Hamas attacks Israel

petros

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Out of the loop (?) or not down the rabbit hole?

Zionists, and the State of Israel, have been accused of plotting to expand Israel from the Nile to the Euphrates. This so-called 10 agorot controversy is named after the Israeli coin brandished by PLO chairman Yasser Arafat in 1988 as evidence for this accusation. The Bank of Israel denies this conspiracy theory since the coin is a replica of a historical coin dating from 37 to 40 BCE and the alleged "map" is actually the irregular shape of the ancient coin.

Conspiracy theorists have suggested the blue strips of the Israeli flag represent the Nile and Euphrates as the boundaries of Eretz Isra'el as promised to the Jews by Godaccording to religious scripture. This claim was at a time made by Yasser Arafat, Iran and Hamas. However, Danny Rubinstein points out that "Arafat ... added, in interviews that he gave in the past, that the two blue stripes on the Israeli flag represent the Nile and the Euphrates. ... No Israeli, even those who demonstrate understanding for Palestinian distress, will accept the ... nonsense about the blue stripes on the flag, which was designed according to the colours of the traditional tallit (prayer shawl) ..."…or not…
Today term "Greater Israel" is generally used among Israelis to refer to the territory of the State of Israel and the are internationally recognized as the Palestinian territories, which together form the combined territory of the former Mandatory Palestine minus Trans-Jordan (modern-day Jordan), which was already separated from Palestine by the British in the early 1920s. However, because of ambiguity and controversy surrounding the term, those areas are instead often referred to as the Land of Israel.

On September 14, 2008, Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, formerly of Likud, remarked that "Greater Israel is over. There is no such thing. Anyone who talks that way is deluding themselves", making this statement just two days before privately reaching out to the Palestinian President with a comprehensive plan that ultimately never was implemented.
Rabbit hole? So Jew Power and Religious Zionism isn't openly pushing for it?

You didn't look very hard did you?

Go beyond Wikipedia

See below
 

petros

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From 2022 pre Holocaustage

Itamar Ben-Gvir and the rise of the extreme religious right in Israel

By Freddie Holloway

Aggressive policing at Temple Mount (al-Haram al-Sharif) and escalatory rhetoric following Hamas rocket strikes from Gaza in early April have put Itamar Ben-Gvir, Israel’s ultranationalist national security minister, back in the spotlight. Who is he, and what factors have driven his rise?

Pictured smiling as he entered a meeting of a badly shaken cabinet early this month, the cheerful exterior of Itamar Ben-Gvir, Israel’s national security minister, is eloquent of his adept pragmatism, his powerful position in Netanyahu’s governing coalition, and his carefully managed media image.

Netanyahu’s commitment to support the establishment of a ‘national guard’ to deal with Arab disorder in Israel represents a key concession to Ben-Gvir from the embattled Prime Minister after he was forced to postpone his government’s flagship judicial reform proposals by a wave of mass protests and nationwide strikes, and following the mutiny and aborted dismissal of Yoav Gallant, his own defence minister.

It is also the latest in a series of controversies of Ben-Gvir’s making which have set alarm bells ringing amongst the Israeli opposition, Palestinians, much of the international community.

Since the 46-year-old leader of the ultranationalist, religious, right-wing party Otzma Yehudit (Jewish Power) assumed responsibility on 1 January 2023 for institutions such as the police and prison service, as well as patrols in the West Bank, he has stirred his base and outraged opponents by banning the display of Palestinian flags and visiting Temple Mount (al-Haram al-Sharif), which drew comparisons to Ariel Sharon’s notorious visit in 2000 which contributed to the Second Palestinian Intifada.

Aside from his considerable popularity – and commensurate infamy – Ben-Gvir’s career is so striking because it is starkly emblematic of how the religious Zionist right has successfully, if by no means smoothly, come into the political mainstream.

The key question which poses itself is how did a man who was deemed too dangerously radical to be permitted to do his military service, and who boasts a litany of criminal convictions for racism and similar offences to boot, come to be the high-ranking cabinet minister responsible for the very police force that viewed – and part of which arguably still views – him with such suspicion?

Shifting our focus from the man to his wider movement, the second – and more thorny – question is what are the underlying factors driving the unprecedented popularity of far-right and (broadly speaking) religious candidates, further polarising the Israeli political landscape?

The unprecedented success of far-right parties in in the elections of 1 November 2022, in which the Religious Zionist coalition – including Ben-Gvir’s own Otzma Yehudit, Bezalel Smotrich’s Tkuma (Religious Zionism) party, and Avi Maoz’s fervently anti-LGBTQ+ Noam party – obtained 14 seats in total, made them the third-largest grouping in the Knesset after Netanyahu’s right-wing Likud and Yair Lapid’s centrist Yesh Atid.

Together with the Haredi – ultra-orthodox – parties Shas (representing Mizrahim) and United Torah Judaism (representing Ashkenazim), the Religious Zionist coalition gives Netanyahu 64 deputies in the 120-seat Knesset, making for a slim majority but one with a strong right-wing and religious character.

Ben-Gvir’s ability to push for the post of national security minister in cabinet negotiations with Netanyahu is testament both to the strength of his electoral base and his willingness to formalise and expand the authority of far-right religious Zionists in the Israeli state.

However, this is the culmination of decades of operating outside mainstream political respectability, and in tense, both oppositional and tacitly symbiotic relationships with the institutions of the state.

Ben-Gvir’s cultivation of his media profile throughout his career has enabled him to forge a power base of supporters and reach a wide public.

Although some have justifiably cautioned against sweeping comparisons between Israeli extreme religious Zionists and the far-right in Europe and the USA, there are some significant areas of commonality in publicity strategies employed by Ben-Gvir and other far-right politicians.

Firstly, the generation of controversy is routinely employed by Ben-Gvir as a tool to gain media attention.

Prior to his provocative actions as a minister, this aim was advanced via publicity stunts such as his 2011 collaboration with the National Union MK Michael Ben-Ari to bring 40 Sudanese migrant workers to a luxurious swimming pool in Tel Aviv in what supportive media characterised as an attempt ‘to point out leftist hypocrisy’.

Such eye-catching ploys are somewhat reminiscent of tactics employed by other right-wing provocateurs, such as Trump’s campaign promise in 2016 to make Mexico pay for a ‘great wall’, and, on a larger scale, of Lukashenko’s exploitation of migrants at the Polish border as a political pawn in 2021.

Secondly, Ben-Gvir’s use of a range of different media, including both mainstream press and television, but also social media such as TikTok, have increased his exposure and connection with voters, outside the traditional public sphere of political broadcasting.

Thirdly, his often smiling, amiable, and slightly jocular public image, combined at other times with fulminating rhetoric and provocative incitement, has some echoes of styles of right-wing politics adopted by figures such as Trump and Farage which eschew decorum and offset their controversial opinions with a performative levity, though the context of violence and insecurity in Israel and the West Bank, and thus the consequences of incitement, are more extreme.

His 2019 plan to participate in a series of ‘Big Brother’, though unrealised, is indicative of his calculated self-image as someone who doesn’t take himself too seriously. Such a figure can appear to be more relatable and more of a ‘man of the people’, and has echoes of, for example, the half tongue-in-cheek posturing of Spain’s Vox party leader, Santiago Abascal, as a conquistador in a 2019 tweet.

Within and without the law

Ben-Gvir’s career as a lawyer has also been instrumental in enabling his political rise, forming a key bridge in his transition from being beyond the pale to enjoying greater respectability and substantial power within the state apparatus.

Though his previous convictions made his initial authorisation as a lawyer highly controversial, he and his Kahanist allies developed a strategy of working both within and outside the law, first as an activist, and later as a legal representative for Jewish settlers and extreme religious Zionists accused of crimes against Palestinians.

