Hijab Day...good idea or bad?

[earth_as_one]

I think hijabs and all head coverings should be banned from public.

Your face should never be covered in public, EVER... its to suspicious and scares people.

Muslims came to this country, abide by our culture and get rid of your hat things from our public life, or go back to where you came from if you want to keep your ``hijabs``

So much for Halloween.

Here are some other things you apparently want to ban:

So does your irrational fear and hatred extend to Nuns, Quakers and Amish head coverings, or do you just fear and hate Muslim head coverings?
You opinion also doesn't make sense when you live in a cold country like Canada:

These people are obviously wearing head coverings. Would you like to imprison these people because you fear their head coverings?
Also some types of jobs would be a lot more harmful if people weren't allowed to cover their faces.

I thought I lived in a tolerant country. The United States is an example of where irrational fear and hatred is being used to justify the elimination of fundamental freedoms and privacy. I would hate to see Canada follow the US.

These women should have the freedom to choose. In some countries they have no choice. I hope Canada never becomes one of those countries.

 

[sanctus]

So much for Halloween.

Here are some other things you apparently want to ban:

So does your irrational fear and hatred extend to Nuns, Quakers and Amish head coverings, or do you just fear and hate Muslim head coverings?
You opinion also doesn't make sense when you live in a cold country like Canada:

These people are obviously wearing head coverings. Would you like to imprison these people because you fear their head coverings?
Also some types of jobs would be a lot more harmful if people weren't allowed to cover their faces.

I thought I lived in a tolerant country. The United States is an example of where irrational fear and hatred is being used to justify the elimination of fundamental freedoms and privacy. I would hate to see Canada follow the US.

These women should have the freedom to choose. In some countries they have no choice. I hope Canada never becomes one of those countries.

BRAVO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[earth_as_one]

I believe in the Bible.. Do I expect others to? Heck no. Do I want its philosophy upheld? Well, that would of course depend which one, since even amongst Christians, we're not clear what that is. But, even assuming it's MY philosphy you take from it, then I'd want it upheld only so far as it can be without stripping someone else of their rights, such as their own freedom to choose their religion or lack thereof.

My brother crudely refers to this as the "Don't pee on my boots" philosophy. Do what you like as long as it doesn't infringe on the rights of others. Sounds reasonable to me.

 

[Curiosity]

Earth as one

A question for ya.... if the hijab represents a religious garment worn in dedication to that religion ... wouldn't the same garment on a non-believer such as a western woman be a mockery?

Doesn't the hijab have to mean something to be worn in sincerity? Religiously speaking I mean.

 

[Curiosity]

Sanctus / earth as one

Is someone questioning the right of the devout muslim women to wear the hijab? That would be their choice as in all clothing of religious men and women.

I don't agree with donning the garments even with the best intentions by western women. It seems demeaning to the beliefs of those who wear it for religious and cultural reason.

 

[MikeyDB]

What does everyone/anyone feel about the Sikh Stetson controversy?
If the "uniform" is the symbol of a federal agency...should people wanting to serve be required to wear the uniform as opposed to their headgear as "required" by their beliefs?
Why is it so important?
Is the issue that if we exercise tolearance for a believers choices in apparel that we are simultaneously approving of their religious dogma?
Exactly how "deep" is everyones undertanding when it comes to symbols as expression of ideology and belief?
If we can embrace the practices of some religions that regard rituals as bizarre (in my opinion) as the trasmutation of biscuits and juice into the body of an omnipotent being...to then be consumed ...

 

[Curiosity]

Mikey

Excellent point - I disagreed with the RCMP caving in like that. If a person wishes to belong to a policing unit of the government - the historically current uniform should be worn regardless of the individual's religious belief.

Headgear worn by the RCMP must be separate from religious doctrine...for to argue that one simple point - when would demand for change extend to the use of firearms for protection?

 

[tamarin]

And the stetson brouhaha had its echo in the marching orders given to Legion halls. The Legion had insisted no member should wear a hat inside their premises but the Sihk exception was forced upon them. But the glory days of the vets are over. Members aren't allowed to smoke in halls either. The PC machine is a hungry brute. What it all means down the road when Canadians are used to assuming the position for government edict could prove interesting.

 

[karrie]

Why is it necessary for western women to adopt the hijab to demonstrate acceptance of middle eastern women's dictated mode of dress when that mode is representative of the oppression of women as second class citizens who must 'hide in public'.

Personally Curio, I see no one protesting the Menonite women who work around here and wear headcoverings. No one makes them take them off at work. It seems to me to be an unfair attack on an Eastern religion, and the choices in religion some of these women have made. If it's okay for a woman to choose a Christian religion in which she must cover her hair, then it should be equally okay for her to choose an Eastern one as well.

You're probably right in saying that some of these women are facing oppression, but, you can't force someone into being 'free'. Making someone dress a certain way because you don't like the way they were being made to dress before is a funny little exercise in hypocricy as I see it.

"Now that you're here, you have to fit OUR ideal."

I like to think that these women will face the same transformation most religions seem to after a generation or two in Canada, and mellow out a bit. New generations see the freedom western women have, and they push for their freedoms too. Which, if they've won them for themselves, are freedoms they will value, rather than resent.

I think when western women are taking up the hijab in 'solidarity' with these women, it is to prove that point, that women are free to choose their own path, even if western society doesn't like the path they've picked. I don't know if I agree with it 100%, but, I also don't agree with those people who are proposing new 'laws' focused on banning immigrants from wearing their cultural and religious dress.

 

[Niflmir]

The biggest problem with the hijab does not concern the women who choose to wear it. It concerns the women who choose to take it off. Will they suffer social or physical abuse when they choose to take it off? That is the oppression that Curiosity is getting at (Is it Curiosity?). It is that attitude that needs to change, other wise they don't have a choice at all.

Given the choice between wearing a turban and complete and total social ostracisation and the possibility of physical assault, I think I would go with the turban. That's not a choice, more of an ultimatum.

What to do about it? I don't know, but the solution lies in attacking the patriarchical nature of their culture, not ostracising the women on both choices.

The RCMP issue, its a bad choice, in my humble opinion. I think they couldn't come up with a safety reason for forbidding it and so it had to be allowed. Instead of changing the dress code to allow all police to wear whatever headwear they like, they copped out and gave sikhs special privileges. When I see a police officer wearing a cowboy hat, I will be happy again.

On forcing immigrants to conform, where is CDNBear? If immigrants should be forced to conform, he can demand we all learn Irroquois language and custom. Who was their god of the sun? I think they would like to have the Christian heathens burned from their blessed Manitoban land.

 

[karrie]

The biggest problem with the hijab does not concern the women who choose to wear it. It concerns the women who choose to take it off. Will they suffer social or physical abuse when they choose to take it off? That is the oppression that Curiosity is getting at (Is it Curiosity?). It is that attitude that needs to change, other wise they don't have a choice at all.

I would agree, but again, forcing women to remove it only breeds contempt since, even though they may not be beaten for not wearing it, they will be uncomfortable around those men who 'oppress' them and expect them to wear it. This discomfort will breed resentment if it is not of their own doing.

I think time is the cure. Spending time in our country, seeing our freedom, the women will know their rights, know that they do not have to put up with being beaten, and will start to live as they please. I've seen it with other cultural issues, such as arranged marriages. I knew a young East Indian woman who dared to not accept her arranged marriage. She told me that back home (she was 10 when they moved), it would have meant a sound beating, and ending up married anyway. In Canada, she was able to stand up and say "no", and her father, knowing there was really not much he could do, was mad for a while, but resigned himself to it.

 

[earth_as_one]

Earth as one

A question for ya.... if the hijab represents a religious garment worn in dedication to that religion ... wouldn't the same garment on a non-believer such as a western woman be a mockery?

Doesn't the hijab have to mean something to be worn in sincerity? Religiously speaking I mean.

Mockery isn't illegal in Canada, otherwise "This Hour has 22 Minutes" would be banned.
http://www.cbc.ca/22minutes/

This issue is about freedom of choice and freedom of religion. Anyone who wants to wear a Hijab or Burka should be free to do so.

Even if a guy wants to wear a Burka, then that should be his choice too. Yes a guy wearing a Hijab would be making a mockery of Islam, but in Canada, mockery is legal. BTW, I think I know what I'm wearing for Halloween this year.

 

[earth_as_one]

Sanctus / earth as one

Is someone questioning the right of the devout muslim women to wear the hijab? That would be their choice as in all clothing of religious men and women.

I don't agree with donning the garments even with the best intentions by western women. It seems demeaning to the beliefs of those who wear it for religious and cultural reason.

Several European countries are placing restrictions on religious garb in public and in schools. Some of this is justified. For example:
ID like a driver's license should show a person's face.
Burkas should not be allowed while operating a lathe or driving motorcycle.

But people as a rule should be able wear Burkas, unless a reasonable case can be made for an exception. Irrational fear and prejudice are not good reasons for exceptions.

 

[earth_as_one]

I would agree, but again, forcing women to remove it only breeds contempt since, even though they may not be beaten for not wearing it, they will be uncomfortable around those men who 'oppress' them and expect them to wear it. This discomfort will breed resentment if it is not of their own doing.

I think time is the cure. Spending time in our country, seeing our freedom, the women will know their rights, know that they do not have to put up with being beaten, and will start to live as they please. I've seen it with other cultural issues, such as arranged marriages. I knew a young East Indian woman who dared to not accept her arranged marriage. She told me that back home (she was 10 when they moved), it would have meant a sound beating, and ending up married anyway. In Canada, she was able to stand up and say "no", and her father, knowing there was really not much he could do, was mad for a while, but resigned himself to it.

In Canada, assault is illegal. If a husband beats his wife because she refuses to wear a Burka, then he should be charged with spousal abuse.

We consider Canada to be a free country because people have freedom of choice within reasonable limitations of safety and security.

If Canada unreasonably denies women the right to wear a Burka, then Canada is no better than other nations which deny women the right to not wear a Burka.

 

[Curiosity]

Personally Curio, I see no one protesting the Menonite women who work around here and wear headcoverings. No one makes them take them off at work. It seems to me to be an unfair attack on an Eastern religion, and the choices in religion some of these women have made. If it's okay for a woman to choose a Christian religion in which she must cover her hair, then it should be equally okay for her to choose an Eastern one as well.

You're probably right in saying that some of these women are facing oppression, but, you can't force someone into being 'free'. Making someone dress a certain way because you don't like the way they were being made to dress before is a funny little exercise in hypocricy as I see it.

"Now that you're here, you have to fit OUR ideal."

I like to think that these women will face the same transformation most religions seem to after a generation or two in Canada, and mellow out a bit. New generations see the freedom western women have, and they push for their freedoms too. Which, if they've won them for themselves, are freedoms they will value, rather than resent.

I think when western women are taking up the hijab in 'solidarity' with these women, it is to prove that point, that women are free to choose their own path, even if western society doesn't like the path they've picked. I don't know if I agree with it 100%, but, I also don't agree with those people who are proposing new 'laws' focused on banning immigrants from wearing their cultural and religious dress.

Karrie - It was not my intent that women remove the hijab at all.... and no doubt the first generation of new people following those religious doctrines would feel terrible if required to remove it. I think you have misread my intention here. Additionally I was not aware there were groups trying to ban women from wearing any Islamic garments ... do you mean in Canada?

The point I was trying to make is for western women to adopt the gear - even in 'sisterhood' - seems a mockery. The hijab means very little to the western women - as if they had donned the nun's veils and were not Catholic - why would that be a positive move at all?

To be different and collectively joined in sisterhood can be shared by many without having to 'dress' for the occasion ... Christian, athiest, Jewish, Buddist, Hindu, whatever .... can't women show support without having to wear something which has no historical meaning to them as it does to the Islamic women.

I am not saying remove the hijab - I am saying to western women - support without trying to dress it up as 'proof' of your sincerity. We have enough trouble when to wear a simple cross at our necklines these days without someone getting steamed.

The focus to me would be: sisterhood and understanding of all groups - and if everyone dressed with a 'hijab of support' it seems phoney and childish ... but then to me support is done on a regular basis without brass bands and parades.... and certainly not in 'costume'.

 

[MikeyDB]

Curio...
And would you suggest as well that the pressure real or imagined..coming through TV sets that conditions thinking to particular conclusions...can be ignored?
I'm not trying to argue with you here Curiosity, but what sentiment gets more favorable exposure in western society..that you can regard dress as indicator a persons beliefs and political thinking...or that we are ready and willing to tolerate different people and their cultures?
Does the enormous popularity of gangsta-rap and the avelance of fads like tatooing and body-piercing arise spontaneously in society or is there an effort at homogonizing people?

 

[karrie]

The point I was trying to make is for western women to adopt the gear - even in 'sisterhood' - seems a mockery. The hijab means very little to the western women - as if they had donned the nun's veils and were not Catholic - why would that be a positive move at all?

I can see what you're saying... donning religious items for the sake of politicking is generally something that would irritate the heck out of me. But, in this case, it's had the effect they hoped, it's gotten people talking about the rights of Muslim women to wear their hijabs.

And for your question about who's trying to 'ban' hijabs, some schools and workplaces have been grumbling about not allowing the hijabs. To deny a Muslim woman a job or an education unless she is willing to abandon a symbol of her faith seems a drastic thing to do.

I'm still uncertain of my ultimate decision, is it good or bad, but I can see where they are coming from, and where it would be beneficial.

 

[L Gilbert]

Right. Aren't there better things to whine about than some people wearing scarves?

 

[Curiosity]

Mikey

I must be misreading you and Karrie - (gotta get some lunch into me I guess).
Take the most blatant dressing up - that of Gay Pride Parades. Does that get attention? You bet. Does it advance the Gay Pride Movement of acceptance into mainstream society ? No.

A group wearing the hijab for a day of celebration in a university setting will probably be written about and forgotten. What about the rest of the year? Why not organize group solidarity in more meaningful and longer lasting ways.

Islamic women describing a typical household day - showing the meals to be prepared, the dishes, how holy days are observed - in other words explaining their religious traditions - taking the mystery out of it.

Putting a hijab on for a day or ten days - means a temporary fix when one should be looking down the line of an exchange of support for Islamic trying to comprehend western ways (not adopting them but understanding them), and western women trying to the same in reverse.

 

[L Gilbert]

Good point, Curiosity.