How can we get rid of our sinfulness?

csanopal

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Dec 22, 2006
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2011 The charity of Christ is the source in us of all our merits before God. Grace, by uniting us to Christ in active love, ensures the supernatural quality of our acts and consequently their merit before God and before men. The saints have always had a lively awareness that their merits were pure grace.

I wish you wouldn't post rebuttals to AJ. They only result in a ten page essay that never comes to a point and is riddled with out of context Bible quotes, and further only illustrates, to me at least, how little the man knows about the Bible.
 
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csanopal

Electoral Member
Dec 22, 2006
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You have got some pretty interesting theories. Mind you, they have little or no basis on Christianity, clearly. Are you suggesting that because you have picked up your own bible and read it, that your knowledge of the faith is greater then all the Pope's and Cardinals and Bishops and Theologians of history? That over 1 billion catholic people are wrong? That 2,000 plus years of Church teaching is wrong? But you, and you alone, are right??? Talk about the sin of pride.

Of course he does! He is the only one on the planet that understands the Bible because God whispers in his ear, don't 'cha know. What would a silly old man like the Pope, or one of his priests, know about the Bible anyway?:)
 

sanctus

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A protestant is one who protested the teachings of the Catholic Church.
I proclaim what the bir all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.
My brother Sanctus, the scripture in question has to do with Jesus willing to die for us, His friends, and if we are going to believe in Him, we too must be willing to do the same.



Peace>>>AJ:love9:


Nice effort, but you have mis-quoted your references out of context to their intended meaning. It won't do, AJ, to pull verses out of the Bible unless you place them into the fullness of the context by which the books were written and intended to be understood. In short, with respect, your exegesis is faulty and incorrect regarding salvation.
 

sanctus

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Originally Posted by look3467

We are all predestined to heaven, but must go through hell first, in order to learn obedience: an example set fourth by Jesus Christ.


This is the most assinine comment I have ever read from you. It is utter and totally nonsense. If we were predestined for Heaven, what would be the need of faith, or prayer, or salvation in Christ? One could do anything and it would fine, as one is already predestined to Heaven.
 

Dexter Sinister

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It would appear, after 96 pages and over 1700 posts worth of inconclusive discussion and debate, that the correct answer to the OP's question is, "we can't." The Catholics at least have the clearest answer, but it doesn't work for everybody, and it's not permanent. You can be absolved one moment, step out of the confessional in a state of grace, have your eye fall on an attractive member of the opposite sex (or same sex, if you're so inclined) and you're back where you started, in a state of sin.

Simpler solution: reject the whole concept of sin and atonement as a dumb idea which has the sole purpose of inducing guilt and making people easier to manipulate. Rejecting it simplifies and clarifies a lot of issues.
 

sanctus

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That's neat. I never thought that things meant something. So probably everything in a liturgical setting means someting, right? For example, just a few things if you do not mind Sanctus, what about the stone altars in old churches-was there any reason they were made of stone? Or did it mean nothing and
I'm grasping for straws here?

Everything in a liturgical setting has a symbolism and a meaning attached to it. The pity is, some of the customs are so ancient most people take them for granted and have no idea why they exist at all or why they do certain things at certain times. The usage of stone on traditional altars is a reference to the tombs the original Christians worshipped in, mostly in the city of Rome. They would use the sarcophagus as their altar to perform the Mass on.

And what about the different colours on the priests or ministers robes, why do they change every so often and what do they represent?

Liturgical Colours

By a law of her liturgy the Church directs that the vestments worn by her sacred ministers, and the drapery used in the decoration of the altar should correspond in colour to that which is prescribed for the Office of the day. The colours thus sanctioned by the Church in connection with her public worship are called the liturgical colours. Here it will be enough to examine (1) their number; (2) the drapery and vestments affected by them; (3) their obligation; (4) their antiquity, and (5) their symbolism.
I. NUMBER

