Grace and Karma

Motar

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Jun 18, 2013
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The Torah not the OT. Look up what the word Testament means sometime.

Please instruct us, Petros.

And what of Abraham the Sumerian who cut off his foreskin to become the first Jew?

Jew derives from Judah, Cliffy - one of Abraham's descendants:

Jew (n.)
late 12c. (in plural, giwis), from Anglo-French iuw, Old French giu, from Latin Iudaeum (nominative Iudaeus), from Greek Ioudaios, from Aramaic jehudhai (Hebrew y'hudi) "Jew," from Y'hudah "Judah," literally "celebrated," name of Jacob's fourth son and of the tribe descended from him. Replaced Old English Iudeas "the Jews." Originally, "Hebrew of the kingdom of Judah."
Online Etymology Dictionary
 

petros

The Central Scrutinizer
Nov 21, 2008
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The cross can also be an image of a sword stuck in the ground as a symbol of peace (Japanese tradition. Possibly other ethnicities, also).
The cross was used as a Christian symbol in Pompeii before Vesuvius popped in 79AD



Did they have Nipponese in Pompeii in 79AD?

Please instruct us, Petros.
Testament or covenant is a contract. God broke off the Old Covenant (testament) with the Israelites and issued a New Covenant (testament) with anyone who followed Jesus.

The Yahudi (Judeans aka Jews) were un-chosen and the contract broken by God because they weren't following the laws set forth in the Torah.

There is no way in Hell a true Christian would support the Yahudi returning to the Holy Land.
 

Motar

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Jun 18, 2013
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God broke off the Old Covenant (testament) with the Israelites and issued a New Covenant (testament) with anyone who followed Jesus.

Agree, Petros. Anyone includes believing descendants of Jacob (Israel).
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
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Circumcision SEX AS SYMBOL

CHAPTER XX​
WITH UNVEILED FACE​
The next feature is strikingly suggestive of further cosmic methodology. The foreskin is found used several times in the Old Testament, obviously with cryptic connotations. In the fourth chapter of Exodus there is given the strange incident in which Moses' wife Zipporah takes a sharp stone and cuts off the foreskin of her son Gershom and casts it at Moses' feet, saying, "Surely a bloody husband art thou to me!" The Lord had tried to kill Moses and the son's foreskin is allegorized as saving the father from the Lord's fateful purpose. Measured by the yardstick of orthodox presuppositions the "incident" is hardly amenable to any intelligible rationalization. One has to resort to the intimations of old Egyptian figurism to gain a clue.
The descent of the soul was always the mythological equivalent of the "death" of the parent in the old cycle, and his resurrection or rising again "from the dead" was prefigured in and as the birth and growth of his son. The father died that he might live again in and as his own son. The son's birth and glorious youth resurrected or revived the dead father. Hence there is the great scene at Anu, where Horus, the Christ, raises from the dead his father Osiris, a scene which is almost word for word the archetype of the raising of Lazarus at Bethany in John's Gospel! Indeed the name Lazarus is found to work back to the old name of Osiris,--Asar. The meaning indicated, then, is that the application by the mother, nature, of the son's symbol of virile life, the foreskin, to the feet of the father, who is represented as under sentence or threat of death at God's hands, could be seen as a variant form of the drama-
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tization of the son's recreative power restoring the "dead" father to living status.
At another place in Israelite history the victorious general ordered the foreskins of the soldiers of a captured army to be heaped in a pile, with the symbolic implications left obscurely to the interpretative capacity of the reader.
Circumcision was a rite that dramatized quite realistically the cutting off of the carnal nature in the process of evolution, as the spiritual nature came to full kingship in the life of the individual.
The symbolism of the foreskin in its simple physiological status is, however, quite revealing. It is a veil of flesh that is, in intercourse, drawn back or retracted from the sensitive head of the phallus, and again drawn out to cover it. This divestiture and investiture of the most living part of the organ with each inward and outward movement is most astonishingly adumbrative of corresponding features of the cosmic creational processes. It is recounted among the allegories in the Old Testament, in Exodus 34, that when Moses went into the presence of the Lord on Mount Sinai, he put a veil over his face, but removed it when he came out to reveal the Lord's message to the people of Israel. It may seem a far cry from this dramatism to the veiling and unveiling of the glans of the phallus in its sacred function of generating and implanting the seed of new life in the womb of mother nature. Yet the analogy is before us and is in close keeping with the whole range of such gripping parallels. The sensitive head of the divine planter of seed is uncovered in its entry into the depths of matter and covered again as it is withdrawn. The head of the organ must surely stand for the spiritual mind of God. All poetry has limned nature and matter as being impregnated with the mind of God. God, so to say, uncovers his innermost soul as he thrusts it outward into the material universe, so that matter may have the thrilling contact with mind, and he covers it again in withdrawal. He subjects his mind to full and complete contact with matter in involution, and veils it over again in evolution.
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All this detail is matched with marvelous fidelity in what the archaic wisdom discloses of the soul's own procedure as it descends into matter of body. At each step of descent from God's pure spiritual presence toward embodiment in flesh, it invested

SEX AS SYMBOL
 

Motar

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Jun 18, 2013
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There is no way in Hell a true Christian would support the Yahudi returning to the Holy Land.

A true Christian recognizes that the holy land (kingdom of God) is currently an internal, spiritual reality:

"Once, on being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, 'The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is in your midst." (Luke 17;20-21 NIV) Luke 17:21 Or is within you
 

Motar

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Jun 18, 2013
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I was reading a while back that circumcision did not always mean cutting the foreskin off.

