Is the U.S. Insolvent

[Albertabound]

How did it happen? After previous attempts to push the Federal Reserve Act through Congress, a group of bankers funded and staffed Woodrow Wilson's campaign for President. He had committed to sign this act. In 1913, a Senator, Nelson Aldrich, maternal grandfather to the Rockefellers, pushed the Federal Reserve Act through Congress just before Christmas when much of Congress was on vacation. When elected, Wilson passed the FED. Later, Wilson remorsefully replied, referring to the FED, Now the banks financially back sympathetic candidates. Not surprisingly, most of these candidates are elected.

....and stay with the group

The bankers employ members of the Congress on weekends (nickname T&T club -out Thursday...in Tuesday with lucrative salaries. Additionally, the FED started buying up the media in the 1930's and now owns or significantly influences most of it. Presidents Lincoln, Jackson, and Kennedy tried to stop this family of bankers by printing U.S. dollars without charging the taxpayers interest. Today, if the government runs a deficit, the FED prints dollars through the U.S. Treasury, buys the debt, and the dollars are circulated into the economy. In 1992, taxpayers paid the FED banking system $286 billion in interest on debt the FED purchased by printing money virtually cost free. Forty percent of our personal federal income taxes goes to pay this interest. The FED's books are not open to the public. Congress has yet to audit it. Congressman Wright Patman was Chairman of the House of Representatives Committee on Banking and Currency for 40 years. For 20 of those years, he introduced legislation to repeal the Federal Reserve Banking Act of 1913. Congressman Henry Gonzales, Chairman of a banking committee, introduced legislation to repeal the Federal Reserve Banking Act of 1913 almost every year. It's always defeated, the media remains silent, and the public never learns the truth. The same bankers who own the FED control the media and give huge political contributions to sympathetic members of Congress.











More wrong things - most of the US debt is not held by the US government. It is held by investors who are not the US government.

Where in that whole quote does it say anything about the U.S. debt being held by the US government.

Do you just make Sh*t up or what?

and your little pie chart tells us this how?

http://www.economyincrisis.org/foreignconsumedgoods.asp

http://www.economyincrisis.org/foreignownedind.asp

http://www.economyincrisis.org/foreignfinanceddebt.asp

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[Albertabound]

most of the US debt is not held by the US government. It is held by investors who are not the US government

Whom do we owe this money to?

Federal Reserve and government accounts (40.6%0:
Foreign and international (22.7%):
Private pension funds (6.5%):
Mutual funds (6.3%):
Misc. others(5.4%):
States and local governments (4.2%):
Commercial banks, S&Ls, and credit unions (4.2%):
State and local government pension funds (3.5%):
U.S. Savings bonds 3.3%):
Insurances companies (3.3%):

Keep in mind ....once again that the Federal Reserve is not...not the U.S. government

 

[Albertabound]

Still wondering where that interest went?

Using the figures for 2002 (the last relatively normal year before the United Sates was at war in Iraq), total assets in the form of bank credit for all US commercial banks were reported to be $5.89 trillion. (9) Assuming an average interest rate of 6 percent, about $353 billion in interest income was thus paid to commercial banks. This interest was earned, not be lending anything of their own, but by advancing the ‘full faith and credit of the United States.’ Returning this interest to the collective body of the people to whom it properly belongs would thus have generated revenue for the government of $353 billion in 2002.


Can you or can you not answer my question? Where is the interest paid to the Federal Reserve Bank?

 

[Albertabound]

The start of the dirty thirties.

Senator Robert L. Owen, Chairman of the Senate Banking and Currency Committee, testified at the Senate Silver Hearings in 1939 that:

"In the early part of 1920, the farmers were exceedingly prosperous. They were paying off the mortgages and buying a lot of new land, at the instance of the Government--had borrowed money to do it--and then they were bankrupted by a sudden contraction of credit and currency which took place in 1920. What took place in 1920 was just the reverse of what should have been taking place. Instead of liquidating the excess of credits created by the war through a period of years, the Federal Reserve Board met in a meeting which was not disclosed to the public. They met on the 18th of May, 1920, and it was a secret meeting. They spent all day conferring; the minutes made sixty printed pages, and they appear in Senate Document 310 of February 19, 1923. The Class A Directors, the Federal Reserve Advisory Council, were present, but the Class B Directors, who represented business, commerce, and agriculture, were not present. The Class C Directors, representing the people of the United States, were not present and were not invited to be present. Only the big bankers were there, and their work of that day resulted in a contraction of credit which had the effect the next year of reducing the national income fifteen billion dollars, throwing millions of people out of employment, and reducing the value of lands and ranches by twenty billion dollars."

