Hiroshima and Nagasaki

[earth_as_one]

I'll ask again...

Did the Japanese take all steps neccessary to avoid further suffering of their civillians?

No they did not. But I can distinguish between Japan's leaders and military who committed war crimes and crimes against humanity and Japanese civilians who for the most part had no part in these events.

What is justice in the case of murder? Is executing the killer enough, or does their crime also justify executing their friends and family?

 

[EagleSmack]

No they did not. But I can distinguish between Japan's leaders and military who committed war crimes and crimes against humanity and Japanese civilians who for the most part had no part in these events.

What is justice in the case of murder? Is executing the killer enough, or does their crime also justify executing their friends and family?

Then the responsibility of continuing a war that was clearly lost, a war that they initiated, and the continued suffering of their people clearly rests on the shoulder of the Japanese government.

There is no guilt on the part of the Americans for ending a war as they chose to end it.

 

[CDNBear]

No they did not.

Full stop. The rest of your post is your typical caveat.

Then the responsibility of continuing a war that was clearly lost, a war that they initiated, and the continued suffering of their people clearly rests on the shoulder of the Japanese government.

I know I'm going to open a whole new can of worms here, but to be honest, the US kind of started it with the blockade of Japan.

An act of war.

 

[EagleSmack]

I know I'm going to open a whole new can of worms here, but to be honest, the US kind of started it with the blockade of Japan.

An act of war.

There was no blockade, we refused to sell oil to them. An oil embargo is not a blockade.

In 1941, our navy was in no condition to blockade the Japanese homeland even if we wanted to.

 

[earth_as_one]

ES, I'm not judging US leaders. Given the number of people dying on a daily basis, ending the war as quickly and decisively as possible would save lives. I read that US leaders considered the demonstration option but rejected it.

 

[CDNBear]

There was no blockade, we refused to sell oil to them. An oil embargo is not a blockade.

In 1941, our navy was in no condition to blockade the Japanese homeland even if we wanted to.

You're so right, my humblest...

 

[EagleSmack]

ES, I'm not judging US leaders. Given the number of people dying on a daily basis, ending the war as quickly and decisively as possible would save lives. I read that US leaders considered the demonstration option but rejected it.

I am sure there were all kinds of options on the table. The bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was the option they chose but not before they offered Japan a way to end the suffering of their people.

 

[earth_as_one]

There was no blockade, we refused to sell oil to them. An oil embargo is not a blockade.

In 1941, our navy was in no condition to blockade the Japanese homeland even if we wanted to.

The U.S. placed an embargo on Japan by prohibiting exports of steel, scrap iron, and aviation fuel to Japan, due to Japan's takeover of northern French Indochina. Later, the U.S., Britain, and the Netherlands froze Japanese assets. This prevented Japan from buying oil, which would, in time, crippled its army and made its navy and air force completely useless.

An embargo is an act of war. The attack on Pearl Harbor should not have been a surprise. Japan needed oil to keep their war machine going. To do that they needed to seize control of the oil fields in South East Asia. To do that, they needed to neutralize the US Pacific fleet. To do that, they attacked pearl harbor.

It was a mistake for the US not to go on full war alert as soon as the US announced their embargo.

I am sure there were all kinds of options on the table. The bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was the option they chose but not before they offered Japan a way to end the suffering of their people.

Also, if you read some of my firsts post in this thread, you'll see where I referenced that the US knew the Japanese were playing for time and had no intention of surrendering in July 1945. The Americans just couldn't reveal that they knew, otherwise they'd reveal how they knew.

 

[CDNBear]

The U.S. placed an embargo on Japan by prohibiting exports of steel, scrap iron, and aviation fuel to Japan, due to Japan's takeover of northern French Indochina. Later, the U.S., Britain, and the Netherlands froze Japanese assets. This prevented Japan from buying oil, which would, in time, crippled its army and made its navy and air force completely useless.

An embargo is an act of war. The attack on Pearl Harbor should not have been a surprise. Japan needed oil to keep their war machine going. To do that they needed to seize control of the oil fields in South East Asia. To do that, they needed to neutralize the US Pacific fleet. To do that, they attacked pearl harbor.

It was a mistake for the US not to go on full war alert as soon as the US announced their embargo.

Remember that PM I sent you ES?

Forget about it...

 

[EagleSmack]

An embargo is an act of war.

STOP! Please stop!

An embargo is NOT an act of war. A blockade IS an act of war.

Also, if you read some of my firsts post in this thread, you'll see where I referenced that the US knew the Japanese were playing for time and had no intention of surrendering in July 1945. The Americans just couldn't reveal that they knew, otherwise they'd reveal how they knew.

Yes and the Japanese wanted the Soviets to intercede as well and the long shot was to get them to be an ally of Japan and help fight the Americans.

