If now you see a miracle, will you believe?

[eanassir]

Well now that you have been here for a while and seen how Christians apply their religion to benifit all mankind, you should go back to your barbarian country and teach the barbarians how to apply the Muslim religion to benifit mankind as well.
Your type had done a lot of damage to us and we're getting tired of always helping you and solving your problems.
You imply muslim faith is similar to Christanity, now it's time for you to stop talking the talk and start walking the talk!!

Good idea: these barbarians should be taught about your civilization.

In another post you are glad that these barbarians are awakened suddenly; thanks for the role of your civilized country in awakening our barbarians.

Don't you think: it is so obvious that you once [before your migration] belonged to our barbarian country?
Did you originally come from our barbarian country or from another barbarian state?
=================================================


There are two kinds of miracles:

1- Some miracles are given according to the demand of people: they say to their apostle: Produce a miracle so and so (they specify some peculiar miracle) in order that we may believe you.

2- The other kind of miracles: God gives the apostle the miracle that is proper for his time and the culture of his people.

E.g. of the first kind:
Shuaib was sent to the city of Midian; he invited them to the religion of God: to be exclusively devoted to God alone without associate, and to abandon their religion of the idolatry, and to be just with people: particularly by giving the right weighing and measuring without decreasing such weighing and measuring for people.

His people refused whatever he wrangled with them, then they said to him: You see that tree of our city: it is dead and dry since many many years ago: so if you bring it back to life again so that it grows once again, then we shall believe.

So he dug a trench around that tree and started to water it, then that dead tree became alive and grow once again.

But they refused even then to believe, and said to him: You gave it water, and so it became alive;
he said: but it was dead and you were desperate of it, and you demanded this.
But they refused and denied, and was then destroyed all of them in the earthquake, while Shuaib and the believers with him departed from that city before the earthquake and were saved.

(And the people of 'Ayka' [the huge tree] were also wrong-doers.
So We took vengeance on them. Both of them [Sodom and Midian] were [mentioned] in an obvious precedingbook [: the Torah].

The above between brackets is the explanation of the Quran 15: 78-79

وَإِن كَانَ أَصْحَابُ الأَيْكَةِلَظَالِمِينَ . فَانتَقَمْنَا مِنْهُمْ وَإِنَّهُمَالَبِإِمَامٍ مُّبِينٍ​

 

[YukonJack]

It would be REAL miracle to believe in if you stopped peddling your Islamic nonsense.

 

[eanassir]

==================================

The second kind of miracles:
E.g. God created a certain snake: that snake retracted its head like the turtle and with its scales and become like a stout staff. God put it before Moses, and he picked it deeming it was a staff. Then when God sent him to Pharaoh, God asked him: What's that by your right hand, Moses? Moses did not know it was a serpent; so he said: It is my staff ...etc. So God ordered him: Cast it, Moses.
So he cast it, and it produced its head, and he knew then it was a serpent, and he ran away fearful.
Then God said to him to take it to Pharaoh as a miracle.

("And what is that by your right hand, Moses!"
[Moses] said: "It is my staff; on which I lean; with it I drive along my sheep, and in it I find other uses."
[God] said: "Cast it down, Moses!"
So he cast it down, and it was a snake, moving about.
[God] said: "Take it and fear not. We shall restore it to its first state."
"And put your hand in your armpit, to come out white without evil to be another miracle."
"To show you [in the future, O Moses, some] of Our greatest miracles."
"[O Moses] go to Pharaoh; he has become a tyrant.")


The above between brackets is the explanation of the Quran 20: 17-24

وَمَا تِلْكَ بِيَمِينِكَ يَا مُوسَى . قَالَ هِيَ عَصَايَ أَتَوَكَّأُعَلَيْهَا وَأَهُشُّ بِهَا عَلَى غَنَمِي وَلِيَ فِيهَا مَآرِبُ أُخْرَى ...إلخ​

And listen now to these marvelous revelations about this great story and other revelations included.

http://www.mp3quran.net/newMedia.php?id=20&file=http://server11.mp3quran.net/sds/020.mp3

 

[mentalfloss]

It would be REAL miracle to believe in if you stopped peddling your Islamic nonsense.

