Harper’s “Measured” Response

[Karlin]

I cant agree with Maggie, but Elevenevel seems reasonable.

Typical Fiberal Lefty Spin Doctor. Two Kidnapped Israelis wasnt the reason. That is a typical Fiberal Lie !

. Stephen Harper said the right thing and the fact that some civilians get killed is nothing new.

Israel and Harper are correct. Fiberals are not !

Maggie, thats almost weird it is so off track!!

Elevenelle , you have made a reasonable point, and I believe the resistance to your wise words are the product of paid pundits for the conservatives, internet plants, because no reasonable thinking person would be able to just ignore the overly harsh response by Israel.

how can they - Maggie, for eg., just ignore the fact that over 800 palestinians were kidnapped by Israel in the same time frame as four or five Israeli soldiers were taken by the Arabs? These palestinians are children, women mostly, which israel claims were arrested legitimetly for having weapons. So why not charge them, give them a trial date, and hear their defense? Its not just, as in justice. Its just cold.

This statement above by Maggie is the same old cr*p about Israel being too pure to hurt anyone who doesn't deserve it, and Arabs are allways wrong even if they are defending their lives. Its just the same old propaganidist claptrap being regurgitated by minions and believers of the warmongering right and their media puppets. "Keep the war going, whatever it takes" seems to be their motto.

I would frame the present mid-east battles as childish in their accusations and actions - BOTH SIDES:
"You did it", "No, you did it first", bla bla bla

That both sides are funded by big oil is not to be forgotten either.

In refusing to extract the Canadians in the line of fire, can we doubt that Harper was thinking that " Israel can do no harm" , and so is not taking whatever measures are available and instead waiting for a large-scale extraction of Canadians from Beruit?

K

 

[Shiva]

In refusing to extract the Canadians in the line of fire, can we doubt that Harper was thinking that " Israel can do no harm" , and so is not taking whatever measures are available and instead waiting for a large-scale extraction of Canadians from Beruit?

K

:roll: Not extracting the Canadians immediately probably has something to do with them being on the other side of the planet. Other countries have good militaries they can deploy, with strategic lift capability, something the former Liberal gov't refused to purchase saying we could always rent helicopters and ships from others when we need to deploy troops or move soldiers. Well, if they had purchased proper lift capability years ago, maybe we wouldn't be in the position now of having to wait until we can rent some ships from Cyprus!!! Cyprus of all places! But no, it's just a Conservative evil conspiratorial backing of Israel...right! :roll:

 

[fuflans]

:roll: Not extracting the Canadians immediately probably has something to do with them being on the other side of the planet. Other countries have good militaries they can deploy, with strategic lift capability, something the former Liberal gov't refused to purchase saying we could always rent helicopters and ships from others when we need to deploy troops or move soldiers. Well, if they had purchased proper lift capability years ago, maybe we wouldn't be in the position now of having to wait until we can rent some ships from Cyprus!!! Cyprus of all places! But no, it's just a Conservative evil conspiratorial backing of Israel...right! :roll:

Both the Americans and French had to rent ships to help evacuate their citizens from Lebanon. Anyway, even if the government had bought heavy lift ships earlier (which I believe they should have), they would be useless unless they were actually in the vincinity of Lebanon. I think you hit the mark when you bolded the 'other side of the planet'.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060718...AoUvioA;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

The article mentions that Canadians will begin evacuating tomorrow (Wednesday).

 

[Maggiemygosh]

The stupidity of lefties in Canada. Release Palestinian terrorists from jail? DUH ? Are you well? DUH ?

A few weeks ago Israel released a 19 year old Palestinian from jail and sent him home. The next day he came back to the Israeli side went to a market place and committed suicide killing 3 Israelis and injuring 12 more.

Yeah right you brainless lefty let all of those Palestinians out of jail so that they can kill Israeli's. Dumber than dumb !!!!

 

[Hotshot]

Re: RE: Harper’s “Measured” R

WOW.....

So I guess if oneday The Usa started to fire Rockets into Canada, You wouldnt want us to fight back?

Yes, we would march right into Washington and burn down the White House like we did in 1812!!

 

[Mogz]

Re: RE: Harper’s “Measured” Response

:roll: Not extracting the Canadians immediately probably has something to do with them being on the other side of the planet. Other countries have good militaries they can deploy, with strategic lift capability, something the former Liberal gov't refused to purchase saying we could always rent helicopters and ships from others when we need to deploy troops or move soldiers. Well, if they had purchased proper lift capability years ago, maybe we wouldn't be in the position now of having to wait until we can rent some ships from Cyprus!!! Cyprus of all places! But no, it's just a Conservative evil conspiratorial backing of Israel...right! :roll:

Both the Americans and French had to rent ships to help evacuate their citizens from Lebanon. Anyway, even if the government had bought heavy lift ships earlier (which I believe they should have), they would be useless unless they were actually in the vincinity of Lebanon. I think you hit the mark when you bolded the 'other side of the planet'.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060718...AoUvioA;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

The article mentions that Canadians will begin evacuating tomorrow (Wednesday).

Just to fan a few flames here, i'd like to point out that the United States Navy was forced to rent ships. If you head over to their website you'll see that 268 of their 281 Naval vessels are currently deployed or tasked. They're out of ships.

 

[fuflans]

Re: RE: Harper’s “Measured” Response

Just to fan a few flames here, i'd like to point out that the United States Navy was forced to rent ships. If you head over to their website you'll see that 268 of their 281 Naval vessels are currently deployed or tasked. They're out of ships.

And how many of those ships would even be useful in a situation like this? Presumably you wouldn't be able to evacuate many people on a frigate/destroyer/cruiser. You'd need something like an amphibious assault ship (Wasp or Tarawa class?) and I assume that those are pretty busy at the moment.

Edit: I just read your response in the other thread

 

[SaintLucifer]

Re: RE: Harper’s “Measured” R

Regardless of Harper deeming Israel's actions to be a "measured repsonse", these civilians would still have been killed.

Do you think Israel would have backed down if Canada had voiced it's disapproval?

Israel does not even know Canada exists. They could care less.

 

[SaintLucifer]

Re: RE: Harper’s “Measured” R

Regardless of Harper deeming Israel's actions to be a "measured repsonse", these civilians would still have been killed.

Do you think Israel would have backed down if Canada had voiced it's disapproval?

No, but it doesn't help the families of those Canadians killed that Harper did give his approval.

If you are going to blame my country's Prime Minister for a happenstance he had absolutely nothing to do with I would suggest you head out of my country never to return. That is an insult. If anyone is to blame for the deaths of those Canadians it would be Hezbollah's terrorists. Do not ever sit here in my country only to blame my government for the deaths of Canadians at the hands of others. You insult all Canadians when you do so.

 

[BitWhys]

Re: RE: Harper’s “Measured” R

Regardless of Harper deeming Israel's actions to be a "measured repsonse", these civilians would still have been killed.

Do you think Israel would have backed down if Canada had voiced it's disapproval?

No, but it doesn't help the families of those Canadians killed that Harper did give his approval.

If you are going to blame my country's Prime Minister for a happenstance he had absolutely nothing to do with I would suggest you head out of my country never to return. That is an insult. If anyone is to blame for the deaths of those Canadians it would be Hezbollah's terrorists. Do not ever sit here in my country only to blame my government for the deaths of Canadians at the hands of others. You insult all Canadians when you do so.

that's not the point. the point is now that "Steve" has picked his team any response to Israeli indescretions can only be tepid at best.

during a press conference in France today the twerp criticized a comment made by one of the greiving family members just after it happened. he didn't even know who said it, let alone what it meant.

 

[elevennevele]

Re: RE: Harper’s “Measured” R

Sure, keep it coming. I want everyone to see what types of people we have supporting indiscriminate warfare. I want people to see how hardline some are who support Harper and his taken position in this crisis.

Canada up till now has been respected throughout the world as a moderator of conflicts. This has been due to a perception of us having ‘balance’ when handling issues that allow us to bring different people to the table for dialogue. We are a country of multiculturalism. Of many different people from all over the world. We typically have been able to see fairness on both sides and fault on both sides.

The word out there is that we are now in the process of losing such respect because our government wishes to take an ideological lean.

I have done nothing here but state the wrongfulness of indiscriminate killing of innocent life. I have talked of suffering for Israelis, Lebanese, and Palestinians alike on these forums and have been attacked because I don’t just recognized one suffering. That being Israelis.

I watched how one Lebanese father was so happy to be back in Canada with his two daughters from vacationing at a hotel. He just looked Canadian, he spoke like a Canadian, and his daughters seemed very Canadian. If I saw them on the street, I wouldn’t have even known they were Lebanese.

What he had to say was that “Canada is the best”. Meanwhile his identity is being attack here by his fellow countrymen - Canadians - who feel justified to link him to terrorist groups by association. An association simply because his family is Lebanese and he and his daughters were in Lebanon during the conflict.

I don’t know how that isn’t prejudice.

 

[elevennevele]

Re: RE: Harper’s “Measured” R

If you are going to blame my country's Prime Minister for a happenstance he had absolutely nothing to do with I would suggest you head out of my country never to return. That is an insult. If anyone is to blame for the deaths of those Canadians it would be Hezbollah's terrorists. Do not ever sit here in my country only to blame my government for the deaths of Canadians at the hands of others. You insult all Canadians when you do so.

He is not “your” Prime Minister. He is “our” Prime Minister. This is not “your” country. This is “our” country. I did not blame him for the deaths. The article criticizes the consequences of the position he has taken, the statements he has made publicly.

And such statements are a green light for indiscriminate retaliation. The excess of it which has resulted in the loss of Canadian life, loss of innocent lives, and wanton destruction of both sides.

There are limits in warfare and retaliation. Overstepping certain limits result in crimes against humanity. If one does not agree then a case can be made for all sorts of atrocity as part of any retaliation or warfare. This is why there exists the Geneva Convention.

And as such, when war lacks sensibility it become a senseless war.

This mess won’t be fixed this way. Not by a bunch of “hot heads”.

 

[Colpy]

Re: RE: Harper’s “Measured” R

If you are going to blame my country's Prime Minister for a happenstance he had absolutely nothing to do with I would suggest you head out of my country never to return. That is an insult. If anyone is to blame for the deaths of those Canadians it would be Hezbollah's terrorists. Do not ever sit here in my country only to blame my government for the deaths of Canadians at the hands of others. You insult all Canadians when you do so.

He is not “your” Prime Minister. He is “our” Prime Minister. This is not “your” country. This is “our” country. I did not blame him for the deaths. The article criticizes the consequences of the position he has taken, the statements he has made publicly.

And such statements are a green light for indiscriminate retaliation. The excess of it which has resulted in the loss of Canadian life, loss of innocent lives, and wanton destruction of both sides.

There are limits in warfare and retaliation. Overstepping certain limits result in crimes against humanity. If one does not agree then a case can be made for all sorts of atrocity as part of any retaliation or warfare. This is why there exists the Geneva Convention.

And as such, when war lacks sensibility it become a senseless war.

This mess won’t be fixed this way. Not by a bunch of “hot heads”.

I have to say, I don't think the Israeli response has been "indiscriminate". Less than 300 dead after a week of shelling and air strikes speaks of restraint in my book.

I listened to an expert on CBC, and no pro-Israeli either, speak on the beginnings of this conflict. He said the actions of Hezbollah in attacking Israel in support of Hamas were intended to shame Arab nations for abandoning the Palestinians. What this individual pointedly left UNSAID was that if this is true, and it seems to make some sense, then Hezbollah's attempt to spur pan-Arabia into action leaves Israel absolutely no choice but to make VERY clear what the inevitable result of such action would be. Deterence is the name of the game.

Of course, the utter degradation of Hezbollah is the only acceptable conclusion to this crisis. They must be de-fanged.

Iran gives Hezbollah $100 MILLION in support per year! WOW!

 

[mabudon]

RE: Harper’s “Measured” R

Did anyone else catch Harper's comment yesterday?? his tune changed from "measured response" to "both sides should STOP what they are doing and try to get some negotiators to make some sort of compromise"
I was pretty happy to hear that- until he added "but Hizbollah IS the bad guy" which kinda marred it- the odd thing about the quick flip-flop is how quickly he acted to distance himself from the much more Israel-supporting tone he had just a week ago. I have a feeling that the "golden boy can do no wrong" image which seems prevalent in pretty much ALL our media outlest may be a bit more wishful thinking than actual facvt, which is good..... I truly wish that the statement I saw him deliver yesterday was "our 'official' response" from the get-go as lashing our wagons to either side at this point is madness, in my view, there's wrong on all sides pretty much and there's not much we can do since the trouble has DEEP roots.

I wouldn't say that Harper is "responsible" for the deaths, but he most certainly is responsible for making some pretty stupid comments- good thing it was only words which can be "clarified" or even recanted a LOT more easily than actions, I guess

 

[elevennevele]

Re: RE: Harper’s “Measured” R

If that is the case, then I hope our Prime Minister has been more naive up to this point than ideological which is what I’ve always feared of him.

That he took a very US stance originally because he didn’t know better and now is evolving/learning that Canada isn’t made up simply of a few ethnic groups, and that right and wrong isn’t so black and white. However, he can only change his tune so much at this point and backtrack without looking so apparently ridiculous or inexperienced.

Neither will he get off that easy when there is a pause crisis for Canadians to then start asking some serious questions of him and his leadership.

 

[BitWhys]

you'll know the focus group results are in when he leads with "I've been very clear..."

 

[mabudon]

RE: Harper’s “Measured” R

Oh I ain't letting him off the hook of accountability at ALL, I am simply pointing out that for those of us who were afraid that we as a country would go jumping right into the fires the US has created, there is a shred of hope.

if adding some sort of "distance" from official US positions (and then actually making sure to do so in the "back room" as well, not just at the dog-and-pony shows) is reallypart of the "new" Stephen Harper, it might not be as bad as I'd hoped, tho it could be a really sneaky trick too, as the change of spots could be seen by less politically savvy folks as genuine and become an argument all unto itself.. and it's not like he isn't a crafty fellow

 

[BitWhys]

fuck that

he's just tossing out soundbites for later reference and won't call for a "ceasefire" until Rice gives him the green light.

 

[elevennevele]

Re: RE: Harper’s “Measured” R

I have to say, I don't think the Israeli response has been "indiscriminate". Less than 300 dead after a week of shelling and air strikes speaks of restraint in my book.

How many of those 300, if it is that much, are the kidnappers? How much are just people caught unaware? Is it a fixed number?

How many innocent people are acceptable to destroy? How much destruction of infrastructure in Lebanon is warranted? Is it humane?

Is it humane because was there another alternative? Did Israel, when making the connection to Hezbollah, even try to contact the Lebanese government to see if they would help try to fix the situation? No. They didn’t even attempt any form of real diplomacy. They didn’t try other means. They used indiscriminate force as a first response.

Don’t think the wasting of life is going to improve Israel’s situation. Actions like this only breed sympathizers. Just like how the Iraqis are being turned into radical fractions by US policy of force and occupation.

If they had tried to contact the Lebanese government, and Lebanon helped, it would have helped marginalize Hezbollah in Lebanon and all this destruction may have been avoided. They didn’t even try. This approach of destruction will only breed the problems than, as you say, hope to de-fang.

No longer will we know if approaching the Lebanese would have worked.

 

[elevennevele]

Re: RE: Harper’s “Measured” R

Yep, Harper realizes his first approach/statements may have cost him politically so the latest in the news is that he’s now he’s planning a photo opt to save his image.

He’s going to fly to Cyprus, without any media around (besides his own photographers, I’m sure) so that he can personally fly some of the Lebanese back to Canada. What a change of tune.

It’s a really dirty thing when I think such fleeing Lebanese Canadians may now used as political prop by a politician who initially gave Israel uncritical acceptance of military actions that endangered their lives.

He didn't consider them to begin with but it's looking bad now.