Idle No More -Where is the Leadership?

[Goober]

I say 100% of natives need to get off their a$$es and become self-sufficient for themselves. If it is handed to them on a plate they will squander it. It is not my job or your job to build a life for someone else, they need to do it for themselves.


How about this one then.....
"I've been #IdleTooLong about this whole topic, and I feel like I need to express my point of view without disrupting innocent travelers on highways, and cargo carrying freight trains.
First, allow me to clarify that I am a Cree man with full status. I have family in positions of political power in this very province, and should declare that my opinions are my own. While everyone needles over the finite details of the current situation, I'd like to paint my thoughts for you with much broader strokes.

I'm so very proud of my culture. The way the plains Indians lived on this land was a fantastic example of community, art, respect for our environment, ingenuity, and spirituality. I'm proud of the native inspired tattoos that I sport permanently on my body. As a father, I'm teaching my son that same respect and understanding of where his blood derives from, in the hopes that his pride will outshine the prejudice he will inevitably experience growing up, or at some point in his life.

Pt 1- Good parenting.

I'm also very proud to be Canadian. Our vast mosaic of cultures, languages, and beliefs make up this welcoming land of opportunity for all. Whether you like it or not, we all have the same citizenship, but some have a different view on the value of it.

As many FN Peoples are that have recieved fair treatment. Can you blame those that have been treated unfarily to be upset, angry. Ontario and Manitoba FN peoples have the worst problems from health to housing. Why do you not address why they are angry.

I don't pretend to know all the ins and outs of the government bills, documentation, or policy that is driving the current protests, but I've intently watched news stories, read columns, and have regularly monitored the comments being made on facebook. Based on all of this, I feel the need to break my silence on this issue.

Pt 2 Then educate yourself. You appear to have lacked doing that, getting informed on the issues over how many years?

1 - It's embarrassing how the #IdleNoMore protest is being handled.
Blocking major traffic thoroughfares does nothing good to bring support and awareness to your cause, it creates immediate animosity towards you. Protesting freely in parks or in front of government buildings seems like a much more productive way to attract the attention of those you seek. The politicians. Not the regular welder-Joe who's just trying to get to work. Hold him up and cost him money? See how much support you'll get out of that guy...

I agree- Discussion along with change is needed.

Clarify what you are protesting for, or against. I've never seen such a passionate group of people go forward in protest in such disarray, and without clearly stating what it's all about. If it's generally about your need to be consulted, respected, justified for being mistreated, or the preservation of your culture, then let's be out with it and start a constructive discussion.

The IDNM has been clear- The problem is that power blocs with Agendas have hijacked IDNM. The leadership has to take the lead.

Understand that you do not need to be consulted for anything any more than the Canadian citizen next to you does. Your opinion on things doesn't count "more" than anyone else's.
Respect is earned, not given.

Wrong- According to the SCoC they do. Again refer to point 2 - Get educated.

There's no question that the native people of yesterday were brutalized, hunted, tortured, and humiliated for decades. It's awful, and no one should ever have to suffer like that. The elders of the time signed those treaties to bring peace, and offer what they hoped would be a leg-up in a new world that they realized couldn't be held at bay. But those days are long over. It defies logic to have the current population pay for the tragedies committed by people that came so long before them.

I agree that I cannot be held accountable for past issues. I can be held accountable for seeing that the rights of FN peoples are not addressed in a fair manner- By both FN and the Govt. To many wanting to protect their power and influence.

 

[petros]

You're using a whole lot of prairie history and a little revisionism to formulate your conclusions.

Other than that, an excellent post.

It's part of my history too which begins it's story in 1888.

I left out two parties who I haven't heard a single complaint about and who are guilty as charged. HBC and CPR.

When adding those two, things go off the charts when it comes to screwing people over.

Not just Native people but almost all people........


except for the English.

 

[Cliffy]

Just received this from a friend:

Grand Chief Stewart Phillip - Idle No More Penticton - YouTube. - YouTube

For those of you who want to understand what the movement is about.

 

[petros]

He is 100% right about the women but he doesn't get the gist of Globalism, politial redundancy, and the decay of infrastructure that is problematic to us all.

