure in the end was inspired back before Noah. The remnants of how the world operated back then is what our world is modeled on. The many support the easy lifestyle of a select few at the extreme expense on those called the poor.

If you have some other way of defining it please post the difference.

The spread of the Gospel should have included the apology. In most cases the Native populations were devastated when encounters with Europeans first began then increased. Extermination was preferred over conversion.

Belief in God and Christ would also mean belief in somebody who wears the title 'liar and murderer from the start'. Satan's first sins. The NT talks about a sin that reaches into heaven that gets a quick reply. Satan is said to have a man claim that 'they' are capable of marking people as their property as they are God and Christ. A lot of sins can get noticed and jotted down for later discussion. Some warrant action right away. The sin in the Garden doesn't say a lot of time passed from the eating until God called for them to appear before Him. Satan giving people a mark would not go over well with the one who can rightfully mark somebody (as well as change their name) Once the next sin is committed action should be quick quick.

It isn't a case of the devil made me do it, it is more like acts that cause pain and suffering for others is Satan's preferred method of doing things.

 

[talloola]

Very nicely said, and well learned, BUT doesn't connect to my thought process at
all, I don't believe in any god, or any devil, or sin, or judgement at the end of ones
life, so it is all a 'fairy tale' for me, and I'm glad of that.
I am not trashing anything, just making a point that none of it touches me in any
way, I am free of that path in life, and I don't even have to try, it just 'is what it is', for me, and I accept myself as I am, and happy to be at this place.
I had years of religious teaching, which I am glad of, as it definitely gave me the
ability to choose.

 

[MHz]

I don't believe in any god, or any devil, or sin, or judgement at the end of ones life,

I am not trashing anything, just making a point that none of it touches me in anyway, I am free of that path in life,

That's okay with me. However belief has nothing to do with matters. You still live in a sinful world. Unless you want to define sin as something different than the pages of the Bible then sin is all around you. Know any liars??? Has anybody ever been murdered, are the adulterous affairs concluded. Come on, unless you live in a make-believe world all that can be found every day (some thankfully as a news headline).
That isn't saying you are a sinner, it should be quite obvious that sin can find you or somebody you love in todays world at any moment. How many lies are told daily on a worldwide scale?
The classic is 'I will lie to them because it is for their own good.'. People actually believe this sort of crap, at times as an excuse to remain unaware of the rest of the story. Death is one of the most explained topics in Scripture.
Whether you like it or not this is not the end all of the story of you.
The sad part is that in all your training you have never been shown what changes will happen, apparently.

The Bible pretty much opens with death being part of the topic. It has affected all your forefathers, it will affect you at some point, and it will visit all of your children.
Even if you don't buy the entirety a read of Job should give you an idea of what areas of live Satan can affect. Monetary lifestyle plays a role, so does soundness of body. Clear thinking might also play a role. That way when the devil comes up in a Christian thread you have more to go on other than just totally mythical entity'. The Bible's version is quite detailed, not only in the basic 'way-things-go' but also to why and by whom and when (on His event-line) The graphical version would resemble a tree of sorts with verses making up the different parts. The left-to-right linear does nor render well to single verses that covers more than one time-frame. Nor can multiple events be easily implemented. The tree structure could use that as just a blooming event. Once there were two branches/roots, now there are more.

I find it quite comforting and more than a little disturbing that God would determine something and then go straight (very same passage) to circumventing that very directive. The specific was that only God knows the exact time of Jesus's return with the power of the sword. (the bible would have an answer to the minute question was it Jesus or Christ who was around for those 40 days after resurrection.
BTW For antbody that cares the thieves were with Christ later that same day. He may have died but He was most definately not asleep. He went to greet the very first awoken Saints. These are the 24 Elders that are around the throne when the conntdown is over and power is now manifested in a specific time and sequence. Three woes are right up there with things.

This could go further but then I might actually be using you as a springboard.
That isn't the agenda. One non-beliecer asked me point-blank, "Is there a plan?" "Yes" was the reply......I then added and a damned good one (if havings lots of minute facts included is a sign of being quite through). That was all he cared to know and I never offered any finer detail.

Personally I wouild suggest you read the preface to the 1611KJV. At the end of the first read ask yourself, "Do they seem sincere in their statement to you, the gentle reader?"
There are enough names referenced some sort of data could be collected.

That is not going to help you understand Scripture. It takes a free E-bible that allows for the 'public edition' to keep up.

If this is your first time search for grace and/or mercy. New search for each topic of interest. A feast for the beasts of the field includes searches for feast for the fowl of the air, etc. You get less than 10 returns, most of those refer to the very same time. The day the liars bite the dust, as do the thieves, etc.

I would put a 'busybody' as somebody who buts in without invitation of some other basic infringement on a person's "Christian rights" equally applied to all
How would you define 'busybody'?

 

[MHz]

Hi MHZ I hope you're having a great summer. I always learn something from your excellent posts.I was reading some Mayan 2012 thing last night it strikes me as very similar to your post above.

Well do you have a spare 28954 seconds?? Drizzly subject at times.

It should be possible for our sun to appear black just when we cross the exact central plane (most stars in a single line). I have a hard time seeing that sort of event as being associated with God. It was 'discovered' long, long ago. God only determined His version as late as 92AD.

God's arrival would have to come from the area we call the void (180deg from galactic centerline). Coming from someplace that all eyes are on is not coming in like a thief in the night.From that location anyday is quite possible as the starting day.
A black hole would make a wonderful prison for Satan (and all like minded)don't you agree?

In the hijack dept did you ever read the Prairie Boys and the Banksters? A little indepth investigation into the legal system might turn up something just as 'entertaining'. A large enough script might be miniseries material. This article is somewhat dated, I'll try to find an update if you would like.

 

[Cliffy]

Tallooa has stated that she doesn't believe in god, the devil, sin or the bible and you give her a two thousand word lecture on how to read the bible to prove sin exists. What planet are you living on? Why would anybody who thinks the bible is a bunch of nonsense want to read the damn thing?

The greatest trick the devil accomplished was convincing humans that he was god. The Satan of the bible positively looks like a kind and gentle soul compared to your god.

 

[talloola]

Tallooa has stated that she doesn't believe in god, the devil, sin or the bible and you give her a two thousand word lecture on how to read the bible to prove sin exists. What planet are you living on? Why would anybody who thinks the bible is a bunch of nonsense want to read the damn thing?

The greatest trick the devil accomplished was convincing humans that he was god. The Satan of the bible positively looks like a kind and gentle soul compared to your god.

Nice to know someone 'heard' me, and 'understood' me, it really wasn't difficult.

 

[Cliffy]

Nice to know someone 'heard' me, and 'understood' me, it really wasn't difficult.

You are welcome. Some people seem to live in another reality... hell most people do.:wink: