Is Conservative Government Guilty Of War Crimes?

[Francis2004]

I doubt that a Liberal government would have behaved any differently. In trouble? Shoot the messenger.

You doubt, but it is not assured..

In a transparent democracy you cannot shoot the messenger or you lose even more credibility if this proves to be even more damaging then it is proving to already be.. Any persons wanting to expose future political wrong doings would forever be silenced and that is not correct for any political party of any stripes.

In any case, any opposition party should be howling for an inquiry, and had it been the Conservatives they would be going to court for such an inquiry. Why the different attitude in this case..

 

[Francis2004]

No inquiry.....an inquiry would be a disaster. It would give every psycho-nation on earth an excuse to call us a nation of war crminals,,,,,,,,it would undermine our foreign policy........it would smear both the Liberals and the Conservatives........it would serve no useful purpose.

The important thing is to stop the practise of submitting prisoners for torture RIGHT NOW. Correct the problem. No need for navel-gazing and self-flagelation.

Why no inquiry ?

Because it may expose the fact that Canada's past and ruling parties might have dirty hands in a War that we should making sure we keep ourselves clean in..

Canada should be practising what it preaches if it is going to go to War and tell others how to run a country and behave in the World..

 

[Dexter Sinister]

You doubt, but it is not assured..

Agreed, it's not certain, but if Chretien's tenure is any indication...

Why the different attitude in this case..

My attitude's the same as it would have been regardless of who the government was. Somebody's guilty of something, certainly, though who and what isn't clear yet.

But here's what I think right now: We capture soldiers from a society of corrupt mediaeval warlords and hand them over to a society only marginally less awful, what should we expect to happen? Have detainees been tortured? Of course they have. Did the military and political leaders know about it? Of course they did. Are they now pretending they didn't and shooting the messenger instead of telling the truth? Of course they are. Much of the consequences might turn on certain legal niceties, such as, are these detainees enemy combatants or are they terrorists? The argument, if it comes to that, will be that they're not enemy combatants, they're terrorists, so the Geneva conventions don't apply. We (meaning NATO) should have set up our own detention centre from the beginning, not turned detainees over to the Afghans knowing perfectly well how they'd be treated, but having failed to do that then, we should do it now.

 

[Goober]

Liberalman

If you were not such a partisan hack - you would have included the Liberals as well - But then a Hack cannot or does not want honesty - just the spin -

If anyone did not realize that Afghans use torture then they had their heads in the sand - every arm of civilized govt has been broken during the decades of war -


So Hack Man perhaps a little more honesty and a lot less spin in the future.

 

[Goober]

Agreed, it's not certain, but if Chretien's tenure is any indication... My attitude's the same as it would have been regardless of who the government was. Somebody's guilty of something, certainly, though who and what isn't clear yet.

But here's what I think right now: We capture soldiers from a society of corrupt mediaeval warlords and hand them over to a society only marginally less awful, what should we expect to happen? Have detainees been tortured? Of course they have. Did the military and political leaders know about it? Of course they did. Are they now pretending they didn't and shooting the messenger instead of telling the truth? Of course they are. Much of the consequences might turn on certain legal niceties, such as, are these detainees enemy combatants or are they terrorists? The argument, if it comes to that, will be that they're not enemy combatants, they're terrorists, so the Geneva conventions don't apply. We (meaning NATO) should have set up our own detention centre from the beginning, not turned detainees over to the Afghans knowing perfectly well how they'd be treated, but having failed to do that then, we should do it now.

It will not fly - Resources provided by many so called NATO allies fall well short of the mark - Not sure if you recall the story that they had to rent choppers for Afghanistan as no NATO country-countries could provide 6 choppers -

 

[JLM]

I find that one has to get past all the media hype and political rhetoric then let the dust settle a bit before condeming or condoning. :smile:

The media sure has a knack for one thing...........bringing the nut cases out of the woodwork. :lol:

 

[JLM]

A public inquiry will be very appropriate. But as I discussed in another thread, I don’t’ see Harper ever appointing a public inquiry, for any reason whatever. A public inquiry never does any good for the party in power, if anything; it may end up harming the party in power.

So public inquiry may be ruled out, we probably will never know the complete truth (unless some enterprising journalist digs it up, but we are a bit short on Bernsteins and Woodwards here in Canada).

So I am afraid it will probably blow over, with people kept in the dark about the truth, and conservatives probably won’t pay any political price for their crimes (let alone any prison sentences).

Assuming of course that they are guilty.

 

[CDNBear]

The media sure has a knack for one thing...........bringing the nut cases out of the woodwork. :lol:

This is true and should be said again and again, just look at the kneejerk reactionaries and the parroted bleating of those that can't think for themselves in the two threads on this subject.

Not only can they not wrap their heads around the fact that the situation was created by "their team", they can't stop drooling long enough to allow jurisprudence to take place, before they warm up the tar and break open the down pillows.

Sad really...:-?

 

[SirJosephPorter]

I doubt that a Liberal government would have behaved any differently. In trouble? Shoot the messenger.

Possibly. But that doesn’t excuse the behavior of Conservative government. Indeed, that is the point many conservative supporters made during Gomery inquiry, they claimed that Mulroney’s corruption does not condone Liberal corruption.

Of course, now many of them are talking from the other side of their mouth and claiming that Liberals are as much (if not more) culpable than Conservatives.

Indeed, many of them who were clamouring for a public inquiry when Liberals were in power now seem to be adamantly opposed to one, because they know it may reflect poorly on their party and their Messiah (Harper).

Personally I would welcome a public inquiry, but I don’t think it will happen, Harper is not the type to order a public inquiry (Martin was).

The point is, Conservatives are in power, and they bear the total responsibility for what is happening. Whether Liberals would have done this or that is irrelevant.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Assuming of course that they are guilty.

That is something we will never know, JLM. Conservatives will sit on it, will hush it up and probably they will succeed.

If you look at Mulroney or Chrétien/Martin, they were able to hush up many scandals successfully before people turned against them. So I don’t think this one scandal will turn Canadians against conservatives.

It is in the political interest of conservatives to hush this up, sit on it and hope that it will blow away (though perhaps not in the interest of Canada). That is what they probably will do.

 

[Liberalman]

Liberalman

If you were not such a partisan hack - you would have included the Liberals as well - But then a Hack cannot or does not want honesty - just the spin -

If anyone did not realize that Afghans use torture then they had their heads in the sand - every arm of civilized govt has been broken during the decades of war -


So Hack Man perhaps a little more honesty and a lot less spin in the future.

The Conservatives ran on transparency and accountability had they have followed it then they would not be in this mess but all you have to look at is all the promises they broke while they governed this great country.

Had this been the Conservatives only mistake then this would not been an issue but it isn’t.

The support for the Conservatives is crumbling in Alberta where an NDP won a seat in Edmonton.

The Progressive Conservative wing of the Conservative party is not happy on the way the Reformers have run this party and I would not be surprised if Peter MacKay pulls the PC’s out of the Conservative party and go at it on their own because the Reformers or Canadian Alliance never kept their promises.

If the Conservatives have nothing to hide and they want to live up to their transparency and accountability promise then they have to have the public inquiry into this fiasco and prove to the Canadian people that they are innocent if they decide to sweep it under the rug then they will lose the next election and the possibility of half their membership.

 

[earth_as_one]

I don't see the point of voting for the Liberals over the conservatives on this point. Inatieff is also pro-Torture:

If torture works…
Michael Ignatieff
23rd April 2006
If torture works… « Prospect Magazine

Both Harper and Ignatieff have similar viewpoints regarding tortore.

Jack Layton:

Jack Layton's speech on Afghanistan
12 Mar 2007

....The government has also weakened Canada’s long standing position against the use of torture with our “no questions asked” policy of handing detainees over to the Afghan security forces. These are forces who are widely accused of torture, abuse, and violations of international law...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vg4yrUCwzRA[/quote]

 

[Liberalman]

I don't see the point of voting for the Liberals over the conservatives on this point. Inatieff is also pro-Torture:
Both Harper and Ignatieff have similar viewpoints regarding tortore.

The war crime deals with the government's involvement of the torture, which in this case is the Conservative government and Prime Minister Harper who is the leader will have to stand trial at The Hague.

You can claim that Iggy belief is the same as Harper but the fact is that the government knew about the tortures a full year before they acted which means our military handed over innocent Afghan detainees for torture which is against the Geneva convention.

Now if you want to support a Conservative government that doesn't care about human life then that's your choice but most Canadians won't, not even the ultra Christians in Conservative vote rich prairie provinces

 

[earth_as_one]

If Iggy was in power, he probably would have pushed to legalize torture. Then we would have had Canadians torturing people.

I support Layton's viewpoint regarding torture.

 

[pgs]

The war crime deals with the government's involvement of the torture, which in this case is the Conservative government and Prime Minister Harper who is the leader will have to stand trial at The Hague.

You can claim that Iggy belief is the same as Harper but the fact is that the government knew about the tortures a full year before they acted which means our military handed over innocent Afghan detainees for torture which is against the Geneva convention.

Now if you want to support a Conservative government that doesn't care about human life then that's your choice but most Canadians won't, not even the ultra Christians in Conservative vote rich prairie provinces

So just how did your beloved liberals do in the recent round of by elections?

 

[Liberalman]

So just how did your beloved liberals do in the recent round of by elections?

The big question is how the Conservatives will do after the next election after the public inquiry

 

[JLM]

If Iggy was in power, he probably would have pushed to legalize torture. Then we would have had Canadians torturing people.

I support Layton's viewpoint regarding torture.

Although I'm not much of a fan of Ignatieff, I think the above would come under the heading of "Extreme Thinking".

 

[Liberalman]

If Iggy was in power, he probably would have pushed to legalize torture. Then we would have had Canadians torturing people.

I support Layton's viewpoint regarding torture.

The war mongering Layton who voted with the government to extend the mission from 2009 to 2011.

Just think of all the Canadian soldiers that could have not died if Layton voted the other way.

 

[pgs]

The war mongering Layton who voted with the government to extend the mission from 2009 to 2011.

Just think of all the Canadian soldiers that could have not died if Layton voted the other way.

Just think os all the Canadian soldiers who would not have died,if your beloved liberals had not sent us there in the first place.
Let us start at the beginning if we are to cast stones.

 

[JLM]

"Just think of all the Canadian soldiers that could have not died if Layton voted the other way."- Which has NOTHING to do with anything.