How should Canada approach the NWT dispute?
- Thread starter Machjo
- Start date
Since if is Canadian territory right up to the North Pole there can be no dispute. It IS Canadian waters. Therefore nothing to dake to arbitration.
It is Canadian waters. Says who? The Canadian government? The US government the EU say it's international waters. So then we get into a 'he says, she says' dispute. Who's right? The Canadian government or the US and the EU? It's one country's word against many others. If I say that this piece of land is my property, and you disagree and say it's public property, my simply stating with a tantrum that it's my property doesn't make it so. My taking it to court, however, might make it so if I have evidence to back it up. That's why we need arbitration. Until we have arbitration, the Canadian government has no legal leg to stand on in its claim to it being Canadian waters beyond how loudly Canada can throw a tantrum.
To take an example, even if Canada suddenly proclaimed that the North Pole was its, that alone would not make it ture. Canada would have to make a claim to the international community with a good reason for appropriating it.
Imagine, what would happen if Canada could ust declare that the whole Pacific Ocean 200 km off all coasts was Canadian waters, would that make it so?
The poll is irrelevant.
This article from The Globe and Mail discusses what the issues are. It is mainly about managing shipping and environmental protection. There are no real challenges to our "Arctic sovereignty." I'm a bit surprised too.
globeandmail.com: Moving beyond Arctic sovereignty
This article from The Globe and Mail discusses what the issues are. It is mainly about managing shipping and environmental protection. There are no real challenges to our "Arctic sovereignty." I'm a bit surprised too.
globeandmail.com: Moving beyond Arctic sovereignty
Indeed this poll is not at all irrelevant.
In my view it is extremely important.
It is articles like the above linked G&M article by a USA patsy that lead Canada into a complacent attitude that is the true problem.
Canada is going to loose the rights over vast areas of Arctic ocean and seabed.
That is a sure thing folks. The only question is how much?
Parts of what virtually all Canadians assume is Northern Canadian territory is for all intents and purposes gone. We are now haggling over what remains.
Other posters seem to think that our 200 mile boundaries and our claimed areas of influence are recognized internationally. They are not.
Some seem to think the International Law of the Sea and international court's and arbitration will settle in Canada's favor. That is naive.
In international law you need to set a precedent of care and control over claimed regions.
Thus if you hypothetically claim an island as part of your country you need to develop, populate, patrol or take some interest in the island in question.
If your country is able to do so.
Sad to say but the old "might makes right" and "possession is 9/10 of the law" do actually have some legal standing.
Years ago Trudeau intentionally gutted the Canadian military and adopted a socialist, brotherhood of nations world view.
We have not really done a thing with the high Arctic since that time.
Because Canada is a reasonably rich nation it could have developed the far north if it chose to.
It could have purchased or built all weather heavy icebreakers.
It could have built many more research and monitoring stations.
It could have purchased under ice capable subs.
It could have built airstrips and high Arctic bases (Alert is primarily funded by Americans).
It could have increased its military northern and patrol capabilities.
We chose not to.
More or less a fed Lib decision.
So the international world view is that we have never cared about, or done a thing with the high Arctic. No research to speak of. No development. No monitoring. No patrols or bases. No defense. In short no interest. On the upside we kept it more or less tidy.
So when we go to the world court with our claim of ownership.
We are going to loose a whole bunch of territory.
The above map shows all the present disputed and non disputed boundaries from a top down arctic view.
Sorry the picture is small but its easy to find on the net complete with the color key for regions and zones.
Basically all Canada's boundaries are disputed.
Between Alaska and Canada the Americans have claimed a vast wedge of what you would think is Canadian territory.
The reason is, of course, because that region is rich in potential oil & gas resources as well as potentially being a fishery.
So that chunk is gone for good.
But the Americans are disputing and encroaching even more.
Next the Russians.
If they can prove that their continental shelf runs underwater right up the Canadian islands (Ellesmere) then they can claim all the waters above their continental shelf.
And that would be most of the Arctic ocean.
Well that's just what they claim.
And now they are starting to aggressively patrol it by land and sea.
We aren't.
So I guess we will see them in court assuming of course that they are sporting enough not to just seize it by force of arms.
Next the Danes.
All the waters east of Greenland basically become Danish and Icelandic.
So there's that gone.
The Danes dispute the boundary to the west of Greenland and are both claiming islands that are part of the Canadian archipelago and insisting the ocean boundaries be shifted westward.
The region is known to contain resources and again is a potential fishery.
They are also increasing their ocean claims southwards from Greenland and trying to impinge on Canadian North Atlantic zones.