 

[Albertabound]

Second, net interest is not 40% of taxes. Its 10%.

I don't know who told you that it is....not me.

%40 of the U.S. debt is held by foreign interests......nothing about net interest.

Once again.......Pay attention and stay with the group !

 

[Albertabound]

The interest paid per hour as of the year 2000.........are you ready......$40,000,000

Oh yeah! No problems here.

http://mwhodges.home.att.net/debt_b.htm

 

[BitWhys]

No, the United States is not bankrupt. The net worth of the United States is around $45,000,000,000,000, which is the value of all assets after the repayment of debt.

The US debt is just under 70% of GDP, it was almost double that size after WWII.

thanks for the link. question from a padawan? why the B.100 and not the L.100?

I got the WWII debt pegged at 121% of GDP at the end of 1946. Mind you, a good quarter of than went away in a matter of three years as taxes were maintained but spending was dropped to almost half what it was during the war effort. It took Canada twice that long to pull the same stunt by way of pretending to reduce spending (they did pretty good, actually, but it was definitely more show than tow) and letting the economy drag us out of it (25% real growth).

The next 25% of the WWII debt reduction (6 years or so) involved a combination of near double digit inflation, raised taxes, wage and price controls and the Korean war effort. Not exactly an easy slog but it did bring it down to about half of what they started with in '46.

There's big differences between then an now. First of all there was the springboard effect from the war effort, which saw the economy settle with a very comfortable boost overall, thank you very much.

I don't know what the NET debt was at the time, but the way the gold panned out, the US certainly came out ahead of the game, so to speak, and eventually pissed it away so seriously Nixon ended up turning the world on it economic head by abandoning the gold standard just in time for the oil crisis.

Then there's always the trade balance to take into account. The debt was paid down from 67% of GDP in 1955 to 33% of GDP in 1974 (ie. whittled at for twenty years after the two big thumps I mentioned) during a time when the US had a trade surplus. Those days are long gone. Its going to be a long haul.

 

[Toro]

Toro, did you ever figure out where all the interest is going from these banks what WE own. I know I've never seen a dividend cheque, and nor has any country. Where is this interest? In the pockets of the private owner that's where.

Again, central banks are owned by the government. Money earned by the central banks are used to fund operations or goes back to the government

 

[Toro]

Where in that whole quote does it say anything about the U.S. debt being held by the US government.

Do you just make Sh*t up or what?

No. You don't even read your own posts. Or just don't understand them.

Whom do we owe this money to?

Federal Reserve and government accounts (40.6%0:

and your little pie chart tells us this how?

Again, read your own posts

Forty percent of our personal federal income taxes goes to pay this interest.

Look at the graph above. The government paid out $247 billion in interest payments. Total tax receipts were $2.416 trillion. That's 10%, not 40%.

We're supposed to believe this grand theory about money and banking you have and you can't even get simple facts straight, such as this one, or who had the first central bank, or who even owns the central banks? This isn't complex stuff such as the velocity of money or the slopes of the IS-LM curves. If you don't even know who owns the central banks, well...

 

[Toro]

thanks for the link. question from a padawan? why the B.100 and not the L.100?

I got the WWII debt pegged at 121% of GDP at the end of 1946. Mind you, a good quarter of than went away in a matter of three years as taxes were maintained but spending was dropped to almost half what it was during the war effort. It took Canada twice that long to pull the same stunt by way of pretending to reduce spending (they did pretty good, actually, but it was definitely more show than tow) and letting the economy drag us out of it (25% real growth).

The next 25% of the WWII debt reduction (6 years or so) involved a combination of near double digit inflation, raised taxes, wage and price controls and the Korean war effort. Not exactly an easy slog but it did bring it down to about half of what they started with in '46.

There's big differences between then an now. First of all there was the springboard effect from the war effort, which saw the economy settle with a very comfortable boost overall, thank you very much.

I don't know what the NET debt was at the time, but the way the gold panned out, the US certainly came out ahead of the game, so to speak, and eventually pissed it away so seriously Nixon ended up turning the world on it economic head by abandoning the gold standard just in time for the oil crisis.

Then there's always the trade balance to take into account. The debt was paid down from 67% of GDP in 1955 to 33% of GDP in 1974 (ie. whittled at for twenty years after the two big thumps I mentioned) during a time when the US had a trade surplus. Those days are long gone. Its going to be a long haul.

Good stuff BW.

 

[Albertabound]

Ok apparently some of us can't stay with the group. This is for the slow ones in the class. No names mentioned.