This included notorious cases such as the 2015 Duma arson attack in the West Bank, in which two Palestinian parents and their infant son were killed.

He thus provided extreme voices with a legal and political mouthpiece, boosting his profile and creating a niche as a more respectable, eloquent, and established arm of the Kahanist movement and its sympathisers.

See below
 

petros

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Violence and polarisation



Incitement to and the threat of violence also continue to play a major role in Ben-Gvir’s strategic repertoire, and that of his extreme religious Zionist political milieu.

The most explicit face of this is flagrant settler violence, such as that perpetrated in Hawara in February, which Bezalel Smotrich, currently serving as finance minister, appeared effectively to condone in his subsequent – and later retracted – comment that ‘the village of Hawara needs to be wiped out’, though by ‘the state of Israel’.

Ben-Gvir’s early involvement in incitement to violence is evinced in his youthful television interview in 1995 making a thinly veiled threat to Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin over the latter’s pursuit of the Oslo Accords – a threat which found a very real manifestation soon afterwards in Rabin’s assassination by Yigal Amir.

However, besides more explicit incitement to violence is a consistent theme of symbolic violence, to which Ruth Margalit alludes.

The promotion of martyr cults which glorify Jewish terrorists in which Ben-Gvir engaged as an activist have some similarities to the discourse of ideologically opposed extremist organisations such as Hamas with regard to Palestinian terrorists. This is reflected in his veneration of Baruch Goldstein, the perpetrator of the 1994 Cave of the Patriarchs massacre, via a (now removed) picture displayed in his home and even in his youth dressing as Goldstein at Purim.

Such performative, taboo-embracing actions again seek to generate controversy and attention, but also arguably shift the boundaries of acceptable, or at least practised, political discourse and behaviour, whilst also solidifying a base of supporters for whom extra-legal violence in the service of the ideal of Greater Israel is a real option.

Annual commemorations of Kahane, Ben-Gvir’s stated aim to ‘show who’s the landlord around here’, and explicit animosity towards Israeli-Arab politicians, are means of making Palestinians and Israeli Arabs feel unwelcome, subordinate, and threatened.

Ben-Gvir’s tactics of incitement and polarisation arguably give him an interest in encouraging violence, which tends to harden views and render more palatable extreme positions presenting themselves as the only defence against terror.

Perhaps ironically, this is potentially an interest shared with Palestinian militant factions diametrically opposed to Ben-Gvir, who are resorting to greater violence, and greater co-operation with each other, out of increasing disillusion with the Palestinian Authority and accommodation with Israel, and for whom an escalation in violence and subsequent reprisals are likely to bring more Palestinians round to the same opinion.

As Margalit identifies, periods of violence and instability have proved fertile for recruiting support for extreme religious Zionism amongst the scared, angry, and bereaved, and Ben-Gvir’s public profile was much boosted by his inflammatory role in the spring 2021 crisis, which saw outbreaks of violence in Jerusalem and other mixed cities, as well as in Gaza.

Furthermore, now Ben-Gvir is in government, the line between Jewish terrorism, a concept whose legitimacy Ben-Gvir has rejected, and state violence can be more easily blurred than ever.
 
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petros

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Now for the other fascist creep Smotrich.

Israeli minister's 'Greater Israel' remarks spark controversy​


Far-right Bezalel Smotrich claims Jerusalem would eventually extend to Damascus in Syria, in line with 'Greater Israel' ideology
Seyma Yigit

10.10.2024 - Update : 11.10.2024
Israeli minister's 'Greater Israel' remarks spark controversy

ANKARA

Israeli Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich sparked controversy with comments that suggested an expanded "Greater Israel" in a recent documentary.

Smotrich suggested that Israel's future borders would extend beyond the Jordan River. "Little by little," he responded when asked about possible expansion in the “In Israel: Ministers of Chaos” documentary.

The far-right minister also claimed that Jerusalem would eventually extend to Damascus in Syria, in line with the "Greater Israel" ideology based on religious interpretations of a "promised land."

The remarks follow previous controversial statements made by Smotrich, who denied the existence of a Palestinian people and said a Palestinian city should be "wiped off the face of the earth."

Smotrich's statements have led to diplomatic isolation, with recent visits to the US and France marked with his absence at official meetings.

1752281564833.jpeg

In Paris, Smotrich's use of a map of Israel that included Jordan further inflamed the debate.

The event was moved because of public outcry, which Smotrich interpreted as "hatred of Israel is everywhere."

The "Greater Israel" concept, rooted in religious texts, envisions Israeli expansion into parts of Palestine, Syria, and Jordan, though exact borders remain undefined.

IN THE LOOP
 

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Serryah

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Israel is the good guys.

Man, you are sucking that shit soda back real hard, aren't you?

Israel hasn't been the "Good guys" since about 2008ish, when Netanyahu came to power the first time (though inklings of their descent into lunacy started, I think, with the assassination with Rabin). Though they REALLY have reached peak assholes since 2022; December 29th, 2022 specifically, when the Government became the most right wing and most insane/religious ever. For context, "In 2023, the Likud-led coalition was described in authoritarian terms by Haaretz, such as "Fascist", "a dictatorship", and "Stalinist" (for similarities to Stalinism's authoritarian aspects).[109]" Any Government that has its own people calling them "Stalinist" is NOT "Good guys".

First hand accounts for you, btw.




--- start at 2:36

How the FUCK is Israel "The good guys" when they do this shit?

National Religious Party–Religious Zionism and Otzma Yehudit have been the biggest assholes to help "control" the Government and turn Israel into the shitbag country it's heading towards, thanks to that Government (unless people smarten the hell up and vote the shitbags out). But then when you throw fascists and bigots/racists into any kind of Government, it's going to go to hell real quick.

And for you idiots who will bring up Hamas and claim this is somehow "pro Hamas"- go fuck yourself. The current Israeli Government and Hamas are trash and the sooner they're gone from power, the better for everyone in the region. Just because you're too bought into the World Guilt over Israel doesn't mean it's always and forever innocent of anything/everything and that it's current acts of genocide and apartheid make them "the good guys".


But some good news at least against these shitbags...


(except the baby formula being taken by IDF. Fucking BABY FORMULA! How the FUCK is that even okay?! How the FUCK can any of you Pro Israeli sycophants be OKAY with that? ESPECIALLY when you're also the ones who are all "protect the babies, protect the children!" on other issues?)


And yes, I signed, because unlike some, I DO try to be one of the REAL "Good guys", and not these fucks who aren't.



(And I've linked a lot of Rachel's posts because she's a) an actual journalist that keeps up with this shit going on, b) while she IS biased, if she gets something wrong, she admits it and c) unlike a LOT of journalists, she's kept on this even when so many MSM types ignore the real events going on)
 
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petros

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Man, you are sucking that shit soda back real hard, aren't you?

Israel hasn't been the "Good guys" since about 2008ish, when Netanyahu came to power the first time (though inklings of their descent into lunacy started, I think, with the assassination with Rabin). Though they REALLY have reached peak assholes since 2022; December 29th, 2022 specifically, when the Government became the most right wing and most insane/religious ever. For context, "In 2023, the Likud-led coalition was described in authoritarian terms by Haaretz, such as "Fascist", "a dictatorship", and "Stalinist" (for similarities to Stalinism's authoritarian aspects).[109]" Any Government that has its own people calling them "Stalinist" is NOT "Good guys".

First hand accounts for you, btw.




--- start at 2:36

How the FUCK is Israel "The good guys" when they do this shit?

National Religious Party–Religious Zionism and Otzma Yehudit have been the biggest assholes to help "control" the Government and turn Israel into the shitbag country it's heading towards, thanks to that Government (unless people smarten the hell up and vote the shitbags out). But then when you throw fascists and bigots/racists into any kind of Government, it's going to go to hell real quick.

And for you idiots who will bring up Hamas and claim this is somehow "pro Hamas"- go fuck yourself. The current Israeli Government and Hamas are trash and the sooner they're gone from power, the better for everyone in the region. Just because you're too bought into the World Guilt over Israel doesn't mean it's always and forever innocent of anything/everything and that it's current acts of genocide and apartheid make them "the good guys".


But some good news at least against these shitbags...


And yes, I signed, because unlike some, I DO try to be one of the REAL "Good guys", and not these fucks who aren't.



(And I've linked a lot of Rachel's posts because she's a) an actual journalist that keeps up with this shit going on, b) while she IS biased, if she gets something wrong, she admits it and c) unlike a LOT of journalists, she's kept on this even when so many MSM types ignore the real events going on)
Gilmore has a slant but yeah Isreal is fucked..

I got as far as the woman with the slur in the first video before busting a gut. Shee shoundsh like Shhhelly Marshhh. "Shhhtan I'm going upshhhtairshhh to listen to my Brittany Shhhpeershh recordshhh you turdshhh."


Israel is a terrorist state.
 
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Ron in Regina

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Maybe they need to ditch the racist extremist idealists running the country? Would that not be the best place to start?
So, for that chunk of the world (& others), is that an exclusive trait in your opinion to those that reside in Israel (?) while being surrounded by peaceful neighbours only wanting to live their lives…unmolested?
Has Egypt ever attacked Israel?
Has Jordan ever attacked Israel?
Has Syria ever attacked Israel?
Has Lebanon ever attacked Israel?
Has Saudi Arabia ever attacked Israel?
Has Yemen ever attacked Israel?
Has Iraq ever attacked Israel?
Has Iran ever attacked Israel?
Have other nations participated in attacks on Israel since its inception as a nation in 1948 (?) and keep in mind that country is less than a century old?
How was Israel formed? Peace and love?
It was formed out of pity, hate and distrust.
How was Canada Formed? Australia? United States of America? Mexico? And so on and so forth another 190 or so times? Where any of those formed through peace and love?
If you read an article that pitys the abandoned holocaustages, mentions Hitler, conflates Oct 7 to the Holocaust you're reading propaganda.

Is it those trigger words of Hitler, Holocaust Holocaustages and Islam that have you distorted?
Hamas initially played things very well, hiding underneath the skirts of their own population, using them as Kevlar vests, with the tunnel in infrastructure that population wasn’t allowed in, etc….& having complete control of the “official” casualty and body counts that they can obscure and twist however they need to and the media just runs with it….well played.
Seriously. It was only a week ago when you learned who Smotrich is. Have you looked into any of the nutjobs and what they say? Or just keep on wasting time posting propaganda that props up the sycophants in the Knesset?
Maybe…just maybe, someone with a dissenting opinion than yours isn’t necessarily bought and paid for or pushing propaganda…but simply has a different opinion than you on this goat rodeo?
So to cut to the chase, you have no idea if Israeli political and religious leadership are radical sycophants or not but still blindly support the terrorism, theocracy, imperialism, racism and ethnic cleansing of said sycophants who are wanted for war crimes and crimes of humanity that don't deny being unhinged or commiting ethnic cleansing.
So. . . you're basing your position on the ravings of a handful of ultra-right nutjobs?
Man, you are sucking that shit soda back real hard, aren't you?
And for you idiots who will bring up Hamas and claim this is somehow "pro Hamas"- go fuck yourself.
How the FUCK can any of you Pro Israeli sycophants be OKAY with that?
Maybe…just maybe, someone with a dissenting opinion that yourself may not be a sycophant and has nothing to gain by having their own opinion that varies from yours in this goat rodeo?

One of the things that I use to determine the opinions in an issue is the flavour of the conduct of those defending or opposing viewpoints on a subject, and there does seems to be distinct flavours or aromas surrounding this one as an example. Works for me on more than just this one subject.
It's Qatars fault IDF can't beat Hamas? Israel has been holding 2.1M people hostage for 28 years and now they want to put them in a concentration camp?
If you’re referring to Gaza, how many countries does it border on? Just Israel (?) or more than just Israel again? Just noticing you strangely only mention the one country for whatever reason…
On the other end of the spectrum, I’ve seen several Saskatchewan towns with Jewish names apparently, and I’ve seen old cemeteries in Saskatchewan with that star of David thing above the gate…but I can’t honestly say whether or not I’ve ever actually met somebody who is Jewish or not.
Makes for a poor sycophant but still in propaganda school I guess, not having a dog in that hunt, etc…oh well…
The longer the holocaustages remain holocaustages the more people Israel can kill and the more land it can grab.
If Oct 7th 2023 didn’t happen, do you think Israel would be responding in the same manner, not that these few remaining surviving (or less alive) hostages deserve any pity, something something Hitler, and therefore propaganda, etc…?
Hamas sparked the war by leading Oct. 7, 2023, attacks on Israel. Around 1,200 people were killed and about 250 Holocaustages abducted, etc…
Or maybe it didn’t, or whatever…& in reaction to (or not) the above happening leading to the Hamas/Israel war…or maybe just justification for attacking Palestinians to not win the hearts & minds of many in an asymmetrical urban warfare situation.
The militant group now finds itself increasingly isolated, with its Lebanese ally Hezbollah and patron Iran battered by Israeli attacks. Most of Hamas’s military leaders in Gaza have been killed by Israeli forces. The group is now on its third leader in eight months, but it leaves room for rapid promotions.
The Rabbinic Judaism that exists today was codified after Christianity came into being and it came out of Persia and Babylon. That is the home of the Jews we know today. They want that too.
I thought I read somewhere here that they all (or mostly, or whatever) came from Poland? Maybe it was Russia?
 

Tecumsehsbones

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Screw what's "legal." Israel will have the land as long as Israel and its supporters are willing to fight and supply.

Not much land in the world that hasn't been taken from somebody by somebody, and usually several times.

If you can make it stick, it's "legal."
 

petros

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So, for that chunk of the world (& others), is that an exclusive trait in your opinion to those that reside in Israel (?) while being surrounded by peaceful neighbours only wanting to live their lives…unmolested?







Maybe…just maybe, someone with a dissenting opinion than yours isn’t necessarily bought and paid for or pushing propaganda…but simply has a different opinion than you on this goat rodeo?

Maybe…just maybe, someone with a dissenting opinion that yourself may not be a sycophant and has nothing to gain by having their own opinion that varies from yours in this goat rodeo?

One of the things that I use to determine the opinions in an issue is the flavour of the conduct of those defending or opposing viewpoints on a subject, and there does seems to be distinct flavours or aromas surrounding this one as an example. Works for me on more than just this one subject.

If you’re referring to Gaza, how many countries does it border on? Just Israel (?) or more than just Israel again? Just noticing you strangely only mention the one country for whatever reason…

Makes for a poor sycophant but still in propaganda school I guess, not having a dog in that hunt, etc…oh well…

If Oct 7th 2023 didn’t happen, do you think Israel would be responding in the same manner, not that these few remaining surviving (or less alive) hostages deserve any pity, something something Hitler, and therefore propaganda, etc…?

Or maybe it didn’t, or whatever…& in reaction to (or not) the above happening leading to the Hamas/Israel war…or maybe just justification for attacking Palestinians to not win the hearts & minds of many in an asymmetrical urban warfare situation.


I thought I read somewhere here that they all (or mostly, or whatever) came from Poland? Maybe it was Russia?
I'm sorry to say but it's not a differing opinion when you're only learning the background, actions and goals of the Israeli players over the past week after refusing to accept any of what has been posted over the past 645 days.

How is any of this a conspiracy theory as you say when it's on video and in print.

The world never went anti-semitic and hates Jews but you've got to ask yourself "what do these billions of people see that I don't?"
 

Ron in Regina

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The world never went anti-semitic and hates Jews but you've got to ask yourself "what do these billions of people see that I don't?"
That’s a really good question. The “world” isn’t everyone that sees things the same way you do…& it isn’t everyone that sees things the way I do, but on that train of thought & running with your tangent, what have these people been seeing for at least hundreds of years….that I, never having knowingly met a Jewish person, missed?

Yes, until Oct 7th 2023, the Middle East was just background in movies & books for me, & not being religious, the area held no mythical or spiritual place in my world view, and so I went into a crash coarse on the area without preconceived biases trying to wrap my head around that ongoing continuous goat rodeo.

This is from early on in this very thread:
1752382311629.jpeg
So….By not being religious, and not knowing personally a Palestinian or Israeli, ever….& pulling info in through from all over the place to form my own opinion, instead of having a preconceived bias….that must mean that I’m uneducated on the topic and regurgitating propaganda from only one side of this fiasco by looking at it from the outside without a reason to bring in a previous bias into try to understand what I’m seeing? That about where we’re at?

Again, from early on in this very thread:
1752383237166.jpeg
…& again, from early on in this very thread:
1752383642792.jpeg
Add in 650-ish more days of following the mutual shenanigans in the region for many diverse players with overlapping agendas, & again pulling info from many multiple sources without having a bias of religion or by association a slant to one side or the other…I’ve come to my own conclusions thus far.
I'm sorry to say but it's not a differing opinion when you're only learning the background, actions and goals of the Israeli players over the past week after refusing to accept any of what has been posted over the past 645 days.
Excuse me but…what? Seriously?
How is any of this a conspiracy theory as you say when it's on video and in print.
I’ve never said any of this is a conspiracy theory, & I have said from early-early on in this twisted theatre, that Hamas/Et al are winning this propaganda war using their own citizens in Gaza to run up the body count and controlling the information about it from day one. It was strategically on point…very shitty, but strategically on point.

As far as conspiracy theories go…who’s advocating what in the tinfoil hat realm? Doesn’t mean that many conspiracy theories eventually come to light with grains of truth…but they start as conspiracy theories.
One of the things that I use to determine the opinions in an issue is the flavour of the conduct of those defending or opposing viewpoints on a subject, and there does seems to be distinct flavours or aromas surrounding this one as an example. Works for me on more than just this one subject.
 

Serryah

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Screw what's "legal." Israel will have the land as long as Israel and its supporters are willing to fight and supply.

Does that go to the Palestinians who fight back against the Israelis? Devil's advocate here, but isn't that what Hamas' excuse is? "Screw legal, this was our land and we won't let Jews have it"?

Not much land in the world that hasn't been taken from somebody by somebody, and usually several times.

You're right. Legal doesn't matter when it comes to land claims. Or it didn't matter.

Now, well we like to pretend we've 'grown' to be 'better'.

Guess it only matters on the color of your skin or the guilt you can lay on people.

If you can make it stick, it's "legal."

Said like a true lawyer (not mean to be a slight, btw).

Overall I'd agree with you.

The issue I have is when the "other side" play by the same rules, somehow they're now bad/evil for even fighting back. This isn't to say what is being done by Hamas and other extremists is right, it's not, never has been, never will be. But why is it Israel's leadership is forgiven THEIR extremes but others are not?
 
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petros

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Yes, until Oct 7th 2023, the Middle East was just background in movies & books for me, & not being religious, the area held no mythical or spiritual place in my world view, and so I went into a crash coarse on the area without preconceived biases trying to wrap my head around that ongoing continuous goat rodeo.
And you went straight to the propaganda and dove in head first?

What lead to Oct 7? How did it get to that boiling point and what sours the opinion of 98M out of 123M pacifist Japanese? It's definitely not Antisemitism. So what is it?

The answer is in here:

 
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petros

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Yep. "Legal" is only meaningful when all concerned have agreed to play by the rules. There's a reason cops, prison guards, and suchlike carry guns.
I don't know of any nations involved who don't participate in or recognize international legal and regulatory agencies. Nothing pops into mind.
 

Tecumsehsbones

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I don't know of any nations involved who don't participate in or recognize international legal and regulatory agencies. Nothing pops into mind.
I don't know of any criminal organizations that don't recognize the law, as a general matter.

International law, at this stage, is about as effective as domestic law was on the frontier in the early 1800s. And for the same reason. Weak enforcement.
 

Ron in Regina

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Regina, Saskatchewan
What lead to Oct 7?
Well, starting in 2025, or 2021, or 2012, or 2008, or 2006, or 1973, or 1967 (the later 1/2 & not the first 1/2), or most of the ‘50’s & 60’s but 1956 specifically, or 1948, or 1947, or 1923, or 2000 years ago, or 3000 years ago? This thread is one of many & 5000+ posts in so far…and we’ve all learned much in the last 20+ months, so you’ve got to be much more specific with a question like that.
How did it get to that boiling point and what sours the opinion of 98M out of 123M pacifist Japanese?
Hmmmm…weird but interesting question. Ok, I’d assume initially they (the pacifist Japanese) would’ve expressed shock & condemnation of the attacks on Israel on Oct 7th 2023, then over time & by design with the information being released in the propaganda war that this conflict is, they’d have sympathy for Palestinians caught in the middle of this war as Israel fights Hamas (& it’s affiliates in Gaza and in the surrounding nations) who’s hiding in & under the Palestinian population. Is that close? I’m assuming (right or wrong in an ass/u/me sorta thing) that’s what most people with even a vague knowledge of this goat rodeo would feel? This in the ballpark?

Who benefits from a high body count of Palestinians (exaggerated or not) in this conflict between Hamas and Israel? Hamas is winning the propaganda side of this war.
On the propaganda front, I completely agree with you. Israel was not as good as Hamas/Iran/Iranian proxies on the propaganda front. There was a very well organized and funded global media Push that was in place before Oct 7th, and once the trigger was pulled, it was out in full force doing damage control in multiple western countries on or before Oct 8th.
I’ve never said any of this is a conspiracy theory, & I have said from early-early on in this twisted theatre, that Hamas/Et al are winning this propaganda war using their own citizens in Gaza to run up the body count and controlling the information about it from day one. It was strategically on point…very shitty, but strategically on point.
Maybe a more relevant question isn’t “What lead to Oct 7th?” BUT “What reaction did Hamas expect to provoke on Oct 7th with that attack & taking 250-ish hostages holocaustages from Israel?”

What did Hamas do in advance of Oct 7th (& since) to protect the citizens of Gaza from the Israeli reaction to October 7th?
 

Tecumsehsbones

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I'm not a big fan of "proportional response." "You punch me, I punch you" isn't as conclusive as "you punch me, I break your legs, burn your house, and kill everybody you ever knew."

What's more destructive? Decades or centuries of tit-for-tat, or a devastating attack that destroys resistance?

Hiroshima and Nagasaki were GOOD for Japan. Far fewer deaths than an invasion of the islands would have involved.
 
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Ron in Regina

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I'm not a big fan of "proportional response." "You punch me, I punch you" isn't as conclusive as "you punch me, I break your legs, burn your house, and kill everybody you ever knew."

What's more destructive? Decades or centuries of tit-for-tat, or a devastating attack that destroys resistance?

Hiroshima and Nagasaki were GOOD for Japan. Far fewer deaths than an invasion of the islands would have involved.
If Israel would have taken a “proportional” response to Oct 7th, with Hamas embedded in and under the Palestinian population in a asymmetrical urban combat situation, what would that have looked like and how would that have discouraged future attacks from Hamas & Hezbollah & the Houthis & Iran & Islamic Jihad & the Moslem Brotherhood & anyone else that has an issue with Israel existing where it exists (or in general)???
 
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