They, like the Americans on the other side of us are also claiming huge chunks of the Arctic ocean above Greenland.
So I guess we will see them in court as well.
The European Union recently had an extensive report and lengthy recommendations prepared concerning the far north, Arctic waterways, resource development, Arctic Island( that would be Canada) control and development.
Canada sat expectantly on the side lines just knowing that those well meaning socialist Europeans would come to fair and just conclusion.
Boy were we ever surprised.
The Europeans decided that Canada was totally unprepared and incompetent to look after the far north and the Arctic.
It was better for it all to be turned over to them to be looked after.
Right, sure thing.
St.Pierre and Miquelon are lobbying France to ignore Canada's 200 mile limit and instead claim a 200 mile limit for France.
There go the Scotian shelf and Newfie fisheries and oilfields.
Sure hope France is fair about the whole thing because if they decide to send over a couple of subs and an aircraft carrier there is not a lot we are going to be able to do about it.
Next up the Northwest Passage.
The Americans insist that it is an international water way.
That would mean those are international waters.
That means the Canadian arctic archipelago would be cut off by international waters.
That means anybody who wants can run military ships and fly military flights in and above those international waters as much as they want.
So all these waters and islands that other countries are claiming are either theirs or international.
What are we going to do when they start building military outposts?
Start testing their weapons or performing military maneuvers, flying their cruise missals around?
Dumping nuclear and biological wastes at sea?
Move in a semi-sub or drillships and start drilling for oil and gas?
Start strip mining the ocean for fish or resources?
Why do you think all these countries are crawling all over each other to claim Canadian territories?
Why is everyone trying to claim bits of Canada?
Why is Canada not claiming parts of Greenland, Alaska or Russia?
Because we are honest, trusting and have all the land we need.
They aren't and don't and they plan on taking as much of our country as they can get.
Sorry about the long winded rant but in my view Canadians better wake up and smell the coffee.
We are going to loose a whole bunch of territory to other countries.
How much is still up to us.
If we don't start patrolling and developing it, someone else will.
Its that simple.
Trex
In my view it is extremely important.
It is articles like the above linked G&M article by a USA patsy that lead Canada into a complacent attitude that is the true problem.
Canada is going to loose the rights over vast areas of Arctic ocean and seabed.
That is a sure thing folks. The only question is how much?
Parts of what virtually all Canadians assume is Northern Canadian territory is for all intents and purposes gone. We are now haggling over what remains.
Other posters seem to think that our 200 mile boundaries and our claimed areas of influence are recognized internationally. They are not.
Some seem to think the International Law of the Sea and international court's and arbitration will settle in Canada's favor. That is naive.
In international law you need to set a precedent of care and control over claimed regions.
Thus if you hypothetically claim an island as part of your country you need to develop, populate, patrol or take some interest in the island in question.
If your country is able to do so.
Sad to say but the old "might makes right" and "possession is 9/10 of the law" do actually have some legal standing.
Years ago Trudeau intentionally gutted the Canadian military and adopted a socialist, brotherhood of nations world view.
We have not really done a thing with the high Arctic since that time.
Because Canada is a reasonably rich nation it could have developed the far north if it chose to.
It could have purchased or built all weather heavy icebreakers.
It could have built many more research and monitoring stations.
It could have purchased under ice capable subs.
It could have built airstrips and high Arctic bases (Alert is primarily funded by Americans).
It could have increased its military northern and patrol capabilities.
We chose not to.
More or less a fed Lib decision.
So the international world view is that we have never cared about, or done a thing with the high Arctic. No research to speak of. No development. No monitoring. No patrols or bases. No defense. In short no interest. On the upside we kept it more or less tidy.
So when we go to the world court with our claim of ownership.
We are going to loose a whole bunch of territory.
The above map shows all the present disputed and non disputed boundaries from a top down arctic view.
Sorry the picture is small but its easy to find on the net complete with the color key for regions and zones.
Basically all Canada's boundaries are disputed.
Between Alaska and Canada the Americans have claimed a vast wedge of what you would think is Canadian territory.
The reason is, of course, because that region is rich in potential oil & gas resources as well as potentially being a fishery.
So that chunk is gone for good.
But the Americans are disputing and encroaching even more.
Next the Russians.
If they can prove that their continental shelf runs underwater right up the Canadian islands (Ellesmere) then they can claim all the waters above their continental shelf.
And that would be most of the Arctic ocean.
Well that's just what they claim.
And now they are starting to aggressively patrol it by land and sea.
We aren't.
So I guess we will see them in court assuming of course that they are sporting enough not to just seize it by force of arms.