 

[Cliffy]

He is 100% right about the women but he doesn't get the gist of Globalism, politial redundancy, and the decay of infrastructure that is problematic to us all.

The movement has gone global, politics is a joke and decaying infrastructure is a sign of empirical decay. The empire is falling and it can't reach its beer. Out of order come chaos, followed by order out of chaos. We either go with the flow or get swept away by it.

 

[petros]

The movement has gone global, politics is a joke and decaying infrastructure is a sign of empirical decay. The empire is falling and it can't reach its beer. Out of order come chaos, followed by order out of chaos. We either go with the flow or get swept away by it.

The time has come where we have no choice but pay the piper. If you haven't noticed the countryside is being depopulated and urban centers are growing rapidly. If you want the environment and nature to survive there is no choice but get out of the woods and the plains..

30 years ago the land I farm used to support 7 families. 60 years ago it supported over 20 families. 90 years ago 50+ familes.

I do the work of what once took 100 people to do.

1 man, 1 tractor and the soil hasn't been cultivated during my kick at the can.

Change is happening Cliffy. Far faster than you think.

 

[Cliffy]

The time has come where we have no choice but pay the piper. If you haven't noticed the countryside is being depopulated and urban centers are growing rapidly. If you want the environment and nature to survive there is no choice but get out of the woods and the plains..

30 years ago the land I farm used to support 7 families. 60 years ago it supported over 20 families. 90 years ago 50+ familes.

I do the work of what once took 100 people to do.

1 man, 1 tractor and the soil hasn't been cultivated during my kick at the can.

Change is happening Cliffy. Far faster than you think.

Nature and the environment are dying because of urbanization, not because there are people still living on the fringes. Cities are urban concentration camps. When the sh*t hits the fan, cities will be devastated. Whether it is cataclysmic events or disease or war, People in cities will be hooped. Besides, I don't follow sheep that are being lead to the slaughter. I am painfully aware of how fast things are changing for the worse. I think I will live out my life where I feel most at home - in the wilderness.

 

[L Gilbert]

The time has come where we have no choice but pay the piper. If you haven't noticed the countryside is being depopulated and urban centers are growing rapidly. If you want the environment and nature to survive there is no choice but get out of the woods and the plains..

Um, nope. Kelowna was a small center with loads of great agricultural land around it, at one time. It managed to supply fruit not only for its own citizens, but for citizens all over North Am. Now? Because of suburbs and whatnot, it can't even feed itself. Why? Because people flocked there, paved over the "woods and plains", built on the "woods and plains", etc. and took up most of the space. That's it, turn the entire countryside into an over-populated zoo.

Thanks, but I'll pass up on the convenience of being in an urban or suburban environment and stick with being in the sticks.

 

[petros]

Um, nope. Kelowna was a small center with loads of great agricultural land around it, at one time. It managed to supply fruit not only for its own citizens, but for citizens all over North Am. Now? Because of suburbs and whatnot, it can't even feed itself. Why? Because people flocked there, paved over the "woods and plains", built on the "woods and plains", etc. and took up most of the space. That's it, turn the entire countryside into an over-populated zoo.

Thanks, but I'll pass up on the convenience of being in an urban or suburban environment and stick with being in the sticks.

Kelowna has and always will be a sh*thole. The crops there all relied on irrigation. Good crop land doesn't need irrigation.

It wasn't until after the lakes were cleaned up which required fancy unheard of things like sewage plants, irrigation, fertilizer and pesticide use to be ceased which decimated crop yields and quality.

Then came more "green" crap and Mac Blo and other mills closed. It wasn't until then that people went there in droves because there was no economy left and land was cheap after the originals all left.

"Green" killed the old Kelowna but was it really better when sh*t, pesticides, fertilizers flowed freely into the lakes feeding the milfoil and algaes that stank to high heaven choking out the fish making it a disappointing place to holiday?

Nature and the environment are dying because of urbanization, not because there are people still living on the fringes. Cities are urban concentration camps. When the sh*t hits the fan, cities will be devastated. Whether it is cataclysmic events or disease or war, People in cities will be hooped. Besides, I don't follow sheep that are being lead to the slaughter. I am painfully aware of how fast things are changing for the worse. I think I will live out my life where I feel most at home - in the wilderness.