In the Roman Rite, since Pius V, colours are five in number, viz.: white, red, green, violet, and black. Rose colour is employed only on Lætare and Gaudete Sundays. Blue is prescribed in some dioceses of Spain for the Mass of the Immaculate Conception.
White is the colour proper to Trinity Sunday, the feasts of Our Lord, except those of His Passion, the feasts of the Blessed Virgin, angels, confessors, virgins and women, who are not martyrs, the Nativity of St. John the Baptist, the chief feast of St. John the Evangelist, the feast of the Chains and of the Chair of St. Peter, the Conversion of St. Paul, All Saints, to consecration of churches and altars, the anniversaries of the election and coronation of the pope and of the election and consecration of bishops; also for the octaves of these feasts and the Offices de tempore from Holy Saturday to the vigil of Pentecost; it is used for votive Masses when the feasts have white, and for the nuptial Mass; also in services in connection with the Blessed Sacrament, at the burial of children, in the administration of baptism, Holy Viaticum, and matrimony.
Red is used the week of Pentecost, on the feasts of Christ's Passion and His Precious Blood, the Finding and Elevation of the Cross, the feasts of Apostles and martyrs; and in votive Masses of these feasts. It is used on Holy Innocents if the feast occur on Sunday and always on its octave.
Green is employed in Offices de tempore from the octave of the Epiphany to Septuagesima, and from the octave of Pentecost to Advent, except on ember-days and vigils during that time, and on Sundays occurring within an octave.
Violet is used during Advent and from Septuagesima to Easter, on vigils that are fast days, and on ember-days, except the vigil of Pentecost and the ember-days during the octave of Pentecost. Violet is also used for Mass on rogation-days, for votive Masses of the Passion and of penitential character, at the blessing of candles and of holy water. The stole used in the administration of penance and of extreme unction and in the first part of the baptismal ceremonies must be violet.
Black is used in offices for the dead, and on Good Friday.
II. AFFECTED VESTMENTS

The drapery and vestments affected by the law of liturgical colours are (a) the antependium of the altar, and as a matter of appropriateness, the tabernacle veil; (b) the burse and chalice veil; (c) maniple, stole, chasuble, cope, and humeral veil; (d) maniple, stole, tunic, and dalmatic of the sacred ministers, and also the broad stole and folded chasuble when employed. All these must correspond with the rules prescribing the use of each colour. The rubrical prescriptions regard the main or constitutive portion of each vestment, so that the borders or other ornamental accessories do not determine the quality of colour. Neither does the lining, but the Roman practice is to have it in harmony with the vestment itself, yellow however being generally adopted instead of pure white.
III. OBLIGATION

The obligation of using any particular colour begins with the First Vespers of the Office of which it is characteristic, or with the Matins if the Office has no First Vespers, and ceases as soon as the following Office begins. Vestments made of pure cloth of gold may be employed for red, white, and green colours (Decret. Authent., nn. 3145, 3646, ed. 1900); cloth of silver may be used instead of white. Multicoloured vestments cannot be used except for the predominant colour.
IV. ANTIQUITY

Benedict XIV (De Sacro Sacrificio Missæ I, VIII, n. 16) says that up to the fourth century white was the only liturgical colour in use. Other colours were introduced soon afterwards. Innocent III (d. 1216) is among the first to emphasize a distinction. He mentions four principal colours, white, red, green, black (De Sac. Alt. Mys., I, lxv) as of general use, and one, viz. violet, as occasionally employed. This latter was regularly used from the thirteenth century. An "Ordo Romanus" of the fourteenth century enumerates five. Between the twelfth and sixteenth centuries blue and yellow were common but they may not be used without very special authorization (Cong. of Rites, Sept., 1837).
V. SYMBOLISM

Outside of Rome uniformity of observance was effected in the second quarter of the nineteenth century by the abrogation of other uses. In the Western Church only the Ambrosian Rite (q.v.) retains its peculiar colours. Most of the Oriental rites have no prescribed liturgical colours. The Greek Rite (q.v.) alone has a fixed usage but even among them it is not of strict obligation. The Ruthenians follow the Roman regulation since 1891. The variety of liturgical colours in the Church arose from the mystical meaning attached to them. Thus white, the symbol of light, typifies innocence and purity, joy and glory; red, the language of fire and blood, indicates burning charity and the martyrs' generous sacrifice; green, the hue of plants and trees, bespeaks the hope of life eternal; violet, the gloomy cast of the mortified, denotes affliction and melancholy; while black, the universal emblem of mourning, signifies the sorrow of death and the sombreness of the tomb.
 

sanctus

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It would appear, after 96 pages and over 1700 posts worth of inconclusive discussion and debate, that the correct answer to the OP's question is, "we can't." The Catholics at least have the clearest answer, but it doesn't work for everybody, and it's not permanent. You can be absolved one moment, step out of the confessional in a state of grace, have your eye fall on an attractive member of the opposite sex (or same sex, if you're so inclined) and you're back where you started, in a state of sin.

Simpler solution: reject the whole concept of sin and atonement as a dumb idea which has the sole purpose of inducing guilt and making people easier to manipulate. Rejecting it simplifies and clarifies a lot of issues.


But if we reject sin, or wrong-doing, we therefore must permit behaviour that is harmful to either our own selves, or to others. Even countries do not permit us to break the law because they acknowledge that criminals won't stop breaking them. Every organization, spiritual or otherwise, must follow a geneal set of rules of behaviour for its membership.
 

sanctus

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It would appear, after 96 pages and over 1700 posts worth of inconclusive discussion and debate, that the correct answer to the OP's question is, "we can't." The Catholics at least have the clearest answer, but it doesn't work for everybody, and it's not permanent. You can be absolved one moment, step out of the confessional in a state of grace, have your eye fall on an attractive member of the opposite sex (or same sex, if you're so inclined) and you're back where you started, in a state of sin.

s.

That is the process of life though, isn't it? Constantly seeking to change and better one-self,sometimes falling backwards, sometimes going ahead. The real challenge is not so much in the final outcome, but the manner in which one arrives at that oucome.
 

mapleleafgirl

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Dec 13, 2006
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Good thing I have lots of patience. Gov'ts succumb to public pressure. Ever hear of the 5th Estate, 20/20, W-5, polls, ombudsmen, etc? That dunderhead Martin flipflopped so much because of the polls he was like a fish outta water.
I think it's working. Pretty tough to tell though, because there are so many different cultures on the planet. It's gonna take a while.
Could also stop wars by getting people to mind their own business, too. If they all just lived and let live, there wouldn't be wars, but some folks just have to stick their noses where they don't belong.


thats the total problem. you got places like the usa who thinks everbody else on the planet s their personal business. instead of taking care of their own country, they got run into other peoples countries and make a big mess.
 

mapleleafgirl

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Dec 13, 2006
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Gotta love ya! Give yourself some time, you'll see one day that what I say will be confirmed by someone else.

Peace>>>AJ:love9:


i dont think so. i think youre a nice guy and that you really mean well, but i used to hear the same stuff yo write from my dad when he decided he was "born-again". all it made me feel was tense. all he used to do was quote the bible at us for everything. what good did it do when he deicded we were evil and left my mom and us alone? he wont even talk to me or my brother until we get "born-again" in his cult. i know im just young still, but i am very suspicious of people who claim to know god just because they read a bible. that is why the catholic church makes sense to me. however you look at it, youre talking 2000 years of rules and doctrines. if there is a god, and he is really watching over his church, the fact that the roman catholic church lasted so long is proof to me that that is the place god is taking care of.
 

darleneonfire

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That is the process of life though, isn't it? Constantly seeking to change and better one-self,sometimes falling backwards, sometimes going ahead. The real challenge is not so much in the final outcome, but the manner in which one arrives at that outcome.

A very true and wise observation!
 

look3467

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Dec 13, 2006
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You have got some pretty interesting theories. Mind you, they have little or no basis on Christianity, clearly. Are you suggesting that because you have picked up your own bible and read it, that your knowledge of the faith is greater then all the Pope's and Cardinals and Bishops and Theologians of history? That over 1 billion catholic people are wrong? That 2,000 plus years of Church teaching is wrong? But you, and you alone, are right??? Talk about the sin of pride.

My relationship is directly with God in Jesus. No middle man. I am according to the word my own priest offering my own spiritual sacrifices unto God, and Jesus being my High Priest.
:read2:Heb 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
Heb 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;


Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Kings because we are lords over our flesh and priests because we offer spiritual sacrifices (Praises) unto God.

The flesh no longer rules our spirit, unless we allow it to.

:read2:Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

On that note: I rest. I know I am saved and sealed and will be delivered.

That is my confidence in God and in no man.

Peace>>>AJ:love9:









 

look3467

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How would you know what the Scriptures mean? Do you think pulling them out of context to support your individual attitudes makes it so? Well, so do millions of other heretics, excuse me, protestants. But since most come up with different meanings, we can see that not all of them can be correct.

:read2:2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

The bible though put together by the will of man, spoken by the will of man, were moved to do so by the Holy Ghost.

Therefore the word (Bible) is the inspired word of God.

:read2:2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

This book the bible is made plentiful available to the world and is worthy of praise and for instruction in righteousness.

Am I to ignore so great a word and depend on someone else to tell me what is correct?

NO. I will find out for my self, after all, it is my soul that is on the line, not anybody elses.

It would behoove everyone who cares about their own soul to seek out truths as pertaining: as to what our relationship is with God and just how we fit into the picture.

I am satisfied, content and secure in my belief, and nothing on this earth can dethrone me from the love of God which is in me.

I am sealed by the Holy Spirit of God yet in my flesh, and know the outcome of my soul after this life is over.

Can you say the same thing? If not, I dare say, you had better look into it, for you will find out that you might have missed out in the greatest of all blessing, and that is knowing God while yet in the flesh.

Peace>>>AJ:love9:

 

look3467

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Real Chritians, ie:Catholics, believe salvation is a process (we were saved, we are being saved, and we will be saved). We don't believe in eternal security (once saved, always saved), and we don't believe we are saved by faith "alone." The Bible says we are saved by faith, by grace, by works, by Baptism, by obedience, by endurance, and by love. The Bible also speaks about salvation in the past, present, and future tenses, so it is not a one-time event.

Yes, you have it right to a point. According to all scripture which is in harmony with this one verse::read2: Phi 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Grants us salvation as a free gift: Now, that we have it, work out of it as a show or declaration of your faith.
I am saved because He said so, and I will live according to His guidance.

You only know in part the history of the early Christians. They were persecuted for there faith in Jesus. To declare it in that arena was to do it in fear and in trembling because of the danger to their lives.

Today, there is no such fear or trembling, unless of course you are in a country who persecutes Christians; of which there still is.

But your faith in Jesus is sufficient for your salvation. You need not have good works to gain it, for it is freely given.

Jesus granted forgiveness to the women caught in adultery, and just told her, thy sins are forgiven, go and sin no more.

Salvation (Forgiveness) is given to us, lets take it and go and sin no more.

Let your work show the joy of your salvation. Work it out with the fruits of the Holy Spirit which is in you: :read2:Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
Gal 5:26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

Peace>>>AJ:love9:

 

look3467

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m_levesque

When God touches man's heart through the illumination of the Holy Spirit, man himself is not inactive while receiving that inspiration, since he could reject it; and yet, without God's grace, he cannot by his own free will move himself toward justice in God's sight.
I concur!

1996 Our justification comes from the grace of God. Grace is favor, the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call to become children of God, adoptive sons, partakers of the divine nature and of eternal life.
I concur again for that is in harmony with the scriptures.
The question I have for you is: How do we become children of God? Now or later? When?

2011 The charity of Christ is the source in us of all our merits before God. Grace, by uniting us to Christ in active love, ensures the supernatural quality of our acts and consequently their merit before God and before men. The saints have always had a lively awareness that their merits were pure grace.

The word saint means set apart. Upon becoming a child of God, we are set apart from the world as not being part of this world, but as saints!

All that you have quoted is in harmony with the bible as a whole, all except in actually becoming a son of God while still in the flesh.
And that only is, is because of a lack of understanding.



Peace>>>AJ:love9:
 

marygaspe

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All that you have quoted is in harmony with the bible as a whole, all except in actually becoming a son of God while still in the flesh.
And that only is, is because of a lack of understanding.



Peace>>>AJ:love9:

So let me see if I understand you correctly, The Catholic Church lacks understanding about salvation and Christ?? The Pope is lacking understanding, but you have it right? I'm sorry, between what you say and what the Pope says, my vote is for the Pope. He is the Vicar of Christ
and you're just some guy on the internet reading a Bible, after all:)
 

look3467

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Of course he does! He is the only one on the planet that understands the Bible because God whispers in his ear, don't 'cha know. What would a silly old man like the Pope, or one of his priests, know about the Bible anyway?:)

The word of God is being presented unabridged directly from the bible, as inspired by the Holy Spirit.
The onus is on you to prove me wrong.

Go search the scriptures. :read2:2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

May your life be enriched and blessed as you seek the Lords will.

Peace>>>AJ:love9:
 

marygaspe

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Jan 19, 2007
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The word of God is being presented unabridged directly from the bible, as inspired by the Holy Spirit.
The onus is on you to prove me wrong.

Go search the scriptures. :read2:2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

May your life be enriched and blessed as you seek the Lords will.

Peace>>>AJ:love9:

Like I already said, I'm sorry, but I'll have to assume that the Pope knows just a little bit more about God, salvation and the Bible. He better, anyway:)
 

look3467

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So let me see if I understand you correctly, The Catholic Church lacks understanding about salvation and Christ?? The Pope is lacking understanding, but you have it right? I'm sorry, between what you say and what the Pope says, my vote is for the Pope. He is the Vicar of Christ
and you're just some guy on the internet reading a Bible, after all:)

If Jesus via His Holy Spirit deals with you directly, what need is there for anybody on earth to deal through?
Jesus said, I am the way, no man can come to the Father except through me.
Was He saying a fib? Absolutely not!
What keeps you from talking directly to God?

If you were marooned on an island without hope, could you still communicate with God?
Or would you be lost without the church?

Jesus would be there with you till the end.

Peace>>>AJ:love9: