Is a fetus a Human being?

[SirJosephPorter]

Liar.

CNSNews.com - Obama Signs Law Banning Federal Embryo Research Two Days After Signing Executive Order to OK It

OK Anna, so from that you can see that nobody banned the research, they only banned federal funding for it.

And Obama signed that because it was part of a larger bill. But he got around that, since then federal funding for embryonic stem cell research has been restored. NIH has already drawn up guidelines for funding the embryonic stem cell research.

New Rules Expand Federal Funding of Stem-Cell Research - Yahoo! News

This was just last month.

 

[Machjo]

You may be an exception, Machjo. But do you remember the debate when Bush invaded Iraq and Chrétien decided to stay out of it? Harper publicly said that he supported the Iraq war and scolded Chrétien for not participating.

Harper is a warmonger. And I wish Chretien would have had the backbone to say that Canada would support a UN-led mission, like in the Balkans in the -90s. Nothing more, nothing less. He capitulated.

The conservative position at that time was to enthusiastically support Iraq war. Seeing how much of a disaster it turned out to be, they may have changed their position by now, I don’t’ know.

No, not the conservative position, but Harper's position.

Also, in USA religious right (which wants to outlaw all abortions) enthusiastically supported the Iraq war, and still does. No doubt there may be a few (like yourself) who oppose abortion because they abhor violence, are against war, against death penalty etc. But a great majority of conservatives want to ban abortion and they just love was, love the death penalty, love violence of any kind (e.g. many of them are gun enthusiasts). But obliviously there are exceptions to any rule.

That's big R republicans.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

No, not the conservative position, but Harper's position.

You cant’ be serious, Machjo. Isn’t Harper the leader of the Conservative Party? Incidentally, I did support the Afghanistan was, still do (though it is time to start considering pulling out).

Anyway, that is enough fun, it is time to sign off.

 

[Machjo]

And SJP, the points you brought up about warmongering are one reason the conservative right in Canada would be much better served by a co-alition of independent candidates in elections, and independent MPs in Parliament, perhaps simply attending a caucus of the House, open to all MPs. Right now, the right has become way too partisan, monopolized by the CPC.

Then again, we could say the same of the left to a lesser degree (I say lesser degree because at least the left has a few viable parties to choose from).

Usually, any real threat to the CPC on the right comes not from other parties, but from independent MPs such as Arthur from Quebec.

 

[AnnaG]

Upon further consideration, Porter's ignorant and stubborn refusal to admit the evidence from experts plus the baiting and calling me a liar by morgan all within two weeks is enough. I am out. Goodbye.

 

[Machjo]

No, not the conservative position, but Harper's position.

You cant’ be serious, Machjo. Isn’t Harper the leader of the Conservative Party? Incidentally, I did support the Afghanistan was, still do (though it is time to start considering pulling out).

Anyway, that is enough fun, it is time to sign off.

Then you could say the CPCs position, but small-c conservatives are not all CPC members. And as I've mentioned before, though the majority of CPC members are likely warmongers, not all members are. Though the MP for my riding is one CPC member I'd never vote for (the guy's a party sheep), that's not to say I wouldn't vote for a CPC candidate if he proved to have a heart and brain.

 

[Machjo]

Then again, Conservatives (as opposed to conservatives) would certainly see independents as a threat to the power of the CPC to impose a more militarist agenda.

 

[lone wolf]

Upon further consideration, Porter's ignorant and stubborn refusal to admit the evidence from experts plus the baiting and calling me a liar by morgan all within two weeks is enough. I am out. Goodbye.

Don't let Porter chase you away. That's just the mental calibre of the breed. Personally, I think it's time Porter and his kind faced some music....

 

[JLM]

Upon further consideration, Porter's ignorant and stubborn refusal to admit the evidence from experts plus the baiting and calling me a liar by morgan all within two weeks is enough. I am out. Goodbye.

Hang in there Anna, I don't always agree with these two guys either and I know your opinion is every bit as good as theirs. You gotta roll with the punches. . It's like I said the other day, when the "destination" is already picked out it diminishes the flexibility of the "route".

 

[Dexter Sinister]

No a fetus is not a human being.

What is it then? And how would you define what *IS* a human being, and at what point the crossover from fetus to human occurs? You can't draw lines like that without talking about behavioral and cognitive abilities, and once you start accepting that, you can also start accepting similar arguments about the non-humanity of people with assorted disabilities who don't meet those criteria. Any criteria but basic biology are pretty dangerous. I don't think we want to go down that road.

 

[gerryh]

Upon further consideration, Porter's ignorant and stubborn refusal to admit the evidence from experts plus the baiting and calling me a liar by morgan all within two weeks is enough. I am out. Goodbye.

ROFLMAO..... ya know...I WAS starting to like you....but this statement..simply unbelievable.......

"Waaaahhhhhh..... since he won't agree with me no matter what I say or do....I'm taking my ball and going home....waaaaahhhhhhh........:roll:"

So, not only do you threaten to leave when your feelings have been hurt, you threaten to leave when you can't convince someone to see things your way.

Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out.

 

[Machjo]

ROFLMAO..... ya know...I WAS starting to like you....but this statement..simply unbelievable.......

"Waaaahhhhhh..... since he won't agree with me no matter what I say or do....I'm taking my ball and going home....waaaaahhhhhhh........:roll:"

So, not only do you threaten to leave when your feelings have been hurt, you threaten to leave when you can't convince someone to see things your way.

Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out.

You really do have the subtlety of a tank, don't you.

 

[Ron in Regina]

What is it then? And how would you define what *IS* a human being, and at what point the crossover from fetus to human occurs? You can't draw lines like that without talking about behavioral and cognitive abilities, and once you start accepting that, you can also start accepting similar arguments about the non-humanity of people with assorted disabilities who don't meet those criteria. Any criteria but basic biology are pretty dangerous. I don't think we want to go down that road.

Even basic biology might have some issues here, wouldn't it? Expanding
on what you've brought up Dexter, and looking at chromosome counts....

Normally Humans having 46 (a set of 23 matched pairs contributed from
each parent) but not always, and that ties into the assorted disabilities
that you have mentioned (Down Syndrome, Edwards, etc...).

Basic biology (depending on ones bias & personal agenda) can lead to
the argument for Eugenics by claiming that somehow a person without
a chromosome count of 46 is somehow not human. A can of worms...

I'd hate to see that come into play on an debate on abortion, if it hasn't
already. You make a very valid point though.

 

[ironsides]

Upon further consideration, Porter's ignorant and stubborn refusal to admit the evidence from experts plus the baiting and calling me a liar by morgan all within two weeks is enough. I am out. Goodbye.

Stay with us AnnaG, there are some who will never change their minds.

 

[ironsides]

No a fetus is not a human being. It simply has the potential to become one. This is just something religious fanatics came up with to try to keep abortion and if they had their way birth control out of a woman's control and provided at the whim of a male preacher. It is called control or denial of basic rights to about half of our population.

Ok, I'll accept your answer if you can prove to me scientifically that a fetus is not a human being. Never mind anybody's rights, religion or political affiliation those are in question.

 

[Kreskin]

Ironside, lets say it 100% is. Now what?

 

[lone wolf]

...I'd have to say: "Now how in Hell'd that get there???"

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Upon further consideration, Porter's ignorant and stubborn refusal to admit the evidence from experts plus the baiting and calling me a liar by morgan all within two weeks is enough. I am out. Goodbye.

Are you serious, Anna? You are leaving the forum because you failed to convince me of your point of view? It is of course up to you whether to stay or to leave. But if you are leaving because you failed to convince me, I think you are leaving for entirely the wrong reason.

Perhaps you had some wrong expectations about the forum. The forum hardly changes anybody’s mind, at the end of the discussion, we can hope to part as friends, nothing more.

Just as you did not convince me of your viewpoint, I did not convince you of mine. So should I also get angry, bitter, frustrated, take all my marbles and go home? That seems to be a very strange attitude.

In short, if you leave the forum because you failed to convince me of your viewpoint, you are giving me entirely too much importance, I am not that important.

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Ok, I'll accept your answer if you can prove to me scientifically that a fetus is not a human being. Never mind anybody's rights, religion or political affiliation those are in question.

And why should he do that? The burden of proof is upon those who claim that fetus is a human being. Currently accepted view is that it is not a human being, that is why abortion is legal in most countries in the world.

If you want to change the status quo, it is up to you to prove your case. You go ahead and prove that fetus is a human being. You haven’t done that, several of you have been making that argument here, but I doubt if you have convinced anybody (certainly you haven’t convinced me).

So taxslave doesn’t have to do anything, those who claim that fetus is a human being since conception, they have to prove their case, convince the scientific community, who will then transmit their findings to us mortals (in the form of briefing, press release by AMA, CMA, GMC, articles in JAMA, Nature etc.). Then I will be convinced (and I suspect so will most people).

 

[SirJosephPorter]

Hang in there Anna, I don't always agree with these two guys either and I know your opinion is every bit as good as theirs. You gotta roll with the punches. . It's like I said the other day, when the "destination" is already picked out it diminishes the flexibility of the "route".

You said it, JLM. We lock horns many times, we are on opposite sides of an issue many times and we never convince each other of our point of view. Yet neither of us gets angry or frustrated at the end.