Grace and Karma

[Cliffy]

I asked DB to specify the work(s) of A B Kuhn which validate this claim. Do know the specific, related published works of this author?

Why take his opinion on the subject? Go to the original material. Personally, I prefer direct communication with the source. I'm tired of reading books.
BUt if you like books, I suggest the works of Joseph Campbell: The Hero's Journey, the Hero of a thousand faces and any other of his books. He was the world's foremost authority on mythology. The Jesus story is based on the archetype that has been around for thousands of years and can be found in just about every culture on Earth. Karl Jung had some very good insights into archetypes too.

 

[Motar]

Genesis is the Cole's Notes of a much older and more detailed account.

Somewhat agree, Cliffy.

A much older wisdom is indeed recorded in Genesis. Genesis is the Hebrew experience of it. This ancient wisdom has always been accessible to all men and all cultures. But the wisdom does not proceed from any men. It precedes them:

"Open your eyes and there it is! By taking a long and thoughtful look at what God has created, people have always been able to see what their eyes as such can’t see: eternal power, for instance, and the mystery of his divine being." (Romans 1:19,20 The Message)

It comes as no surprise to me then that both A. B. Kuhn and Augustine The Great Myth of the SUN-GODS - by Alvin Boyd Kuhn conclude that Christ pre-dates the incarnation of Jesus:

"The Word was first, the Word present to God, God present to the Word. The Word was God, in readiness for God from day one...The Word became flesh and blood, and moved into the neighborhood...John pointed him out and called, 'This is the One! The One I told you was coming after me but in fact was ahead of me. He has always been ahead of me, has always had the first word.” (John 1:1-3,14,15 The Message)

 

[darkbeaver]

Nope. I simply made a comment on something you said and you wanted a half page of expatiation.


"Symbolism: the use of symbols to represent ideas or qualities"
and
"Symbol: a mark or character used as a conventional representation of an object, function, or process, e.g. the letter or letters standing for a chemical element or a character in musical notation"
(both definitions from Oxford's dictionary).
They are not the same thing.

Thank you for correcting me,. I don't know how I could have seen any relationship at all.

The word becomes flesh and blood every time a human is reborn.

 

[Motar]

Semantics. Which is what I have been saying all along except I called it dogma. Every religion, every spiritual path is separated by semantics. You say Christ, a Muslim says Mohamed, a Buddhist says Buddha, Native Americans say White Buffalo Calf Woman. They all personalize the concept of the divine spark in all of us. The underlying message of all is basically the same. When a Hindu puts his hands together and bows to another person and says "Namaste" it roughly translates as "I bow to the God within you", or "The Spirit within me salutes the Spirit in you".

A side-by-side comparison of Christ and Mohammed or Christ and Buddha would soon fall apart, Cliffy. But comparing Moses (a forerunner of Christ) and Christ is a different matter entirely.

 

[gerryh]

A side-by-side comparison of Christ and Mohammed or Christ and Buddha would soon fall apart, Cliffy. But comparing Moses (a forerunner of Christ) and Christ is a different matter entirely.

Really? A forerunner of Christ? How in Heavens name did Moses become a forerunner of one part of the Holy Trinity? The Holy Trinity has always been. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit have been around forever. They are the 3 parts of one. How does Moses get become a "forerunner"?

 

[Motar]

Really? A forerunner of Christ? How does Moses get become a "forerunner"?

Forerunner (noun)
: someone or something that comes before another
: a sign of something that is going to happen
: one that precedes and indicates the approach of another
: a premonitory sign or symptom
predecessor, ancestor
Forerunner - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

Yes, Gerry, Moses is a forerunner of Christ:

Moses – The first mediator. Jesus – The final mediator.
Moses was born as a Hebrew. Jesus was born as a Hebrew.
Moses was chosen by God to be a leader. Jesus was chosen by God to be a leader.
Moses was born while his people were suffering under a cruel leader (Pharaoh). Jesus was born while his people were suffering under a cruel leader (Herod).
Moses hid in Egypt as a child. Jesus hid in Egypt as a child.
The leader of the land that Moses was born into tried to kill all of the babies when he was born. The leader of the land that Jesus was born into tried to kill all of the babies when He was born.
Moses turned water into blood. Jesus turned water into wine.
Moses died on a hill. Jesus died on a hill.
Moses fasted 40 days and faced a spiritual crisis on a mountain. Jesus fasted 40 days and faced a spiritual crisis on a mountain.
Moses told people about the need for a Passover lamb. Jesus became the Passover lamb.
Moses communicated directly with God. Jesus communicated directly with God.
Moses performed miracles. Jesus performed miracles.
Moses was a law giver – gave the ten commandments. Jesus was a law giver – gave the great commandment.
Moses was hated by the ruling religious party (Egyptian priests). Jesus was hated by the ruling religious party (Jewish Pharisees).
Moses had brothers and sisters who misunderstood him. Jesus had brothers and sisters who misunderstood him.
Moses chose 12 leaders to follow. Jesus chose 12 leaders to follow.
Moses gave his people a new identity as a people.Jesus gave his people a new identity as a people.
Moses had followers who strayed from his teachings. Jesus had followers who strayed from his teachings.
Moses is the lead figure of the Old Testament. Jesus is the lead figure of the New Testament.
Moses taught his followers how to pray. Jesus taught his followers how to pray.
Moses chose people to carry on when he was leaving. Jesus chose people to carry on when he was leaving.
Moses led his people to the promised land. Jesus leads his people to the promised land.
Moses sent 12 spies to Canaan. Jesus sent 12 disciples to the world.
Moses appointed 70 rulers over Israel. Jesus appointed 70 disciples to the nations.
The people picked up stones to stone Moses but they did not succeed. The people picked up stones to stone Jesus, but they did not succeed.
Moses controlled the waters of the Red Sea. Jesus controlled the Sea of Galilee.
Moses brought water out of the rock. Jesus brings living water to all of his believers.
The face of Moses shown with glory on Mount Sinai. The face of Jesus shown with glory on the Mount of Transfiguration.
Moses lifted the brazen serpent up in the wilderness. Jesus was lifted up on the cross.
Moses was a shepherd. Jesus is the Good Shepherd.
Moses subdued an attacking army by raising his arms high on the top of a hill (with two other people). Jesus subdued sin and death with arms raised high on a hill (with two other people).
Moses said another prophet would come (Jesus). Jesus said another would come (Holy Spirit).
Those who did not follow Moses died in the wilderness because of their lack of faith.Those who refused to follow Jesus died in the siege of Jerusalem in 70 AD.
Moses fed thousands supernaturally with bread. Jesus fed thousands supernaturally with bread.
Moses took a gentile bride. Jesus took a gentile bride (the church).
There is a long period of silence in the story of Moses from the time he was a child until adulthood.There is a long period of silence in the story of Jesus from the time he was a child until adulthood.
Moses showed compassion to a woman getting water at a well. Jesus showed compassion to a woman getting water at a well.
Moses’ mission was to redeem Israel from slavery to Egypt. Jesus’ mission was to redeem mankind from slavery to sin.
Moses was loved and supported by his sister Miriam. Jesus was loved and supported in his ministry by His mother Mary.
Moses gave God’s law on a mountain. Jesus gave the law in a sermon on the mount.
Moses offered his life for the salvation of his people after the sin of the golden calf. Jesus offered His life for the salvation of the world.
Moses rejected a lavish, ruling lifestyle in the house of the Pharaoh. Instead, he chose a humble life. Jesus rejected the offers of Satan to be the ruler of this world and instead chose a humble life.
Moses washed Aaron and his sons with water. Jesus washed the feet of his disciples.
Moses and Jesus – Divine similarities! | Moses and the Exodus | Working to turn blind faith into a confident, bold, and contagious faith.

"The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your fellow Israelites. You must listen to him." (Deuteronomy 18:15 NIV)

The preceding list of similarities between Moses and Jesus establishes Moses as a forerunner of Jesus. If you're interested, Gerry, there is a similar typology list at this catholic website: http://www.agapebiblestudy.com/charts/Typology%20of%20Moses%20and%20Jesus.htm

 

[petros]

Moses was born an Egyptian. You know Egypt right? The place where monotheism all started?

 

[Cliffy]

Moses was born an Egyptian. You know Egypt right? The place where monotheism all started?

If the Moses story is true, then being raised by a Pharaoh as his son, he would have been a high priest of the Egyptian religion.

 

[petros]

If the Moses story is true, then being raised by a Pharaoh as his son, he would have been a high priest of the Egyptian religion.

ThutmoseIII sent him to set up a vassal state in Canaan.

Habiru (hebrew) were Egyptians.

 

[darkbeaver]

God always called man (typed by "Moses") up into Mount Sinai to commune with him. Moses is man.

The Talmudic Moses has a virgin mother; Samuel’s mother became pregnant after receiving divine seed; Zipporah was found by Moses pregnant, but by no mortal man. Tamar became pregnant by an infusion of divine seed and Isaac was not the result of generation, but of the shaping of the unbegotten. On the 343
Greek side not only were the heroes of legend, Herakles, Theseus, Perseus, Jason and others believed to be the sons of divine fathers and human mothers, but the same legend reached down even to historical figures like Pythagoras and Plato, both of whom were "Sons of Apollo," the first by Parthenis--which Warschauer remarks sounds most intriguingly suggestive of parthenogenesis, or "virgin birth,"--the second by Periktione.



Moses, avers Massey, received two laws on the mountain, the written and the oral. This oral law was the primitive tradition that contained the Apocrypha, the secret doctrines of the dark sayings and parables, the clue and key to all their hidden wisdom. That which was written was intended only for the ignorant outsiders; the interpretation was for the initiated. With the written version of the Jewish sacred books alone in our possession, we have been locked outside and left there without the key.



"That Joshua is a purely mythical personage was long ago decided by the historical criticism of the school of Colenso and Kuenen; that he was originally a solar deity can be established at least as satisfactorily as the solar character of Moses, if not as that of Samson."http://pc93.tripod.com/whosking.htm

 

[Motar]

Moses was born an Egyptian. You know Egypt right? The place where monotheism all started?

Moses was born a Hebrew, Petros:

"Now a man of the tribe of Levi married a Levite woman, and she became pregnant and gave birth to a son. When she saw that he was a fine child, she hid him for three months. But when she could hide him no longer, she got a papyrus basketfor him and coated it with tar and pitch. Then she placed the child in it and put it among the reeds along the bank of the Nile. His sister stood at a distance to see what would happen to him. Then Pharaoh’s daughter went down to the Nile to bathe, and her attendants were walking along the riverbank. She saw the basket among the reeds and sent her female slave to get it. She opened it and saw the baby. He was crying, and she felt sorry for him. 'This is one of the Hebrew babies,' she said. Then his sister asked Pharaoh’s daughter, 'Shall I go and get one of the Hebrew women to nurse the baby for you?' 'Yes, go,' she answered. So the girl went and got the baby’s mother. Pharaoh’s daughter said to her, 'Take this baby and nurse him for me, and I will pay you.' So the woman took the baby and nursed him. When the child grew older, she took him to Pharaoh’s daughter and he became her son. She named him Moses, saying, 'I drew him out of the water." (Exodus 2:1-10 NIV)

 

[petros]

Moses was born a Hebrew, Petros:

"Now a man of the tribe of Levi married a Levite woman, and she became pregnant and gave birth to a son. When she saw that he was a fine child, she hid him for three months. But when she could hide him no longer, she got a papyrus basket for him and coated it with tar and pitch. Then she placed the child in it and put it among the reeds along the bank of the Nile. His sister stood at a distance to see what would happen to him. Then Pharaoh’s daughter went down to the Nile to bathe, and her attendants were walking along the riverbank. She saw the basket among the reeds and sent her female slave to get it. She opened it and saw the baby. He was crying, and she felt sorry for him. 'This is one of the Hebrew babies,' she said. Then his sister asked Pharaoh’s daughter, 'Shall I go and get one of the Hebrew women to nurse the baby for you?' 'Yes, go,' she answered. So the girl went and got the baby’s mother. Pharaoh’s daughter said to her, 'Take this baby and nurse him for me, and I will pay you.' So the woman took the baby and nursed him. When the child grew older, she took him to Pharaoh’s daughter and he became her son. She named him Moses, saying, 'I drew him out of the water." (Exodus 2:1-10 NIV)

Born a Habiru in Egypt which made him Egyptian. Habiru (hebrew) weren't slaves.

 

[darkbeaver]

C H R I S T ’ S T H R E E D A Y S I N H E L L​

​

REVELATION OF​

AN ASTOUNDING CHRISTIAN FALLACY​

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By​

​

​

Alvin Boyd Kuhn, Ph.D

Quoting these verses MacCulloch asks if this means that Moses was a forerunner of Jesus to Hades, heralding the Lord’s coming there, - another John the Baptist. Obviously what it means is just what the orthodox commentators have obdurately refused to see: that all such recurrences of theme are elements of the arcane allegorism of ancient writing, and not real as objective occurrences at all. Not historical as events, they are yet realities in the life of man spiritual, for they present to the mind the veridical forms of spiritual reality. As far as it goes, this little sketch of the soul’s advent and incarnation on earth is item for item a paralogue of the New Testament’s descent and preaching of Jesus. As long, of course, as the venerable Scriptures are envisaged as literal history of one ancient people, instead of typegraphs of the form and meaning of human life, no theologian would be in a thousand years of identifying "Moses" of the Old Testament with John the Baptist of the New. Moses himself could not enter the Promised Land, but prepared the way for the full-fledged "Jesus" (Joshua) to cross the Jordan into the land flowing with milk and honey. "Moses" therefore is the way-opener in evolution for the advent of Christly spirit power, and stands to Joshua as John the Baptist stands to Jesus. It is well to point out several identities in the two constructions. God sent his "one-ly born" Son down to earth, and this mission entailed his descent to Hades; rather, be it said categorically, this was that descent to Hades. In the Old Testament allegory, the Lord ordered Moses to descend. Jesus descended and preached to them three days (two actually); Moses’ exhortation was to continue for two days, ending on the third day.C H R I S T ’ S T H R E E D A Y S I N H E L L

 

[Motar]

Born a Habiru in Egypt which made him Egyptian. Habiru (hebrew) weren't slaves.

In his own written account in the book of Exodus, Moses identifies with Israel:

"One day, after Moses had grown up, he went out to where his own people were and watched them at their hard labor. He saw an Egyptian beating a Hebrew, one of his own people. Looking this way and that and seeing no one, he killed the Egyptian and hid him in the sand. The next day he went out and saw two Hebrews fighting. He asked the one in the wrong, “Why are you hitting your fellow Hebrew?” (Exodus 2:13-13 NIV)

"Then Moses went back to Jethro his father-in-law and said to him, 'Let me return to my own people in Egypt to see if any of them are still alive.' Jethro said, 'Go, and I wish you well.” (Exodus 4:18 NIV)

 

[gerryh]

So Christ was just a leader, prophet, a man, the same as Moses. It sounds to me like you have elevated Moses or brought Christ down. Which is it?

 

[darkbeaver]

Scriptural exegetists should not forget the name "Moses" means "drawn out of the water;" and the legend had him picked up as the infant floating in a basket of reeds, calked with bitumen, among the marshes at the river’s edge. The same tradition went with the semi-mythical Sargon of Assyria before him. Life and consciousness do take their rise out of the mingled earth and water of the worldly, the human underbase. In this connection it is most fascinating to find a legend that clung to the symbolical baptism of Jesus by John in the Gospels. According to the second-century Christian exegetist, Justin Martyr, at the baptism of Jesus, "a fire was kindled in the waters of the Jordan." In a human birth, the new unit of fiery life is born out of a sack of water.THE ULTIMATE CANON OF KNOWLEDGE

 

[petros]

So Christ was just a leader, prophet, a man, the same as Moses. It sounds to me like you have elevated Moses or brought Christ down. Which is it?

Soundds like something a Muzzie would say.

If you're a true Christian the OT means nothing.

 

[Motar]

Soundds like something a Muzzie would say. If you're a true Christian the OT means nothing.

The Old Testament means something to Jesus, Petros:

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets (Old Testament); I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." (Matthew 5:17 NIV)

"You study the Scriptures (Old Testament) diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me..." (John 5:39 NIV)

The Old Testament is Christ's context.

So Christ was just a leader, prophet, a man, the same as Moses. It sounds to me like you have elevated Moses or brought Christ down. Which is it?

Moses = man
Christ = God/man

What brings Christ down Gerry is when we claim him as Savior/Lord with our words and dishonor him with our lives.

 

[petros]

The Torah not the OT. Look up what the word Testament means sometime.

 

[Cliffy]

Born a Habiru in Egypt which made him Egyptian. Habiru (hebrew) weren't slaves.

And what of Abraham the Sumerian who cut off his foreskin to become the first Jew?