How can we get rid of our sinfulness?

[Niflmir]

Ahhh, how very true. You "hit the nail on the head", so to speak. Most of the Scriptural quotations used by our non-Catholic friends are generally totally out of context. That is another issue with thise type of "sola scriptura" approach to faith, that each reader seems to think each verse means something in and of itself particular to that readers' expectations. A rather unsound foundation to build a theology around, in the opinion of the Church.

So as regards theology, I have a generally good view of it. On the whole it generates good people who want to do good in the world, and generally what they think of as good, I agree with. But sometimes, there is some particular quote somewhere that forbids or allows some thing that disagrees with what I know to be right.

An example would be the homosexual rights issues. I am pretty sure that it doesn't explicitly state that all homosexuality is wrong, but there are a lot of people who say just that. Also the teaching of creation might not be a big issue in Canada where Catholics are dominant, but south of the border it causes a hay-day.

 

[Niflmir]

And just a side-note of trivia for those who give a darned, if you ever wondered why there are two lit candles on an altar, it is because the two candles represent the two natures of Christ-human and divine. And on High Altars, the six candles represents the six days of creation.

That is some neat trivia. I never knew that, and never thought to question the significance.

 

[look3467]

Originally Posted by L Gilbert file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/OWNER%7E1.ABE/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msohtml1/01/clip_image001.gif
Perhaps people think that, but then he turns right back around and starts talking people outta their money again in another evangelistic show.

Yep. So which way is the right way?

Which are? I figure I'm pretty "blessed" by having what I have around me - good family and good friends.

Um, this part is a bit confusing, AJ. So if you performed some sort of minor infraction and I a profoundly despicable act, the "punishment" would be the same for both of us? All I can say is that this scenario would really suck in your case, or I'd get off with a slap on the wrist. That hardly sounds fair to me.

Indeed you are blessed my friend. And I’m glad you recognize that fact. For that shows concern for those around you.

As for human behavior, which is the point of contention between those who desire justice on the religion side, and for those who desire justice on the non-religious side, I have this to say.

Spiritually speaking, God has made provisions for our souls. This provision made, no man could do; except God did it Himself.
It has to do with the spiritual end of our existence. We being created the first time, (meaning made into flesh by God) created a situation for us that was out of our realm of correction.
We were subjected unwillingly to the flesh, by being born into the flesh. That: in its self brought separation from God which is by definition death to the soul.

Yes, we have life in the flesh, but it is a life of its own and by definition, sons of Adam.
This term “sons of Adam” indicates separation from God, but yet alive in the flesh.

I am trying to make a distinction between the two “sons of Adam” and the “Sons of God”.
In explanation of the spiritual side, as being taken care of only by God is this: Because of separation (Death) God Himself bridges the gap between heaven and earth, and gives us all the gift of life again.
Thereby, giving us the opportunity to experience the flesh with all its lusts, and being Sons of God as well. (Key to understanding: understand what just said)
The penalty of spiritual death has being eliminated by God in the Body of Jesus for “all” mankind.
Isa 28:18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.

Rev 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
OK, now hopefuly I have made the case, I hope for the spiritual side of it, lets look at the earthly side of it.

Jesus said that He eliminated death and hell in His word.
But we still die, and we still experience hell.
So what changed? Only the spiritual end of changed.

The verse that says: “Whatever we sow, that shall we also reap” is true to human behavior apart from the spiritual end .

Using Hitler for the extreme end and say one who stole a purse from an old lady, both must meet the demands of human justice.
This are laws that are instilled in us to create for our selves. (Self government)

The bible says: Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Why? Because the spiritual end of things God has taken care of Himself. The Ten Commandments are the requirements that the spiritual end exacted of mankind of which were to harsh to conform to for salvation.

God understood this, there by He Himself came down in the form of human flesh, performed for us the requirements of the His Ten Commandments and liberated us from them.
The Ten Commandments are as a guide for our spiritual living as these are the things which God prefers for us to follow.
The ten are condensed into two commandments after Jesus had fulfilled them for us, and gave us the two: Love God with all our mind, heart and soul, and the second is like unto the first, love thy neighbor as thy self.

All the laws are contained in these two.

We are all predestined to heaven, but must go through hell first, in order to learn obedience: an example set fourth by Jesus Christ.

Love is made perfect through the furnace of hell (fiery furnace: goal is made pure) when our good works are sincere. They are equal to gold tried in the fires of earth hell and refined into pure gold.
But of our works, bad behavior, equal to wood and stubble, when tried by earth’s hell fire, will burn up and we will suffer loss.

So, what shall it be? Our works, of what sort shall they be? If wood, they will burn up, and suffer loss, and if gold, then it will be refined and rewarded.

That is why, God says, love your enemies, for they too, are as equal as any of us in His sight. After all, He redeemed us all and lost none.

Hope this opens up a new avenue of thinking for some of you who have never seen it put this way.
But as it is, there will be some who would crucify me to the stake for what I said.

Gotta think with the heart first, because there is where the spiritual end comes in and revives us as sons of God. Born from His Spirit to live just and free from the hold of this worlds power and dominion.

No church, no organization can exact anything from us because we know we are free.

Free to love God and neighbor without regulations, rules and or reservations.

Peace>>>AJ:love9:

 

[look3467]

That is some neat trivia. I never knew that, and never thought to question the significance.

Interesting notation! How about:
Spiritual/fleshly = marriage = becoming one = a living soul.

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.


Peace>>>AJ:love9:

 

[look3467]

maybe, but whats funny is the more i read your posts the more it convinced me the catholic church made more sense. your just pulling ideas out of your ass. i like you, but some of your ideas are totally, but totally, wacked.

Gotta love ya! Give yourself some time, you'll see one day that what I say will be confirmed by someone else.

Peace>>>AJ:love9:

 

[sanctus]

An example would be the homosexual rights issues. I am pretty sure that it doesn't explicitly state that all homosexuality is wrong, but there are a lot of people who say just that. Also the teaching of creation might not be a big issue in Canada where Catholics are dominant, but south of the border it causes a hay-day.

By "it" I assume you mean the Bible. Or is it the magisterium you speak of? Either or, both are in accordance. nothing states that having homosexual inclinations is in and of itself "Wrong", but homosexual behaviour is always sinful. For that matter, all sexual behaviour outside the state of Matrimony is sinful. There is no conflict in the Church between evolution and creation. This seems to be a particular issue with fundamentalists though, and again illustrates their inability to undertand the Scriptures.

 

[sanctus]

No church, no organization can exact anything from us because we know we are free.

Free to love God and neighbor without regulations, rules and or reservations.

Peace>>>AJ:love9:

What in the name of God was all this in favour of? I read it many times and could not even discern a glimpse of what the heck you were writting about. Do you think you might try a shorter, more concise version to indicate whatever the point was you were trying to make?

 

[Cannuck]

I take issue anytime somebody says..."Jesus said". In actual fact, the writers of the Bible claimed that Jesus said. This may appear to be nit-picking but the reality is, it all depends on if you believe the Bible is "THE" word of God. I do not.

Personally I believe that most religions have created God in their own image. I seriously doubt that God needs anything from me. People who believe in a God that is so petty, vain and egotistical that he requires my obedience or else really are "children of a lessor God. I don't believe my God has separated from me, nor does he require anything from me. That would make him "needy". Since my God is all encompassing, he needs nothing

 

[canadarocks]

Oh, I see. Yes, on the surface that is certainly what it seems. A bit of a mystery that we are not able to understand. Look at it another way, after centuries of sending us prophets to reconcile us with God, He finally selected the most intimate way to re-connect with us by coming to earth in the flesh. To do so, He knew He would have to cater to our abilities to relate the event to teachings on same in the Old Test., so He choose a woman to be His earthly mother, and joined into the fullness of humanity, and yet still was God. One man, two natures. And just a side-note of trivia for those who give a darned, if you ever wondered why there are two lit candles on an altar, it is because the two candles represent the two natures of Christ-human and divine. And on High Altars, the six candles represents the six days of creation.

That's neat. I never thought that things meant something. So probably everything in a liturgical setting means someting, right? For example, just a few things if you do not mind Sanctus, what about the stone altars in old churches-was there any reason they were made of stone? Or did it mean nothing and
I'm grasping for straws here? And what about the different colours on the priests or ministers robes, why do they change every so often and what do they represent?

 

[look3467]

What in the name of God was all this in favor of? I read it many times and could not even discern a glimpse of what the heck you were writing about. Do you think you might try a shorter, more concise version to indicate whatever the point was you were trying to make?

The point is that there are two distinct realms to our lives.
The spiritual: and the earthly realms.
The spiritual is taken care of by God.
The earthly is taken care of by man.

Spiritual separation was God made. Spiritual reconciliation is God made.
We had absolutely nothing to do with that.

Behavior is subject to our earthly laws and justices.

Peace>>>AJ:love9:

 

[canadarocks]

I take issue anytime somebody says..."Jesus said". In actual fact, the writers of the Bible claimed that Jesus said. This may appear to be nit-picking but the reality is, it all depends on if you believe the Bible is "THE" word of God. I do not.

Personally I believe that most religions have created God in their own image. I seriously doubt that God needs anything from me. People who believe in a God that is so petty, vain and egotistical that he requires my obedience or else really are "children of a lessor God. I don't believe my God has separated from me, nor does he require anything from me. That would make him "needy". Since my God is all encompassing, he needs nothing

You don't like people claiming that the bible is "Jesus said", but He is now YOUR God.

 

[look3467]

I take issue anytime somebody says..."Jesus said". In actual fact, the writers of the Bible claimed that Jesus said. This may appear to be nit-picking but the reality is, it all depends on if you believe the Bible is "THE" word of God. I do not.

Personally I believe that most religions have created God in their own image. I seriously doubt that God needs anything from me. People who believe in a God that is so petty, vain and egotistical that he requires my obedience or else really are "children of a lessor God. I don't believe my God has separated from me, nor does he require anything from me. That would make him "needy". Since my God is all encompassing, he needs nothing

There are some truths to what you said. But not the whole truth.
The bible is Gods message to us about His love for us. But you'd think we'd listen?
He sent His prophets to warn us about impending doom, and we killed them.
He sent His prophets to tell us all about Himself, and we killed them.
Then He sent His Son, and thought, surely they won't kill my Son, and we did.
By the way, there is a parable about just that.

God is love and He demonstrated it to us by His Son. He allowed us to take out our anger on His Son and He turned around and forgave us for it.

If that isn't love, what is?

Unless we open our hearts to His leading, we shall continue to improvise ways to reach God.
Tower of Babel ring a bell?

Peace>>>AJ:love9:

 

[csanopal]

The point is that there are two distinct realms to our lives.
The spiritual: and the earthly realms.
The spiritual is taken care of by God.
The earthly is taken care of by man.

Spiritual separation was God made. Spiritual reconciliation is God made.
We had absolutely nothing to do with that.

Behavior is subject to our earthly laws and justices.

Peace>>>AJ:love9:

What about clergy-is their behaviour subject to earthly laws too? and nuns? I am not so sure I agree with you that God has not control over our earthly lives.

 

[Cannuck]

You don't like people claiming that the bible is "Jesus said",

People can claim whatever they like but, since they weren't there at the time, they really can't claim that everything that was said and done in the Bible was actually said and done. They only believe it was said and done.

but He is now YOUR God.

Yes

 

[look3467]

What about clergy-is their behavior subject to earthly laws too? and nuns? I am not so sure I agree with you that God has not control over our earthly lives.

Absolutely! Every human being is subject to the laws us humans make. And then there are the ones which God provides as guides for our daily living.
God knows the power of the flesh, shouldn’t He? After all, it’s His design.

God’s laws provide protection against our selves because of the flesh.
His corrections or punishments if you will are always exacted on by humanity or by nature.
You climb a tall tower and say, God saves me and jump, guess what? Nature says, nothing doing buddy, your coming down!
Same goes for everything else in the natural.

Now let’s look at the spiritual side. Yes, we all have a spirit that if we didn’t, we wouldn’t be alive. That spirit in us exists only to give life to the flesh: But is dead in relation to God. Hence the term: son of man.

Well then the question should be asked: How do I become a “son of God”? Well, God’s spirit must be born in me, or, for better explanation, I must be born again.
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Born again? You mean Jesus that I am dead and need to be born again? Yes! When I am born again, then “I am” the son of God, or for easier terms, Jesus in me.
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

By the word of God: And of incorruptible seed?

The corruptible seed is the flesh, the incorruptible seed is Gods Spirit.

The word (The bible) says that the latter is what we want.

Peace>>>AJ:love9:

 

[look3467]

People can claim whatever they like but, since they weren't there at the time, they really can't claim that everything that was said and done in the Bible was actually said and done. They only believe it was said and done.

Yes

One has to believe it by faith. And grace is extended by faith unto salvation.

:read2:Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Not of yourselves, but of God.

Peace>>>AJ:love9:

 

[Cannuck]

Not of yourselves, but of God.

Assuming, of course, that "yourselves" and "God" are different. I don't happen to believe that and I think that the idea that God is separate from us and we are separate from each other is one our biggest problems.

 

[L Gilbert]

Was I yelling??? Hmmm....nasty priest!

Big black bold font = yelling from what I gather.

Complete with new wife, who admittedly wears much less make-up then his former wife. Speaking of which, anyone know what Tammy Faye is up to these days?

Yeah, she was scary looking. Have no idea what kinda mischief she's into; no interest either.

 

[L Gilbert]

the six candles represents the six days of creation.

Wow!!! One woulda thought they'd have burned out by now.

 

[L Gilbert]

So as regards theology, I have a generally good view of it. On the whole it generates good people who want to do good in the world, and generally what they think of as good, I agree with. But sometimes, there is some particular quote somewhere that forbids or allows some thing that disagrees with what I know to be right.

An example would be the homosexual rights issues. I am pretty sure that it doesn't explicitly state that all homosexuality is wrong, but there are a lot of people who say just that. Also the teaching of creation might not be a big issue in Canada where Catholics are dominant, but south of the border it causes a hay-day.

It sure did. Personally, I see nothing wrong with the hypothesis of creation itself as a means of introduction to the bible's fantastic stories so that one could get used to not taking things literally.