Really? It's cities killing the countryside eh? The people living in the countryside have nothing to do with it? It's better that food and other necessities are trucked from cities to feed the countryside? Millions of miles of copper for power and telecomm million of tonnes of oil to pave roads to no-where, millions of tonnes of steel used to pipe nat gas to a handful of people?

Yeaaaaah right!

 

[ChristianMN]

"The Nations that were here when the Europeans arrived. It really isn't that difficult a concept to grasp.

The Europeans came, met a group of different Nations here. In the north the Nations were negotiated with by Royal Proclamation. Hence the different treaties written and signed by the different Nations.

I hope that clears things up."

You don't seem to understand my point. Nations tend to have larger scale systems of governance. They tend to have modern forms of civil justice or are forming them. The "nations" the Europeans came across in the North Americas had barely discovered democracy (in the form of the Iroquois). Yes, the Europeans were still forming many concepts themselves, but at least they were forming them. It is very likely had the Aboriginals in this country been left to their own devices that they would not have formed a more advanced system of governance, transportation, commerce, civil liberty and the list goes on. The NATIONS of Europe brought those things and then expanded on them through the centuries.

Quote:

He says he wants it on his terms.
​

What's wrong with that?"

EVERYTHING! You're saying that every aboriginal tribe is a nation....so, there are over three hundred aboriginal tribes in Canada (couldn't say the same about Europe by the by, or even Asia [Which, have nations states]). So one man representing over thirty million people is supposed to meet with three hundred leaders representing a little over one percent of the population? That makes absolutely no sense and you know it.

Quote:

They receive a great deal more money per capita (considering they do not pay taxes) than the average Canadian.
​

Use the search function and look up "Fiscal Imbalance".

Aboriginals do not pay taxes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WHERE IS THE IMBALANCE damnit! WHERE!!!!!!!! When they start paying taxes.....talk to me@!!!!@@$%@#$^%#@%!!!!!!

I'm sorry to everyone that had to read that diatribe. It just makes me incredibly angry that those who support this kind of absolute idiocy continue to be given credence even though the evidence show them to be shadows asking for more dark.

I might add in response to my first paragraph; The reason we signed treaties (we being the British Crown), was because we were concerned with the prospect of American invasion and so sought the assistance of the various tribes (and at one point united under Tecumseh). I would point out that Scotland faced the same prospects, a divided group of CLANS. NOT a nation. Scotland did not become a nation until it was forced to united by continued invasion from the Picts and other local powers.

Europe became a group of nation states through a series of wars and thousands of years of intellectual development, scientific achievement and social upheaval. ALL current political systems stem from Europe (or Asia and the Mideast), and were created through thousands of years of strife. You cannot call a tribe of 3500 people a nation, and you cannot call banging on drums, whooping and smudging culture.

 

[Cliffy]

And perhaps they had a better system than democracy, which is at best the tyranny of the majority and at worst, a corporate dictatorship. There is much more to native culture than banging on drums and smudging. But people have to trust your sincerity in order to be privileged to get to see it. With your attitude, you are lucky you even saw drumming.

 

[petros]

And perhaps they had a better system than democracy, which is at best the tyranny of the majority and at worst, a corporate dictatorship. There is much more to native culture than banging on drums and smudging. But people have to trust your sincerity in order to be privileged to get to see it. With your attitude, you are lucky you even saw drumming.

If you ask a Native what his nationality is he'll say Cree or Ojib or Dene etc long before say he's Canadian. It's the lumping them together that really pisses them off. There is a lot of Tribal pride that to this day still creates a seperation and a distinct "Nation" in each Tribe.

 

[CDNBear]

You don't seem to understand my point. Nations tend to have larger scale systems of governance.

The system of governance of my people was adopted in part by the US.

Is that big enough?

They tend to have modern forms of civil justice or are forming them.

My people have the longest running participatory democracy on earth.

The "nations" the Europeans came across in the North Americas had barely discovered democracy (in the form of the Iroquois).

Barely? Or system was adopted in part by the US.

Aboriginals in this country been left to their own devices that they would not have formed a more advanced system of governance, transportation, commerce, civil liberty and the list goes on.

Not that you're right, so?

EVERYTHING! You're saying that every aboriginal tribe is a nation..

No I'm not. Some are, some aren't.

So one man representing over thirty million people is supposed to meet with three hundred leaders representing a little over one percent of the population?

Yes.

That makes absolutely no sense and you know it.

It makes no sense to you. But you have a very limited understanding of the history and the contracts.

Aboriginals do not pay taxes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WHERE IS THE IMBALANCE damnit! WHERE!!!!!!!! When they start paying taxes.....talk to me@!!!!@@$%@#$^%#@%!!!!!!

I'm a card carrying status Native, I pay taxes.

You really should do a little research. That way you can avoid making such idiotic statements.

I'm sorry to everyone that had to read that diatribe. It just makes me incredibly angry that those who support this kind of absolute idiocy continue to be given credence even though the evidence show them to be shadows asking for more dark.

You should just apologize for the idiocy in whole, contained in your posts.

I might add in response to my first paragraph; The reason we signed treaties (we being the British Crown), was because we were concerned with the prospect of American invasion and so sought the assistance of the various tribes (and at one point united under Tecumseh).

Geezus what a stupid thing to say, America didn't even exist when many treaties were written or created.

The Royal Proclamation of 1763, set forth the rules in which the transfer of land and the contracts would be drafted.

ALL current political systems stem from Europe (or Asia and the Mideast), and were created through thousands of years of strife.

Actually, the US political system stems from a healthy helping of the Haudenosaunee.

You cannot call a tribe of 3500 people a nation, and you cannot call banging on drums, whooping and smudging culture.

Sure you can, if you aren't a bigot that ignores facts and reality.

 

[ChristianMN]

And perhaps they had a better system than democracy, which is at best the tyranny of the majority and at worst, a corporate dictatorship. There is much more to native culture than banging on drums and smudging. But people have to trust your sincerity in order to be privileged to get to see it. With your attitude, you are lucky you even saw drumming.

The larger a population becomes the less effective democracy becomes. So yes, you're probably right that they had a better form of democracy based on the fact they had a smaller population. So did Greece.

Growing up one of my best friends was a treaty member of the Tsu Tina. I worked at the Calgary drop in Center. I worked with Cree, Sioux, Metis and a LOT of people from Morely. I've been in sweat lodges and been a part of pow wows. Those are western Aboriginal traditions. Not Eastern (which were mostly wiped out) and not Western (which lived in longhouses, had a system of fiefdoms and built totems to represent their families).

You come across like you're some sort of expert on Aboriginal culture, but I've studied it first hand and read about it through personal studies. I think you need to take a step back and realize that there are hundreds of different traditions within a severely divided society which likes to present itself as united.

 

[CDNBear]

Not Eastern (which were mostly wiped out) and not Western (which lived in longhouses, had a system of fiefdoms and built totems to represent their families).

What utter BS.

The longhouse is quintessentially an eastern product.

Constitutionally supported democracies are also an eastern product.

Totems are an eastern spiritual affectation, not some thing that was "built".

The west coast First Nations built totems.

You come across like you're some sort of expert on Aboriginal culture, but I've studied it first hand and read about it through personal studies.

LMAO!

Is that why you keep making idiotic statements that have no basis in fact or reality?

 

[petros]

What utter BS.

The longhouse is quintessentially an eastern product.

Constitutionally supported democracies are also an eastern product.

Totems are an eastern spiritual affectation, not some thing that was "built".

The west coast First Nations built totems.

LMAO!

Is that why you keep making idiotic statements that have no basis in fact or reality?

I know what you stand for Bear. Maybe someday all Canadians will know what "sit" and "stand" mean in the Native political context.

 

[Machjo]

The story of the Peacemaker and the establishment of the Great Law of Peace should say something about their civilization. I've even heard of some Baha'is speculating as to whether the Peacemaker may have been a previous Prophet of God owing to the similarities.

The Confederacy established on that Law influenced the US Constitution!

Not bad, eh.

 

[ChristianMN]

The system of governance of my people was adopted in part by the US.

Is that big enough?

My people have the longest running participatory democracy on earth.

Barely? Or system was adopted in part by the US.

Not that you're right, so?
No I'm not. Some are, some aren't.

Yes.

It makes no sense to you. But you have a very limited understanding of the history and the contracts.

I'm a card carrying status Native, I pay taxes.

You really should do a little research. That way you can avoid making such idiotic statements.

You should just apologize for the idiocy in whole, contained in your posts.

Geezus what a stupid thing to say, America didn't even exist when many treaties were written or created.

The Royal Proclamation of 1763, set forth the rules in which the transfer of land and the contracts would be drafted.

Actually, the US political system stems from a healthy helping of the Haudenosaunee.

Sure you can, if you aren't a bigot that ignores facts and reality.

I'll take this one by one...

1. You've just proven my point, although that wasn't my intent. You're saying that your people took the idea of Democracy from Europeans. Although I know that isn't true, it's what you just said.

2. Your people do not have the longest standing participatory democracy on earth because first you did not invent it, and secondly because even if democracy failed at times in the rest of the world the rest of the world has been developing longer than you've been on this continent. Please, look up the migratory patterns of human beings and those timelines. In fact you're more closely related to Mongolians than any other "race".

3. Again...Why are you disparaging your own peoples accomplishments?

4. I understand fully the fact that the British Crown signed treaties with the Aboriginals of this nation. My own family fought against the British Crown as Jacobites. It's part of the reason my family came here. There are also thousands of people...no, MILLIONS of people that have come here because they sought refuge from dictators and other such persecution. I'ts no longer a question of the Crown vs. the Aboriginals in regards to various contracts. It's now an issue of CANADA vs. the various Aboriginal groups.

So, go ahead and punish millions for the choices of a few made hundreds of years ago in bad faith and under different terms. That makes a lot of sense. Especially considering the fact that the British Crown has absolutely no power to do anything since the Westminster Act.

Well, If you want to call me a bigot, that's your prerogative. I'm not going to bother defending myself because I've come to the conclusion that you've made your decision and most of those who support you or hold your beliefs have done the same.

I will say this however. There will come a time when ninety seven percent of the population (mostly non-whites ironically), will simply get tired of the fact that they came to this country seeking a better life, and are being subjected to demands and threats by a minority which is dysfunctional (for the most part) to begin with. It's only a matter of time.

What utter BS.

The longhouse is quintessentially an eastern product.

Constitutionally supported democracies are also an eastern product.

Totems are an eastern spiritual affectation, not some thing that was "built".

The west coast First Nations built totems.

LMAO!

Is that why you keep making idiotic statements that have no basis in fact or reality?

Quintessentially? Have you never seen a Western Aboriginal longhouse? I never said democracy was a Western Aboriginal product; and Totems are so incredibly associated with British Colombian Aboriginals they put it on a god damn coin...........

 

[CDNBear]

You're saying that your people took the idea of Democracy from Europeans. Although I know that isn't true, it's what you just said.

No I didn't.

Learn to read.

2. Your people do not have the longest standing participatory democracy on earth...

You fail again.

The Six Nations: Oldest Living Participatory Democracy on Earth

3. Again...Why are you disparaging your own peoples accomplishments?

No I'm not, you obviously can't read.

4. I understand fully the fact that the British Crown signed treaties with the Aboriginals of this nation.

That's all you understand, and that's being generous.

I'ts no longer a question of the Crown vs. the Aboriginals in regards to various contracts. It's now an issue of CANADA vs. the various Aboriginal groups.

The fact that Canada as both a Commonwealth and constitutional monarchy operating in the framework of a parliamentary democracy, has already accept it's duty to adhere to those treaties, you'd be wrong on both counts.

Well, If you want to call me a bigot, that's your prerogative. I'm not going to bother defending myself because I've come to the conclusion that you've made your decision and most of those who support you or hold your beliefs have done the same.

Based on your mangled version of realty and willful ignorance of the facts.

I will say this however. There will come a time when ninety seven percent of the population (mostly non-whites ironically), will simply get tired of the fact that they came to this country seeking a better life, and are being subjected to demands and threats by a minority which is dysfunctional (for the most part) to begin with. It's only a matter of time.

Maybe. But only if they believe the crap you do.

 

[petros]

The Six Nations: Oldest Living Participatory Democracy on Earth.

"The Circle" isn't a spring chicken either.