Look at the graph above. The government paid out $247 billion in interest payments. Total tax receipts were $2.416 trillion. That's 10%, not 40%.

We're supposed to believe this grand theory about money and banking you have and you can't even get simple facts straight, or who had the first central bank, or who even owns the central banks? This isn't complex stuff such as the velocity of money or the slopes of the IS-LM curves. If you don't even know who owns the central banks, well... or who had the first central bank, or who even owns the central banks? This isn't complex stuff such as the velocity of money or the slopes of the IS-LM curves. If you don't even know who owns the central banks, well...

Ok, Toro you said this......ok. Still with us?

Now this is what I said

Originally Posted by Albertabound
Forty percent of our personal federal income taxes goes to pay this interest.

In English this statement of mine states that %40 of , here is the tricky part, OUR PERSONAL federal income taxes goes to pay this interest.... Well, not me, I don't live there....... That means the personal income tax of each individual in America .............%40 of it goes towards the interest. %10 percent of the U.S. budget goes to pay the interest to .........the federal reserve. Do you think they are paying themselves $247 billion, why does it not show up on the receipts. WHY is so hard to figure that out. NOT the amount the government it's self pays. I can't explain it any easier, if you don't get it, let's move on.

or who had the first central bank,

You are for some reason under the impression that I at some point stated who had the first central bank. Not going to augue this, I already have. Find where I stated that in any of my post here, and show me. Other wise, let's move on.

or who even owns the central banks?

If the Government is ....and you admit this, acturally you are quite firm about it.....paying $ 247 billion in interest. You did say that, right! ( Remember Receipts are amounts of money collected and outlays are federal expenses). Take a breather I don't want you to take in too much at once.

So the government is paying 247 billion in net interest..............To whom ....Themselves .....after all, you say the federal reserve is the government. So why does that not show up on the reciept side ......money collectd? Because they never collected it, it was paid to bank, otherwise known as the federal reserve..........Man!
And another thing, do you ever notice that the government always uses net interest, when they should be using gross interest., which is what they are paying.

This isn't complex stuff

Well apparently it is to you !

Again, central banks are owned by the government. Money earned by the central banks are used to fund operations or goes back to the government

fund operations? What the CIA? What the hell are you talking about. Goes back to the government, show me where it goes back, or show me these operations you speak about. Please.


U.S. Federal Receipts and Outlays

This table lists the money flowing into and out of the United States Treasury from 1940 to present. The receipts section lists the various sources and amounts of money collected by the government. The outlays section details federal expenditures.
Fiscal Year 1940 1950 1960 1970 1980 1990 2000 2005 2007* Receipts Billions of U.S. Dollars Total receipts6.539.492.5192.8517.11,032.02,025.22,153.92,415.9Individual income taxes 0.9 15.8 40.7 90.4 244.1 466.9 1,004.5 927.2 1,096.4 Corporate income taxes 1.2 10.4 21.5 32.8 64.6 93.5 207.3 278.3 260.6 Social insurance and retirement taxes 1.8 4.3 14.7 44.4 157.8 380.0 652.9 794.1 884.1 Other 2.7 8.9 15.6 25.2 50.6 91.5 160.6 154.2 174.8 Outlays Billions of U.S. Dollars Total outlays9.542.692.2195.6590.91,253.21,788.82,472.22,770.1National defense 1.7 13.7 48.1 81.7 134.0 299.3 294.5 495.3 527.4 International affairs 0.1 4.7 3.0 4.3 12.7 13.8 17.2 34.6 33.3 Health 0.1 0.3 0.8 5.9 23.2 57.7 154.5 250.6 280.9 Medicare 0 0 0 6.2 32.1 98.1 197.1 298.6 392.0 Income security 1.5 4.1 7.4 15.7 86.6 147.1 253.5 345.8 367.2 Social security 0 0.8 11.6 30.3 118.5 248.6 409.4 523.3 585.9 Net interest payments 0.9 4.8 6.9 14.4 52.5 184.2 223.0 184.0 47.3 Other 5.3 14.2 14.4 37.2 131.0 204.0 239.5 339.9 336.0 *Estimate



Source: Economic Report of the President, 2006.
The chart did not fit please go to this link: http://encarta.msn.com/media_461544509/U_S_Federal_Receipts_and_Outlays.html

We better all hope that is a typo under the interest payments otherwise, ole Georgy boy there, has decided he's doesn't even want to pay the interest anymore.

 

[Albertabound]

Double post

 

[Albertabound]

Business and Finance— Economy—U.S. Economy and the Federal Budget
Receipts and Outlays of the Federal Government, 1789–2007

(in millions of dollars)

YearTotalOn-budget1 ReceiptsOutlaysSurplus or
deficit (–)ReceiptsOutlaysSurplus or
deficit (–)1789–1849$1,160$1,090$70$1,160$1,090$701850–190014,46215,453–99114,46215,453–9911905544567–23544567–231910676694–18676694–181915683746–63683746–6319206,6496,3582916,6496,35829119253,6412,9247173,6412,92471719304,0583,3207384,0583,32073819353,6096,412–2,8033,6096,412–2,80319406,5489,468–2,9205,9989,482–3,484194545,15992,712–47,55343,84992,569–48,720195039,44342,562–3,11937,33642,038–4,702195565,45168,444–2,93360,37064,461–4,091196092,49292,19130181,85181,3415101965116,817118,228–1,411100,094101,699–1,6051970192,807195,649–2,842159,348168,042–8,6941975279,090332,332–53,242216,633271,892–55,2601980517,112590,947–73,835403,903476,618–72,7151985734,088946,423–212,334547,918769,615–221,69819901,032,0941,253,130–221,036750,4391,028,065–277,62619951,351,9321,515,884–163,9521,000,8531,227,220–226,36720002,025,4571,789,216236,2411,544,8731,458,45186,42220011,991,4261,863,190128,2361,483,9071,516,352–32,44520021,853,3952,011,153–157,7581,338,0741,655,491–317,41720031,782,5322,160,117–377,5851,258,6901,797,108–538,41820041,880,2792,293,006–412,7271,345,5341,913,495–567,96120052,153,8592,472,205–318,3461,576,3832,069,994–493,611200622,285,4912,708,677–423,1861,675,5262,277,667–602,141200722,415,8522,770,097–354,2451,773,5332,316,952–543,419


NOTES: 1789–1842: federal fiscal year ended Dec. 31; 1844–1976: June 30; 1977–present: Sept. 30.
1. Excludes the Social Security surplus. For years prior to 1933, on-budget surplus was not calculated separately.
2. Estimated.
Source: The Budget for Fiscal Year 2007.​

Information Please® Database, © 2006 Pearson Education, Inc. All rights reserved.
Sorry another chart that didn't work, here's the link:
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0104753.html


Does everyone see an over all growing trend here. The Deficit/Surplus(-/+) is getting bigger and bigger and deeper and deeper. It's just like a compounding interest account would look if you were only making the interest payment. You just get deeper and deeper because you are always being charged interest, every second of every day. Period.

And you can not come back and say, "Yeah, but look at the reciepts, they're getting bigger also. DOESN'T MATTER ! The debt is still rising faster and faster. This all goes to the bankers (Gangsters)
and believe me, it will crash sooner than you think !

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=+1]"The powers of financial capitalism had a far-reaching plan, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole...Their secret is that they have annexed from governments, monarchies, and republics the power to create the world's money..." [/SIZE][/FONT]​

[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]- Prof. Carroll Quigley, renowned, late Georgetown macro-historian (mentioned by former President Clinton in his first nomination acceptance speech), author of [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, Times, serif]Tragedy & Hope: A History of the World in Our Time [/FONT]

 

[Toro]

Do you think they are paying themselves $247 billion, why does it not show up on the receipts. WHY is so hard to figure that out. NOT the amount the government it's self pays. I can't explain it any easier, if you don't get it, let's move on.

No.

The Fed owns 9% of the US government securities, most of which are short term securities purchased to effect open market operations.

Total US government securities held by the Fed is $779 billion.

http://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/h41/Current/

Total US debt is $8.67 trillion.

Thus, most interest payments do not go to the government and do not go to the Fed.

The reason why the Fed owns government bonds is to effect the supply of money and target the stated Fed funds rate. The demand for money is almost always rising because the nominal economy is almost always rising. Thus, when the demand for balances increases, the Fed supplies this demand by issuing currency and buying bonds from its member banks. Buying bonds decreases the interest rate and selling bonds increases the interest rate. Since the nominal economy is usually expanding, the Fed balance sheet is usually expanding because the Fed is usually buying. So the fed funds rate goes is effected mostly by the rate of the Fed buying bonds.

If the Government is ....and you admit this, acturally you are quite firm about it.....paying $ 247 billion in interest. You did say that, right! ( Remember Receipts are amounts of money collected and outlays are federal expenses). Take a breather I don't want you to take in too much at once.

So the government is paying 247 billion in net interest..............To whom ....Themselves .....after all, you say the federal reserve is the government.

No, only a fraction is held by the government. Most is held by pension funds, banks, mutual funds, central banks, individual savers, etc. That's where most of the interest payments go.

So why does that not show up on the reciept side ......money collectd? Because they never collected it, it was paid to bank, otherwise known as the federal reserve..........Man!
And another thing, do you ever notice that the government always uses net interest, when they should be using gross interest., which is what they are paying.

That's not relevant. The reason why they state "net" interest is for brevity. That entire link is brevity. The actual budget weighs about a pound. Its massive.

The income paid to the regional banks of the federal reserve system is only a fraction of the interest paid. Each bank has its own income statement. I don't believe there is a consolidated I/S published by the board of governors.
I'll demonstrate tomorrow, and I'll answer this question

fund operations? What the CIA? What the hell are you talking about. Goes back to the government, show me where it goes back, or show me these operations you speak about. Please.

It goes to the US Treasury.

But to go back to the original question, no the US is not insolvent.

 

[Albertabound]

That's not relevant.

You tend to say that alot for such a matter.

So I guess you don't see any trend of any sort happening with the U.S. budget from 1789-2007

Brevity ! That's all you have is brevity .....Oh Well, why didn't you say so!

Most is held by pension funds, banks, mutual funds, central banks, individual savers, etc.

held by or collected for?

Each bank has its own income statement. I don't believe there is a consolidated I/S published by the board of governors.
I'll demonstrate tomorrow, and I'll answer this question

Yeah! Good luck with that. You won't get one from the fed that's for sure

It goes to the US Treasury.

Show me that. Don't just tell me.

 

[Albertabound]

Yes back to the topic

Federal Government debt report!

http://mwhodges.home.att.net/debt.htm

 

[Albertabound]

The information is out there.

http://mwhodges.home.att.net/debt.htm

Where does money come from? Where does it go? Who makes it? The money magicians' secrets are unveiled. We get a close look at their mirrors and smoke machines, their pulleys, cogs, and wheels that create the grand illusion called money. A dry and boring subject? Just wait! You'll be hooked in five minutes. Reads like a detective story — which it really is. But it's all true. This book is about the most blatant scam of all history. It's all here: the cause of wars, boom-bust cycles, inflation, depression, prosperity. Creature from Jekyll Island is a "must read." Your world view will definitely change. You'll never trust a politician again — or a banker.

http://realityzone.stores.yahoo.net/creature2.html#testimonials


http://www.financialoutrage.org.uk/returning_the_money_to_the_people.htm

And if you have the time......and you should make the time.

http://www.apfn.org/apfn/reserve.htm

History records that the money changers have used every form of abuse, intrigue, deceit, and violent means possible to maintain their control over governments by controlling money and its issuance. -James Madison

 

[Toro]

You tend to say that alot for such a matter.

For a reason

So I guess you don't see any trend of any sort happening with the U.S. budget from 1789-2007

I am more than aware of the fiscal condition of the United States.

Brevity ! That's all you have is brevity .....Oh Well, why didn't you say so!

No, I have this

You can download a more detailed breakdown into excel

http://www.gpoaccess.gov/usbudget/fy07/fct.html

In Table 25-12, cell A745 has line item "900: Net interest"

It details interest paid and interest received.

You were saying there was some conspiratorial financial sleight-of-hand regarding the reporting of "net interest" when in fact you simply didn't know how or where to look.

held by or collected for?

Held primarily by custodial banks and collected for the owners.

Don't you know that if you hold a bond, you get paid interest?

Yeah! Good luck with that. You won't get one from the fed that's for sure

That's because the regional banks do. I'll do that later.

I've already shown you a balance sheet.

Here are the financial statements of the Bank of Canada

http://www.bankofcanada.ca/en/annual/2004/fin_state.pdf

Net revenue paid to the receiver general of Canada, $1.7 billion.

Show me that. Don't just tell me.

You mean like I previously showen you that the Bank of Canada and the Bank of England are not privately held, and that most of the debt is not held the Fed as you were proclaiming, two items that pretty much demolish your argument?

 

[Curiosity]

LOL Toro

A little exercise in sarcasm being utilized against you? Wouldn't be so bad if it weren't laced with anecdotal unlinked information dripping with insult and challenge, while at the same time demanding you prove your own posts....

Appears you are defending against statements made defiantly to build points on a personal issue.... kinda like the MSM do these days.... I guess it's the new "style" of communication....attacking another's credibility built on bias.

I love a great debate and thought we might grab onto one here, but realized quickly it was a "gonna git ya" rather than "let's compare notes and see where we are going"....

Keeping your cool is obviously your bedrock....good on ya.

 

[I think not]

Well after six pages of posts, the US still exists.