Next the Danes.
All the waters east of Greenland basically become Danish and Icelandic.
So there's that gone.
The Danes dispute the boundary to the west of Greenland and are both claiming islands that are part of the Canadian archipelago and insisting the ocean boundaries be shifted westward.
The region is known to contain resources and again is a potential fishery.
They are also increasing their ocean claims southwards from Greenland and trying to impinge on Canadian North Atlantic zones.
They, like the Americans on the other side of us are also claiming huge chunks of the Arctic ocean above Greenland.
So I guess we will see them in court as well.
The European Union recently had an extensive report and lengthy recommendations prepared concerning the far north, Arctic waterways, resource development, Arctic Island( that would be Canada) control and development.
Canada sat expectantly on the side lines just knowing that those well meaning socialist Europeans would come to fair and just conclusion.
Boy were we ever surprised.
The Europeans decided that Canada was totally unprepared and incompetent to look after the far north and the Arctic.
It was better for it all to be turned over to them to be looked after.
Right, sure thing.
St.Pierre and Miquelon are lobbying France to ignore Canada's 200 mile limit and instead claim a 200 mile limit for France.
There go the Scotian shelf and Newfie fisheries and oilfields.
Sure hope France is fair about the whole thing because if they decide to send over a couple of subs and an aircraft carrier there is not a lot we are going to be able to do about it.
Next up the Northwest Passage.
The Americans insist that it is an international water way.
That would mean those are international waters.
That means the Canadian arctic archipelago would be cut off by international waters.
That means anybody who wants can run military ships and fly military flights in and above those international waters as much as they want.
So all these waters and islands that other countries are claiming are either theirs or international.
What are we going to do when they start building military outposts?
Start testing their weapons or performing military maneuvers, flying their cruise missals around?
Dumping nuclear and biological wastes at sea?
Move in a semi-sub or drillships and start drilling for oil and gas?
Start strip mining the ocean for fish or resources?
Why do you think all these countries are crawling all over each other to claim Canadian territories?
Why is everyone trying to claim bits of Canada?
Why is Canada not claiming parts of Greenland, Alaska or Russia?
Because we are honest, trusting and have all the land we need.
They aren't and don't and they plan on taking as much of our country as they can get.
Sorry about the long winded rant but in my view Canadians better wake up and smell the coffee.
We are going to loose a whole bunch of territory to other countries.
How much is still up to us.
If we don't start patrolling and developing it, someone else will.
Its that simple.
Trex
Last edited:
It's ours and no one can question that. Spill the blood of any who claim our land until there is no blood left to spill.
Do Panama, Spain/Morocco, France/Belgium/Netherlands/Britain, etc. squawk about who uses nearby passages or when?
I got no problem sitting in the cold high tower turning skulls into fine pink mist.
You don't work for the Postal Service, do you? 8O :lol::lol::lol:
____________________
Only when some claims them. I am sure that for a price, we will be a most hospitable host in guiding vessels through our passageway. As long as no one feels they have any ownership over it other than Canadians, we'll get along just fine.
Now we have peopple talking about marking our territory in the North by building this and that. Whose taxes are going to pay for it? As for providing more education funding for the Inuit, I could fully agree to that. But to build a gigantic Northern Phalinx hovering a few hundred feet high just to mark our territory is beyond ridiculous.
If we have a legitimate claim to the North, I'm sure the international community would grant it. If, however, our only legitimate claim is the proliferation of giant phalinxes across the Northern horizon with no objective other than to claim territory, I doubt that would hold much water in any international decision.
I don't want to be paying high taxes to the military all my life on some spurious Northern claim. Where people actually live, it's clear that that is Canadian territory as long as those locals wish to remain within Canada, and we certainly have a responsibility to provide the necessary educational funding for quality schools in the North. And that would be a legitimate humanitarian development.
To be building up the Canadian military just to try ot advance a territorial claim is wasteful, pointless, and stinking of pure nationalism.
If we have a legitimate claim to the North, I'm sure the international community would grant it. If, however, our only legitimate claim is the proliferation of giant phalinxes across the Northern horizon with no objective other than to claim territory, I doubt that would hold much water in any international decision.
I don't want to be paying high taxes to the military all my life on some spurious Northern claim. Where people actually live, it's clear that that is Canadian territory as long as those locals wish to remain within Canada, and we certainly have a responsibility to provide the necessary educational funding for quality schools in the North. And that would be a legitimate humanitarian development.
To be building up the Canadian military just to try ot advance a territorial claim is wasteful, pointless, and stinking of pure nationalism.