I don't think he'll learn until you begin citing revelations.

 

[Durry]

Good idea: these barbarians should be taught about your civilization.

In another post you are glad that these barbarians are awakened suddenly; thanks for the role of your civilized country in awakening our barbarians.

Don't you think: it is so obvious that you once [before your migration] belonged to our barbarian country?
Did you originally come from our barbarian country or from another barbarian state?
=================================================
R]

Hey, eanassir, wake up, its 2011 AD, your civilization has probably been around a lot longer than mine.

In the last 2000+ yrs we have built a great societies and great countries. What the hell have the other barbarians been doing for the last 2000+ yrs???

Now suddenly you have woken up and you want me to start looking after you?? How about you and your fellow Muslims get your act together first and decide how you can help us before you start asking us to help you.
Maybe you should take more time to learn about things like the ethics Chrisians follow to gain respect and dignity from their fellow man!!

Stop making excuses for the failure of your Muslims to build proper societies and countries, admit that your Qran has not done much for the well being of Muslims. If it did, then the proof would be in the pudding, as we say in NA..

 

[Cliffy]

2- The other kind of miracles: God gives the apostle the miracle that is proper for his time and the culture of his people.

After reading this I am wondering why you fail to see that, if Allah is so benevolent, why his message was not given to all people of the Earth in a way that was "proper for his time and the culture of his people". This would mean that all religions and spiritual paths originate from the same source and were given in a way that was "proper for his time and the culture of his people". This would mean that all religions and spiritual paths are just as valid as all the others and equal in importance.

You cannot judge another religion by you view, because your view was given to the people of the Middle East, in particular the Arabic speaking people in a way that was "proper for his time and the culture of his people" and that it was their message and not meant for anybody else. The same applies to the Jewish, Christian, Buddhist and Hindu religions.

My point is that we now live in a global community and that the world is becoming more of a melting pot of ideas and concepts that everybody is free to choose their own path or one that suites their disposition or character. No one religion has the title of god's religion because they all come from the same source, so whichever you choose may be right for you but not for your brother. The debate as to whose religion is better or more holy is ludicrous at best, and down right destructive at worst, causing wars and the killing of innocent people.

I think a much more holy endevour would be to open ones mind to understand the path of others. Understanding your brothers and sister, as we are all children of god, is far more godly an endeavor than condemning them for not believing as you do.

 

[eanassir]

Hey, eanassir, wake up, its 2011 AD, your civilization has probably been around a lot longer than mine.

In the last 2000+ yrs we have built a great societies and great countries. What the hell have the other barbarians been doing for the last 2000+ yrs???

Now suddenly you have woken up and you want me to start looking after you?? How about you and your fellow Muslims get your act together first and decide how you can help us before you start asking us to help you.
Maybe you should take more time to learn about things like the ethics Chrisians follow to gain respect and dignity from their fellow man!!

Stop making excuses for the failure of your Muslims to build proper societies and countries, admit that your Qran has not done much for the well being of Muslims. If it did, then the proof would be in the pudding, as we say in NA..

Ok then, I shall take your advice and awake up
So go away from our countries, and don't think we want you to take care about us; just leave us be, and Jesus may then be pleased with you.

I see you are boasting with your civilization; don't you take the lesson of Japan? Are you immune against such catastrophies?

 

[Durry]

Ok then, I shall take your advice and awake up
So go away from our countries, and don't think we want you to take care about us; just leave us be, and Jesus may then be pleased with you.

I see you are boasting with your civilization; don't you take the lesson of Japan? Are you immune against such catastrophies?

Japan????immune from catastrophies ????? Ohhhh, heavens no eanassir !!!! My gooooodnessss no eanassir !!!
We have our share of catsatrophies eanassir, for instance I vividly still remember that horrific event of 911 eanassir !!!! eeerrrrrrrr, eanassir, come to think of it eanassir, it was an act inspired by the Qran, wasn't it ????
Yeah we have our share of catastrophes all right.

errrrr, eanassir, just a clarification, are you suggesting that if I don't help you, Jesus will bestow a catastrophie on me and my country ??
Oh, I'm sure a peace living muslim man like you would never suggest such a thing,,,,,eerrrrrr. would you ??

 

[Dexter Sinister]

...if God Himself tells us that He has a son, then I should be the first one to worship that son; but this is impossible...

As I predicted: ``Suppose an animal spoke to you this way: "Mohammed is a false prophet, you must accept Jesus Christ as your personal saviour or you will lose." Would that cause you to abandon Islam and become a Christian? I've little doubt your reaction would be, that can't happen, because that's a false claim.`` You`ll accept it as a miracle only if it`s consistent with what you already think is true. Otherwise, it cannot happen, must have been the devil or something attempting to mislead you. There is no substance to your reasoning, and you still do not understand that you cannot legitimately cite the Quran in support of its claims about itself or its message, the argument is not valid. You need corroboration from other sources to legitimize it, and other people`s commentaries on and analyses of the Quran don`t count.

 

[TenPenny]

You`ll accept it as a miracle only if it`s consistent with what you already think is true. Otherwise, it cannot happen, must have been the devil or something attempting to mislead you. .

I believe that is the reasoning of every religious person. Christians would react exactly the same way, and I doubt that any atheist would believe that a miracle was a miracle, if they happened to witness one.

 

[Cliffy]

Miracles are a subjective thing based on ones belief in what is possible. I find that the more I suspend belief, the more life has the opportunity to present miracles. Beliefs restrict possibilities. As eanassir points out, he will only accept a miracle if it fits in with what he believes. That is like wearing blinders that limit your view.

 

[eanassir]

And on the flip side, Christianity has been trying to legitimize itself on the back of the Greek Mythologies for centuries.

Tell me where Angels, Gods in the Clouds, Evil people under ground, Halos, etc. all came from..... among other things.

Let's all face facts shall we?

All religions are just rip-offs of all the other religions that came before them that the new religions now call Myths and Fantasies.

This is what atheists think, and it is wrong.

The religion originally is God's religion: which He revealed that none other than He should be worshipped, and that people should be kind to each other and should not transgress on others.
Then the original religion was distorted through the enthusiasm about the apostles, taking them as intercessors and associates with God.
So God sent a new apostle ... and so on, the cycle continues in this way.

Men wrong each other --> they then deserve misguidance --> so Satan and devils are set on them --> people will start to be enthusiastic about their apostles --> so they fall in the idolatry and associating their apostle with God --> So God will send a new apostle ....... and so on.

There is nothing as you said in the Quran: Gods in clouds, Halos ..etc as you stated. Many myths are invented in the community and considered as the religion, when in fact God's religion came to eradicate such traditions, enthusiasm, bad habits and customs, and all the inventions done by people but not revealed by God.

The Ten Commandments In The Quran

Japan????immune from catastrophies ????? Ohhhh, heavens no eanassir !!!! My gooooodnessss no eanassir !!!
We have our share of catsatrophies eanassir, for instance I vividly still remember that horrific event of 911 eanassir !!!! eeerrrrrrrr, eanassir, come to think of it eanassir, it was an act inspired by the Qran, wasn't it ????
Yeah we have our share of catastrophes all right.

errrrr, eanassir, just a clarification, are you suggesting that if I don't help you, Jesus will bestow a catastrophie on me and my country ??
Oh, I'm sure a peace living muslim man like you would never suggest such a thing,,,,,eerrrrrr. would you ??

You take this as "the shirt of Othman" which is a parable.

What did you do to the Arab and Muslim countries?
Palestine, Syria, Iraq, Afganistan, Algeria, Tunisia, Morroco, Mauritania, Iran, Pakistan, Bangladish, Lebanon, Egypt, Sudan, Libia which you have slayed recently with your sedition and planes, in addition to all the other countries.
Balfour’s Declaration—November, 2, 1917

Tell this to your fleets that roam the seas and oceans here and there; and to your missiles that fell on Iraq and the other Muslim countries; tell this to your leaders who aided the Zionists against Muslims and gave them the wealth and weapon and fighter planes and support them against the Arab and Muslims.
The Role of the American Imperialism

 

[Unforgiven]

This is what atheists think, and it is wrong.

The religion originally is God's religion: which He revealed that none other than He should be worshipped, and that people should be kind to each other and should not transgress on others.
Then the original religion was distorted through the enthusiasm about the apostles, taking them as intercessors and associates with God.
So God sent a new apostle ... and so on, the cycle continues in this way.

Men wrong each other --> they then deserve misguidance --> so Satan and devils are set on them --> people will start to be enthusiastic about their apostles --> so they fall in the idolatry and associating their apostle with God --> So God will send a new apostle ....... and so on.

There is nothing as you said in the Quran: Gods in clouds, Halos ..etc as you stated. Many myths are invented in the community and considered as the religion, when in fact God's religion came to eradicate such traditions, enthusiasm, bad habits and customs, and all the inventions done by people but not revealed by God.

The Ten Commandments In The Quran

That isn't true. God told me you guys are full of crap and he's giving me that real religion which I will be writing down in book form soon. I have to study p[rose first. Then I will publish the book and everyone can bow down and worship the real god, not these fake ones that you hear about today, but the real real God. He's pretty cool let me tell you. Now don't worry about those who tell you that the book by God which I will soon be writing isn't the real book, it is, they are just evil people and only want to trap you and take you to hell with them.

The good news is, when you die, you are in for a seriously big surprise. Trust me!

 

[Cliffy]

This is what atheists think, and it is wrong.

The religion originally is God's religion: which He revealed that none other than He should be worshipped, and that people should be kind to each other and should not transgress on others.

I see that you are afraid to deal with or choose to ignore this:

After reading this I am wondering why you fail to see that, if Allah is so benevolent, why his message was not given to all people of the Earth in a way that was "proper for his time and the culture of his people". This would mean that all religions and spiritual paths originate from the same source and were given in a way that was "proper for his time and the culture of his people". This would mean that all religions and spiritual paths are just as valid as all the others and equal in importance.

You cannot judge another religion by you view, because your view was given to the people of the Middle East, in particular the Arabic speaking people in a way that was "proper for his time and the culture of his people" and that it was their message and not meant for anybody else. The same applies to the Jewish, Christian, Buddhist and Hindu religions.

My point is that we now live in a global community and that the world is becoming more of a melting pot of ideas and concepts that everybody is free to choose their own path or one that suites their disposition or character. No one religion has the title of god's religion because they all come from the same source, so whichever you choose may be right for you but not for your brother. The debate as to whose religion is better or more holy is ludicrous at best, and down right destructive at worst, causing wars and the killing of innocent people.

I think a much more holy endevour would be to open ones mind to understand the path of others. Understanding your brothers and sister, as we are all children of god, is far more godly an endeavor than condemning them for not believing as you do.

 

[eanassir]

As I predicted: ``Suppose an animal spoke to you this way: "Mohammed is a false prophet, you must accept Jesus Christ as your personal saviour or you will lose." Would that cause you to abandon Islam and become a Christian? I've little doubt your reaction would be, that can't happen, because that's a false claim.`` You`ll accept it as a miracle only if it`s consistent with what you already think is true. Otherwise, it cannot happen, must have been the devil or something attempting to mislead you. There is no substance to your reasoning, and you still do not understand that you cannot legitimately cite the Quran in support of its claims about itself or its message, the argument is not valid. You need corroboration from other sources to legitimize it, and other people`s commentaries on and analyses of the Quran don`t count.

Will you answer the question by asking another question?

You stated in your past reply that you will not believe the miracle even if you see it with your own eyes, unless many others also see it; because you don't trust yourself: it may be you have been deluded or under magic maybe!

(And even if We opened before them a gate of heaven and the [angels] continued ascending through it.
They would only say: "Our eye-sight is confounded; nay, but we are under the effect of some magic.")

The above between brackets is the explanation of the Quran 15: 14-15
وَلَوْ فَتَحْنَا عَلَيْهِم بَابًا مِّنَ السَّمَاء فَظَلُّواْ فِيهِ يَعْرُجُونَ
لَقَالُواْ إِنَّمَا سُكِّرَتْ أَبْصَارُنَا بَلْ نَحْنُ قَوْمٌ مَّسْحُورُونَ

That isn't true. God told me you guys are full of crap and he's giving me that real religion which I will be writing down in book form soon. I have to study p[rose first. Then I will publish the book and everyone can bow down and worship the real god, not these fake ones that you hear about today, but the real real God. He's pretty cool let me tell you. Now don't worry about those who tell you that the book by God which I will soon be writing isn't the real book, it is, they are just evil people and only want to trap you and take you to hell with them.

The good news is, when you die, you are in for a seriously big surprise. Trust me!

You will be disappointed in the afterlife.
==============================================


Not everything people demand for, will be answered: i.e. not every miracle that people ask for, will be wrought.
Only the miracle which God wants to do, will be produced.

E.g. Once Jesus Christ was asked by some Jews to produce some miracle, and the Christ answered him: "An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a miracle!?"

Mohammed's people also demanded from him the impossible requests:

(And they say: "We will not believe you [Mohammed] till
you cause,for us, a [water] spring to gush forth from the earth."

"Or you have a garden of date palms and grapes, and cause rivers [like Euphrates and Tigris of Iraq] to flow, amidst them, [after] gushing forth [of springs.]"​

"Or you make the sky to fall down, as you claim, upon us as pieces[of stones];
or you bring [us] God and the angels before us as a warrant."​

"Or you have a house decorated [with gold],
or you ascend up into heaven, and even then we will not believe your ascension till you bring down for us a book that we can read." ​

Say [O Mohammed]: "Glory be to myLord! Am I anything other than a mortal, a messenger!?")​

The above between brackets is the explanation of the Quran 17: 90-93

وَقَالُواْ لَن نُّؤْمِنَ لَكَ حَتَّى تَفْجُرَ لَنَا مِنَ الأَرْضِ يَنبُوعًا​

أَوْ تَكُونَ لَكَ جَنَّةٌ مِّن نَّخِيلٍ وَعِنَبٍ فَتُفَجِّرَ الأَنْهَارَ خِلالَهَا تَفْجِيرًا​

أَوْ تُسْقِطَ السَّمَاء كَمَا زَعَمْتَعَلَيْنَا كِسَفًا أَوْ تَأْتِيَ بِاللّهِ وَالْمَلآئِكَةِ قَبِيلاً
أَوْ يَكُونَ لَكَ بَيْتٌ مِّن زُخْرُفٍ أَوْتَرْقَى فِي السَّمَاء وَلَن نُّؤْمِنَ لِرُقِيِّكَ حَتَّى تُنَزِّلَ عَلَيْنَاكِتَابًا نَّقْرَؤُهُ قُلْ سُبْحَانَ رَبِّي هَلْ كُنتُ إَلاَّ بَشَرًا رَّسُولاً​

 

[Unforgiven]

Will you answer the question by asking another question?

You stated in your past reply that you will not believe the miracle even if you see it with your own eyes, unless many others also see it; because you don't trust yourself: it may be you have been deluded or under magic maybe!

(And even if We opened before them a gate of heaven and the [angels] continued ascending through it.
They would only say: "Our eye-sight is confounded; nay, but we are under the effect of some magic.")

The above between brackets is the explanation of the Quran 15: 14-15
وَلَوْ فَتَحْنَا عَلَيْهِم بَابًا مِّنَ السَّمَاء فَظَلُّواْ فِيهِ يَعْرُجُونَ
لَقَالُواْ إِنَّمَا سُكِّرَتْ أَبْصَارُنَا بَلْ نَحْنُ قَوْمٌ مَّسْحُورُونَ



You will be disappointed in the afterlife.

Not everything people demand for, will be answered: i.e. not every miracle that people ask for, will be wrought.
Only the miracle which God wants to do, will be produced.

E.g. Once Jesus Christ was asked by some Jews to produce some miracle, and the Christ answered him: "An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a miracle!?"

Mohammed's people also demanded from him the impossible requests:

(

1. And they say: "We will not believe you [Mohammed] till you cause,for us, a [water] spring to gush forth from the earth."​

2. "Or you have a garden of date palms and grapes, and cause rivers toflow, amidst them, [after] gushing forth [of springs.]"​

3. "Or you make the sky to fall down, as you claim, upon us as pieces[of stones]; or you bring [us] God and the angels before us as a warrant."​

4. "Or you have a house decorated [with gold], or you ascend up intoheaven, and even then we will not believe your ascension till you bring downfor us a book that we can read." Say [O Mohammed]: "Glory be to myLord! Am I nothing but a mortal, a messenger!?")​

The above between brackets is the explanation of the Quran 17: 90-93

وَقَالُواْ لَن نُّؤْمِنَ لَكَ حَتَّىتَفْجُرَ لَنَا مِنَ الأَرْضِ يَنبُوعًا​

أَوْ تَكُونَ لَكَ جَنَّةٌ مِّننَّخِيلٍ وَعِنَبٍ فَتُفَجِّرَ الأَنْهَارَ خِلالَهَا تَفْجِيرًا​

أَوْ تُسْقِطَ السَّمَاء كَمَا زَعَمْتَعَلَيْنَا كِسَفًا أَوْ تَأْتِيَ بِاللّهِ وَالْمَلآئِكَةِ قَبِيلاً​

أَوْ يَكُونَ لَكَ بَيْتٌ مِّن زُخْرُفٍ أَوْتَرْقَى فِي السَّمَاء وَلَن نُّؤْمِنَ لِرُقِيِّكَ حَتَّى تُنَزِّلَ عَلَيْنَاكِتَابًا نَّقْرَؤُهُ قُلْ سُبْحَانَ رَبِّي هَلْ كُنتُ إَلاَّ بَشَرًا رَّسُولاً

See what I mean? Already it starts and I can only shake my head at the non believers who can't have a little simple faith and embrace glory.

God once said to me, "Dude just don't screw up" it was such a cool thing and it meant alot at the time. God also told me that when you die, everything you ever wanted to know will be answered clearly and in easy to understand terms no matter who you are or how much understanding you have right now. That's just the way it should I too I think.

Many you guys are going to go Woodstock over this book when I get it written. Oh yeah there's going to be picture too! I knew you could dig it!

 

[Dexter Sinister]

You stated in your past reply that you will not believe the miracle even if you see it with your own eyes, unless many others also see it; because you don't trust yourself:

No, that's not quite what I said, there were other stipulations, but I'll let that pass. The point was, if you're going to claim a miracle happened, the standards of evidence must be VERY high, because that's an extraordinary claim. It means, in effect, that some widely known and understood aspect of our knowledge of how things are has been violated. We can't simply accept somebody's word for that, that's being altogether too credulous, doesn't matter who it is.

 

[Durry]

You take this as "the shirt of Othman" which is a parable.

What did you do to the Arab and Muslim countries?
Palestine, Syria, Iraq, Afganistan, Algeria, Tunisia, Morroco, Mauritania, Iran, Pakistan, Bangladish, Lebanon, Egypt, Sudan, Libia which you have slayed recently with your sedition and planes, in addition to all the other countries.
Balfour’s Declaration—November, 2, 1917

Tell this to your fleets that roam the seas and oceans here and there; and to your missiles that fell on Iraq and the other Muslim countries; tell this to your leaders who aided the Zionists against Muslims and gave them the wealth and weapon and fighter planes and support them against the Arab and Muslims.
The Role of the American Imperialism

eanassir

So, is this reason your so happy 911 happened?

Do you want to see more such attacks?

Hmmmm, you never answered my question about what your people have been doing in the last 2000 yrs while we were building a civilization and a society.

Are you blaming us for that as well?

Ummmm, you seem to harbor a lot of hatred.*

Well I can understand you coming here because you have screwed up your own country, but is it proper to come to someone else's house who offers you a lot of warmth and services, when you know full well the hatred you carry for the owner of that house?*
Well, *it certainly is not a western way but I'm not sure if this is ok by Muslim standards.

You see in the west, we want people to come here and contribute, but at the same time we want those people to check their garbage ways and hate at the boarder before they enter Canada.

Are you sure Canada is the right country for you ?

 

[Cliffy]

Are you sure Canada is the right country for you ?

He's not in Canada. I think he is in Iraq.

 

[Durry]

He's not in Canada. I think he is in Iraq.

Oh, I didn't know that.
That explains some things for me.
Thks for letting me know.