Immanuel Velikovsky, scientist or twit?

[petros]

Earth's Rotation - Core, Inner, Time, Crust, Move, and Orbit is where I quote the inner core rotation differences. and this one from caltech although it's not dated the most recent reference listed in citations was 2002. http://www.gps.caltech.edu/~dla/Commentary-doc2.pdf

Or give seismic ansiotropy a whirl.

I don't think the electric universe thing has anything to recommend it at this point, there's no plausible mechanism and the consequences we can calculate from its claims are strongly at variance with direct observations.

I still want to know how the heck you get electomagnetic energy without any electricity. They are like good and evil, light and dark, salt and pepper, ketchup and mustard. It is impossible to have one without the other.

There is no shortage of excited and dancing electrons in the solar mass chucked our way from time to time. Sometimes it's is pretty lights in the night sky other times it is buildings burned down from electron overload.

Has modern man seen the sun at it's most furious?

Now that we know our own star has a tail like a comet and it's orbit around our part of the galaxy is a wave like a merry go round, sooner or later the ecliptic and all the planets will be in that tail of our sun. That can't be happy times for the Earth's magnetic field as it tries to protect us.

There is no bliss and harmony in our solar system. We have one planet blown to bits another tipped on it's side, another that rotates backwards, an Oort cloud that likes to start dirty snowball fights at whim and to top it all off the center of our galaxy blows it's cork from time to time and outshines every damn star in our galaxy. That might just melt a few giant ice cubes and barbeque some oversized iguanas or even hurl interplanetary lightning bolts.

I have no doubts amazing things have been witnessed in the solar system by man. We do have a lot of ancient references in petroglyphs from one end of the globe to the other that are eerily very very similar to plasma discharges in a lab. Whether Africa, Australia South America or North America they all saw the same thing in the sky.

It's not exactly Nature but it was their way of publishing. Something bombarded north America killing the large beasts, vast vegetation and melted a ****load of ice in a half of a blink of geological time and there is still no proven causation for it.

We do lack tangible evidence and measurements but at the same time maybe it's just really hard to measure electric current when it's something in such abundance. Look at the lengths gone to prove dark matter in the deep SNOlab. Perhaps the electric universe is as elusive to measuement as dark matter is?

If there's a charge separation large enough to produce an electric arc between planets, it would also be large enough to completely derange the orbits, electromagnetic forces are 36 orders of magnitude stronger than gravity. There's no evidence that's ever happened, things seem to be pretty stable. As for the elements in the sun, it's at least a second generation star and so contains traces of heavier elements than hydrogen and helium. I don't know offhand what the amounts are, I'll see what I can find out.

Have you ever heard of Viktor Shauberger and his observations and theories on electric or "living" water? He uncovered some amazing things about vortices in nature. He devised a big copper contraption that at alleged electrically charges water by making the water spin in a clockwise direction against the natural coriolis effect.

Many of his designs are still in use today when it comes to water flow management. Apparently he even came up with a design for a super efficient UFO, energized water that has in test proven to enhance crops, make "spring water" for urban use, copper coated plows that have also proven to make for vigourous crop growth.

Far out..cruising through his patents I found a design for a plow "knife" used today on zero till air drills. Fig 5

[SIZE=+1]Austrian Patent #166,644[/SIZE]
(August 25, 1950)
[SIZE=+1]Plow[/SIZE]
by
Viktor Schauberger
It resulted from numerous experiments that a better plowing of the soil can be achieved with copper-covered plows instead of using plows made of iron or steel. This difference becomes stronger when one notices that the speed of plowing becomes faster and that the friction between the ground and the corresponding portion of the plow is greater.
This effect of greater speed produces the slow disintegration of the copper cover, and the minute copper particles deposited in the soil produces a catalytic effect that in turn generates better water retention in the ground and also a further increase in the quality of plowing.

These findings were made when passing a plow which body was either covered or entirely made of copper.
But as the building in whole of the plow with copper is disadvantageous, it will be convenient to cover those portions with copper layers in hardened condition, which can be made through several different methods. The deposit of copper particles under the ground does not break the magnetic permeability of the soil, as does iron or steel.
Two embodiments are shown in the illustrations. Figures 1 and 2 show a lateral view and Figures 3 and 5 show a transverse cut, a longitudinal cut, and one plowing protrusion.

In Figures 1 and 2 is illustrated a plow with point (1) made of steel as usual, but it can also be covered with the corresponding copper cover; this portion cuts through the ground, generating friction in the process; another is in the smaller portion (2), upon which upper portion there is usually a small heap of sol because of pressure when the plow moves forward. It will be furnished with an endtail (3), also made of copper, that will create a "screwing" motion in the soil by means of sunk "screw" (4) located at portion (2). In order to make the whole of this latter portion hard enough, it must be hammered during construction.

The plowing protrusion (5), corresponding to Figure 3 to 5, is made with a backward open sheet (6) of copper; to fasten upon the protrusion the usual arrow, we use lock (7) of protrusion (5) placed at a high location and which is furnished with the corresponding key; here it is also convenient to place the copper cover by hammering upon the protrusion.
Figures 1-5

Shauberger is some really bizarre stuff that actually has basis in reality.

Ever wonder how a trout can sit motionless in a fast flowing stream and suddenly dart up stream with just a couple flicks of the tail? Viktor can tell you.

Viktor Schauberger - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[darkbeaver]

The memory of water | hydrogen2oxygen

 

[JLM]

Immanuel Velikovski, a Russian born psychiatrist, proposed a series of unlikely astronomical events, not the least of which was the ejection of the planet Venus from Jupiter. Now Jupiter has an escape velocity of 59.5 km/sec so the energy needed to spit out Venus would likely have blown the planet to bits but the story gets better. Venus, according to Velikovski, had several close encounters with Earth before settling into it's now near circular orbit.



Immanuel Velikovsky

What Carl Sagan has to say about Velikovsky

I guess scientists are probably the only ones who would really care, I'm hesitant about calling him a twit, but I'm probably not going to delve into the subject too deeply. We're here - that's the main thing! :smile:

 

[#juan]

I guess scientists are probably the only ones who would really care, I'm hesitant about calling him a twit, but I'm probably not going to delve into the subject too deeply. We're here - that's the main thing! :smile:

JLM, Velikovsky was a psychiatrist. He had no visible qualifications in the fields he has invaded. Venus did not pop out of Jupiter and wander around, colliding with Mars and Earth before taking up it's near perfect orbit that it still has today. Velikovsky wrote a number of sensationalist books proclaiming all of this preposterous nonsense that never happened. Among this load of garbage, Velikovsky has stated a few things that turn out to be correct, not because of any scientific effort on his part, but simply guesswork gleaned from the work of others, in fields he had no credentials to be in.

 

[darkbeaver]

JLM, Velikovsky was a psychiatrist. He had no visible qualifications in the fields he has invaded. Venus did not pop out of Jupiter and wander around, colliding with Mars and Earth before taking up it's near perfect orbit that it still has today. Velikovsky wrote a number of sensationalist books proclaiming all of this preposterous nonsense that never happened. Among this load of garbage, Velikovsky has stated a few things that turn out to be correct, not because of any scientific effort on his part, but simply guesswork gleaned from the work of others, in fields he had no credentials to be in.

If humanity waited for accredited blessings before practical application of ideas the species would have stalled long before fire was applied to sharpened sticks. Credentials means nothing to hammers and nails. Credentials you get by bringing home the rabbits, fancy scribblings and crayon facsimiles make very thin stews in the real world. The prime question of all ages remains, "where is the beef"? You have implied that Velikovskiys lucky guessing was more effective than the paper carrying establishment. I don't think that was true. Velikovskys waves still pound the doors of scientific authority and that is amply confirmed by the fear and hate still inspired by the long dead great thinker.
Where did Venus come from and why is it still a volcanic hell? Keep in mind that the greenhouse nonsense has been falsified.

 

[#juan]

If humanity waited for accredited blessings before practical application of ideas the species would have stalled long before fire was applied to sharpened sticks. Credentials means nothing to hammers and nails. Credentials you get by bringing home the rabbits, fancy scribblings and crayon facsimiles make very thin stews in the real world. The prime question of all ages remains, "where is the beef"? You have implied that Velikovskiys lucky guessing was more effective than the paper carrying establishment. I don't think that was true. Velikovskys waves still pound the doors of scientific authority and that is amply confirmed by the fear and hate still directed and the long dead great thinker.
Where did Venus come from and why is it still a volcanic hell? Keep in mind that the greenhouse nonsense has been falsified.

No. You missed the point. If I wanted to find out about history or conditions of various planets in the Solar System, I would ask
a qualified scientist not a raving psychiatrist from Russia.

darkbeaver it is amazing that in this day and age, that you can be convinced that Venus has popped out of Jupiter and collided with
Earth and several other planets. That alone would get you a good seat at the funny farm.

 

[JLM]

JLM, Velikovsky was a psychiatrist. He had no visible qualifications in the fields he has invaded. Venus did not pop out of Jupiter and wander around, colliding with Mars and Earth before taking up it's near perfect orbit that it still has today. Velikovsky wrote a number of sensationalist books proclaiming all of this preposterous nonsense that never happened. Among this load of garbage, Velikovsky has stated a few things that turn out to be correct, not because of any scientific effort on his part, but simply guesswork gleaned from the work of others, in fields he had no credentials to be in.

I hear you, now I'm better informed. :smile:

 

[darkbeaver]

No. You missed the point. If I wanted to find out about history or conditions of various planets in the Solar System, I would ask
a qualified scientist not a raving psychiatrist from Russia.

darkbeaver it is amazing that in this day and age, that you can be convinced that Venus has popped out of Jupiter and collided with
Earth and several other planets. That alone would get you a good seat at the funny farm.

This age that we live in has seen the corruption of every institution. Many scientists are qualified by the consensus of the similarly guilty authority. Their entire existence is funded by the money. In this long war for the control of information the power of science has been purchased by that money and not by merit.
Funny you should say that Juan. Since public execution by fire is no longer considered socially acceptable authority has incarcerated many dissidents of all orders in those same institutions you mention. Venus is still a half molten ball and it is a fact that the ancients witnessed the conflagrations in the sky.

 

[Cliffy]

I hear you, now I'm better informed. :smile:

Actually, that may not be accurate. Think about all the major screw ups that have been caused by "credentials". The atomic bomb, our devastated forests, global warming (from either side's point of view), thousands of people dying every year from pharmaceutical drugs.... Most of the great inventions of the last few centuries were made by ordinary people whose minds were not hermetically sealed in the box of some specialized training in science. The various sciences create tunnel vision in their own fields. Sometimes (if not most) it takes someone who can think outside the box to see the obvious. I don't know much about the topic at hand or if Velinkovsky was right or wrong, but to rely entirely on the opinions of those who are stuck in a box for your world view seems a little self defeating at best.

 

[darkbeaver]

http://www.gps.caltech.edu/~dla/Commentary-doc2.pdf
The long-standing controversy regarding
a drawn out (100 million years) versus a
rapid (~ 1 Myr) terrestrial accretion appears
to be resolving itself in favor of the shorter
time scales and a high-temperature origin.
Geophysical data require rapid accretion of
Earth and early formation of the core (10).
Until recently this has been at odds with
accretional theory and isotopic data but now
these disciplines are also favoring a
contracted time scale. A variety of isotopes
have confirmed short time intervals between <<<<<<<
the formation of the solar system and
planetary differentiation processes (11-14).
This has bearing on the age of the inner core
and its cooling history

(That was an interesting read Petros. I extracted that paragraph because it seems pertinent to the age of earth question and the damn stupid accretion models. What do you think?)

]http://terra.rice.edu/department/faculty/niu/ESCI446/slides/05-Anisotropy.pdf


nice graphics at that link

file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/Owner/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/moz-screenshot-1.png

Probe to survey comet dented by Deep Impact mission

• 22:57 19 January 2011 by David Shiga
• For similar stories, visit the Solar System and Comets and Asteroids Topic Guides

NASA's Deep Impact mission pounded a comet in 2005, but failed to see the resulting crater. Now, scientists will get a second chance to glimpse the damage when a second spacecraft flies by the comet on 15 February.
In an unprecedented experiment, NASA smashed a 372-kilogram impactor into Comet Tempel 1 on 4 July 2005 as part of its Deep Impact mission.
A flyby spacecraft recorded images of the impact from a safe distance, but the cloud of impact debris and a flawed camera made it impossible to see the crater itself. Studying the crater could have revealed more about the interior composition and structure of comets.
Now, another spacecraft is about to make its own fly-by of the comet, offering a second chance to image the structure.
Called Stardust, the spacecraft collected material from Comet Wild 2 in 2004 and sent it in a capsule back to Earth, where scientists have been studying it ever since.
Lucky sighting

Since the Stardust spacecraft was still in good health after its mission to Wild 2, NASA decided in 2007 to send it to Tempel 1 as a follow-up to the Deep Impact mission.
At 0437 GMT on 15 February (2037 PST on 14 February), the Stardust spacecraft will complete its long journey to Tempel 1, flying within 200 kilometres of the comet's solid core, or nucleus.
In a press briefing on Wednesday, the mission team sought to dampen expectations for imaging the crater itself, which might be inconveniently located on the wrong side of the comet during the spacecraft's brief encounter.
The comet is slowly rotating once every 41 hours and scientists do not have enough information to guarantee that the side with the Deep Impact crater will be in view at the time of the fly-by.
"I hope we get to see the impact crater, but that's going to be a bonus," said Pete Schultz of Brown University in Providence, Rhode Island.
Then and now

Team members said much would be learned from the fly-by even if the crater remains elusive.
For example, scientists will look for changes since the Deep Impact spacecraft's visit in 2005 that may be unrelated to the collision. Comets are constantly shedding gas and dust, which may have caused noticeable changes to Tempel 1's nucleus.
"We know that comets lose material, but the question is, how much does the surface change and where does the surface change?" said Joe Veverka of Cornell University in Ithaca, New York, the chief scientist for Stardust's mission to Tempel 1. "We'll be able to answer that question by comparing our images with those taken by Deep Impact in 2005."
Like the Stardust spacecraft, the Deep Impact spacecraft was also sent to visit a second comet. It flew by Comet Hartley 2 on 4 November, where it saw basketball-sized snowballs shed by the comet.

graphics we own the copyright to.

 

[#juan]

Actually, that may not be accurate. Think about all the major screw ups that have been caused by "credentials". The atomic bomb, our devastated forests, global warming (from either side's point of view), thousands of people dying every year from pharmaceutical drugs.... Most of the great inventions of the last few centuries were made by ordinary people whose minds were not hermetically sealed in the box of some specialized training in science. The various sciences create tunnel vision in their own fields. Sometimes (if not most) it takes someone who can think outside the box to see the obvious. I don't know much about the topic at hand or if Velinkovsky was right or wrong, but to rely entirely on the opinions of those who are stuck in a box for your world view seems a little self defeating at best.

The major "screw-ups" in the world today are the result of overpopulation and greed that science has been warning us about for many decades. The great scientists were not "hermetically" sealed, but blessed with a working knowledge of other fields. I have said on this topic that I am not a physicist but how much physics does it take to see that a collision of two planets would kill everyone on both. Since we are still alive, the collisions Velokovsky ranted about obviously didn't happen. Carl Sagan and Isaaic Asimov were two scientists of many who opposed Velikovsky's nonsense and they were certainly not "stuck in a box". Both wrote widely in other fields. I think you will find that the "ordinary" inventors were not ordinary at all but special people who rose to the top of the crowd.

 

[darkbeaver]

I can't wait for the results of Stardusts float by Temple 1 At 0437 GMT on 15 February (2037 PST on 14 February),

Will we see the insane "giant dirty snowball" idea put to rest or will the lunatic Astrophysical Asylum Choir be required to write a new patch for their leaking dingy.

 

[JLM]

His two main sources gleaned from Google...................."His books use comparative mythology and ancient literary sources (including the Bible) to argue that Earth has suffered catastrophic close-contacts with other planets (principally Venus and Mars) in ancient times"

I have to conclude he could be suspect. :smile:

 

[petros]

JLM, Velikovsky was a psychiatrist. He had no visible qualifications in the fields he has invaded. Venus did not pop out of Jupiter and wander around, colliding with Mars and Earth before taking up it's near perfect orbit that it still has today. Velikovsky wrote a number of sensationalist books proclaiming all of this preposterous nonsense that never happened. Among this load of garbage, Velikovsky has stated a few things that turn out to be correct, not because of any scientific effort on his part, but simply guesswork gleaned from the work of others, in fields he had no credentials to be in.

have said on this topic that I am not a physicist but how much physics does it take to see that a collision of two planets would kill everyone on both. Since we are still alive, the collisions Velokovsky ranted about obviously didn't happen.

You make Velikovsky to be some sort of David Suzuki. Who other than yourself, who claimed the Earth was involved? What ended the last ice age in a big hurry and killed the great beasts of the very recent past? How is that Big Bang Theory holding up these days? How did we gain a moon? Is water a mineral?

 

[darkbeaver]

The Fantastic Mystery of the Younger Dryas : Greg Laden's Blog
The latest study is from Science, and is a follow up on criticism leveled at an earlier paper published in PNAS. From the Science paper:

We report abundant nanodiamonds in sediments dating to 12.9 ... thousand calendar years before the present at multiple locations across North America. [there are two types of ] diamond ... in this boundary layer but not above or below that interval. Cubic diamonds form under high temperature-pressure regimes, and n-diamonds also require extraordinary conditions, well outside the range of Earth's typical surficial processes but common to cosmic impacts. .... These diamonds provide strong evidence for Earth's collision with a rare swarm of carbonaceous chondrites or comets at the onset of the Younger Dryas cool interval, producing multiple airbursts and possible surface impacts, with severe repercussions for plants, animals, and humans in North America.​

This study is reviewed in a recent blog post at Real Climate
I venture to guess that this impact theory will pan out and be demonstrated as very likely. All of this must be understood in the context of Milankovitch Cycles, of course. These are the orbital cycles that more or less (more more than less, as a matter of fact) map onto the comings and goings of ice ages over the last two million years. Within the context of these orbital geometric cycles, events such as running into a herd of comets or great fresh water inland seas catastrophically dumping into the ocean or sudden metastable changes in air currents could turn on, or off, a particular climate pattern.
We have not seen the end of this discussion, no doubt.

D. J. Kennett, J. P. Kennett, A. West, C. Mercer, S. S. Q. Hee, L. Bement, T. E. Bunch, M. Sellers, W. S. Wolbach (2009). Nanodiamonds in the Younger Dryas Boundary Sediment Layer Science, 323 (5910), 94-94 DOI: 10.1126/science.1162819




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The Fantastic Mystery of the Younger Dryas

The event that happened 12.4 thousand years ago burned N America to the ground ans then a continental tusnami swept the continent from east to west depositing the bodies of animal and tree alike in the eastern sloops of western Canada and the Yukon where the bodies sometimes a hundred feet deep can still be excavated from the perma frost and what have we heard about it, SFA.

 

[petros]

During the Younger Dryas is when ancient man was painting the center of our galaxy as Seyfert. Some cultures even called it the "eye of God". But hey, what do they know? They weren't scientists, they were just event witnesses.

 

[darkbeaver]

http://georgehoward.net/Haynes%20%282008%29_PNAS_YD.pdf

During the Younger Dryas is when ancient man was painting the center of our galaxy as Seyfert. Some cultures even called it the "eye of God". But hey, what do they know? They weren't scientists, they were just event witnesses.

Scientists made the paint though.

and we know there was a great big flood

which of course is just a myth with billions (literally) of tons of bodies still laying arround for examination, but what do we hear,SFA.

 

[petros]

http://georgehoward.net/Haynes (2008)_PNAS_YD.pdf



Scientists made the paint though.

and we know there was a great big flood

which of course is just a myth with billions (literally) of tons of bodies still laying arround for examination, but what do we hear,SFA.

Sphaerosiderite

This should go in AGW thread too....

NASA – December 23, 2009: The solar system is passing through an interstellar cloud that physics says should not exist. In the Dec. 24th issue of Nature, a team of scientists reveal how NASA’s Voyager spacecraft have solved the mystery.
The discovery has implications for the future when the solar system will eventually bump into other, similar clouds in our arm of the Milky Way galaxy.

Astronomers call the cloud we’re running into now the Local Interstellar Cloud or “Local Fluff” for short. It’s about 30 light years wide and contains a wispy mixture of hydrogen and helium atoms at a temperature of 6000 C. The existential mystery of the Fluff has to do with its surroundings. About 10 million years ago, a cluster of supernovas exploded nearby, creating a giant bubble of million-degree gas. The Fluff is completely surrounded by this high-pressure supernova exhaust and should be crushed or dispersed by it.

“The observed temperature and density of the local cloud do not provide enough pressure to resist the ‘crushing action’ of the hot gas around it,” says Opher.

So how does the Fluff survive? The Voyagers have found an answer.
“Voyager data show that the Fluff is much more strongly magnetized than anyone had previously suspected—between 4 and 5 microgauss*,” says Opher. “This magnetic field can provide the extra pressure required to resist destruction.”
“There could be interesting times ahead!” says Opher.

 

[darkbeaver]

Sphaerosiderite could that be the dust that we think is cooling the upper atmosphere?

 

[petros]

Sphaerosiderite could that be the dust that we think is cooling the upper atmosphere?

I'll let Yakko answer that one.

YouTube - Yakko's Universe Song