Remember that PM I sent you ES?

Forget about it...

Jimminy CRICKETS!

 

[CDNBear]

Jimminy CRICKETS!

What can I say, I've perfected it, it's like an art form now.

 

[earth_as_one]

STOP! Please stop!

An embargo is NOT an act of war. A blockade IS an act of war.




Yes and the Japanese wanted the Soviets to intercede as well and the long shot was to get them to be an ally of Japan and help fight the Americans.



Jimminy CRICKETS!

Sorry you are correct. An Embargo is not an act of war. On the other hand it was extremely provocative. This was an act of war:
Nicaragua v. United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

How about seizing Japan's foreign assets and preventing them from being able to buy oil? Was that an act of war?

Either way, the Japanese interpreted US actions as hostile and aggressive. I stand by my statement that Americans should have anticipated a Japanese attack.

 

[EagleSmack]

Sorry you are correct. An Embargo is not an act of war. On the other hand it was extremely provocative. This was an act of war:
Nicaragua v. United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Start a thread on it then. We both know it has no place in this thread except to deflect from your error.

How about seizing Japan's foreign assets and preventing them from being able to buy oil? Was that an act of war?

Nope.

Either way, the Japanese interpreted US actions as hostile and aggressive. I stand by my statement that Americans should have anticipated a Japanese attack.

I know, those poor Japanese, how could they create the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere under the rule of the Japanese Emperor with those pesky Americans.

We did anticipate, just looked the wrong way.

Either way, we nuked them and won.

 

[Risus]

Either way, the Japanese interpreted US actions as hostile and aggressive. I stand by my statement that Americans should have anticipated a Japanese attack.

I agree, the yanks were caught with their pants down...

 

[earth_as_one]

ES, are you claiming it was the American plan all along to piss off the Japanese war machine repeatedly and then park all your destroyers in a narrow harbor where they could be easily found? I'd have never considered that ploy.

BTW ES, I'm glad the Allies won that war.


Belligerents

Major Allied combatants[nb 1][2]
United States
* Philippines Commonwealth of the Philippines
China
United Kingdom
* British India
Australia
Soviet Union
Netherlands
* Netherlands Dutch East Indies

Major Axis combatants[nb 2]
Empire of Japan
* Manchukuo
* Republic of China-Nanjing Wang Jingwei regime
* Provisional Government of Free India
Thailand Thailand

Pacific War - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[EagleSmack]

ES, are you claiming it was the American plan all along to piss off the Japanese war machine repeatedly and then park all your destroyers in a narrow harbor where they could be easily found? I'd have never considered that ploy.

I would love to know where I claimed that. LOVE IT!

Please direct me to that claim.

Are you POed because you got tooled ALL DAY by me?

BTW ES, I'm glad the Allies won that war.

Really? I doubt that very much.

 

[earth_as_one]

I would love to know where I claimed that. LOVE IT!

Please direct me to that claim.

Are you POed because you got tooled ALL DAY by me?



Really? I doubt that very much.

I was referring to this statement:

...We did anticipate, just looked the wrong way....

Perhaps I misinterpreted you as meaning you believe the US planned to provoke the Japan into a war. Was the decision to leave the destroyers in Peal Harbor where they could be easily taken out in a single Japanese attack was also part of the plan?

I don't mind when you correct me ES. I'm grateful that you shared your viewpoint and appreciate you keep the debate lively without getting insulting.

 

[EagleSmack]

I was referring to this statement:

I am not sure how you can say I claimed all of that from a few simple words.

Perhaps I misinterpreted you as meaning you believe the US planned to provoke the Japan into a war.

I said none of the sort.

Was the decision to leave the destroyers in Peal Harbor where they could be easily taken out in a single Japanese attack was also part of the plan?

Again, I do not know what US plan you are talking about. Again, I wish there were only destroyers in Pearl Harbor.

During the Battle of Midway the Japanese deployed four aircraft carriers and the US sank all four of them. Was that part of the Japanese plan? Of course not.

I don't mind when you correct me ES. I'm grateful that you shared your viewpoint and appreciate you keep the debate lively without getting insulting.

Fair enough but what is the reasoning of trying to say I am claiming such outlandish plans?

 

[Machjo]

I don't understand why the invasion of Japan was so crucial. Once the Navy was destroyed, the war was essentially over. Did we expect the Japanese to swim to to our shores with their spears?

Once the Japanese Navy was destroyed, an end of the war could have been declared. The only way the Japanese military could keep the population in line was to portray the allies as evil. Had the allies announced on Japanese radio that now that the Japanese Navy was destroyed and no longer a threat to other countries that the allies were pulling out, it would have been much harder to continue with that propaganda.

 

[lone wolf]

Maybe you should study up on ancient Japanese culture. They only really stepped into the modern world in the early 1900's.