"A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God." (Romans 2:28-29 NIV)
 

Motar

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Jun 18, 2013
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"A person is not a Jew who is one only outwardly, nor is circumcision merely outward and physical. No, a person is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the written code. Such a person’s praise is not from other people, but from God." (Romans 2:28-29 NIV)

Physical, hygienic circumcision is a metaphor for spiritual sanctification, Petros.
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
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The book of life is written on our soul, DB:

"Your very lives are a letter that anyone can read by just looking at you. Christ himself wrote it—not with ink, but with God’s living Spirit; not chiseled into stone, but carved into human lives—and we publish it. We couldn’t be more sure of ourselves in this—that you, written by Christ himself for God, are our letter of recommendation. We wouldn’t think of writing this kind of letter about ourselves. Only God can write such a letter. His letter authorizes us to help carry out this new plan of action. The plan wasn’t written out with ink on paper, with pages and pages of legal footnotes, killing your spirit. It’s written with Spirit on spirit, his life on our lives!" (2 Corinthians 3:3-6 The Message)


http://pc93.tripod.com/lostlght.htm




The heart that is weighed in the scales could not be physical. It was the second or spiritual heart. The Manes appeals to this second heart, as to a person detached from himself, not to bear testimony against him in the presence of the god who is at the balance. This second heart was that which was fashioned anew according to the life lived in the body. "The conscience or heart (Ab) of a man is his own god," says the Ritual, and it also is his only judge. The divine words spoken by the soul, the soul’s projection of its highest conception of truth, were to be given flesh and made concrete truth in the life lived on earth. This recording of its own inner nature upon the body of flesh was the writing of its own book of life. And that which was written upon the outward form would in the repercussion stamp its lineaments back again upon inner spirit vestments, or deposit them in the ark. And this book of life, the record inscribed at the end upon the imperishable soul itself, was opened anew at the beginning, not at the end, of each fresh incarnation of the soul. The facing of the record of the past began afresh for each individual every time he plunged into earth life. We meet the book of life at birth, not at death! For we bring
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with us our own past record, written upon our inner ethereal vestures in letters of character. In life, not in death, we must face the issues raised by former good or ill. By our active deeds we must break the bondage of the past. Never will moral problems be envisaged aright until it is seen that their issues must be met and settled by conduct in the daylight of life, not in the dark night of death. This knowledge can transform human society.
Revelation (20) records the vision of the seer:
"I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened, and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. The sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them; and they were judged every man according to his works."
With the esoteric reading of the words "sea," "death," and "hell," there is no passage in ancient writing that more explicitly sets forth the meaning of the Judgment than this. Categorically it is declared that it is the "works" wrought in this present domain of life that determine the fate and status of the soul. The truth which is thus overwhelmingly established is that "the dead" come to their judgment in this life. It is, of course, possible to abstract from the phraseology of such passages as this apparent support for the idea that after this life is over (a thousand years after, it is expressly claimed by numerous cults) the dead will be summoned out of earthly graves and arraigned in ghostly lines before some august spiritual court, by which the record of the deeds done in the life will be weighted against some standard of abstract justice, and the righteous ones rewarded with a crown of eternal life, while the evil ones are parted off for eternal torment. But such a reading is a sorry distortion of the mythical sense, and was never the true intent of the framers of the allegory. This life is, as we now see, the realm of the "dead." In it, not after it, is the trial of the soul’s qualities, as every common sense conception of the value of earthly life testifies. We are summoned into this Amenta of the body life after life, and in each we are being put to the trial of our character in a varied series of experiences. This is an incontrovertible fact of common knowledge. This world is the high mount into which the dark power, Satan, led the Jesus spirit for its trial and temptation. Given a moment’s sane reflection, any soul will know that this life is
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the period of its trial and testing. The soul is drawn here to exercise her undeveloped powers, as Plotinus has so well told us. Without such a testing she would remain forever ignorant of her own latent capacity, or would never bring it to expression.
 

Motar

Council Member
Jun 18, 2013
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http://pc93.tripod.com/lostlght.htmThe heart that is weighed in the scales could not be physical. It was the second or spiritual heart. The Manes appeals to this second heart, as to a person detached from himself, not to bear testimony against him in the presence of the god who is at the balance. This second heart was that which was fashioned anew according to the life lived in the body. "The conscience or heart (Ab) of a man is his own god," says the Ritual, and it also is his only judge. The divine words spoken by the soul, the soul’s projection of its highest conception of truth, were to be given flesh and made concrete truth in the life lived on earth. This recording of its own inner nature upon the body of flesh was the writing of its own book of life. And that which was written upon the outward form would in the repercussion stamp its lineaments back again upon inner spirit vestments, or deposit them in the ark. And this book of life, the record inscribed at the end upon the imperishable soul itself, was opened anew at the beginning, not at the end, of each fresh incarnation of the soul. The facing of the record of the past began afresh for each individual every time he plunged into earth life. We meet the book of life at birth, not at death! For we bring

484​


with us our own past record, written upon our inner ethereal vestures in letters of character. In life, not in death, we must face the issues raised by former good or ill. By our active deeds we must break the bondage of the past. Never will moral problems be envisaged aright until it is seen that their issues must be met and settled by conduct in the daylight of life, not in the dark night of death. This knowledge can transform human society.
Revelation (20) records the vision of the seer:
"I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened, and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. The sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them; and they were judged every man according to his works."
With the esoteric reading of the words "sea," "death," and "hell," there is no passage in ancient writing that more explicitly sets forth the meaning of the Judgment than this. Categorically it is declared that it is the "works" wrought in this present domain of life that determine the fate and status of the soul. The truth which is thus overwhelmingly established is that "the dead" come to their judgment in this life. It is, of course, possible to abstract from the phraseology of such passages as this apparent support for the idea that after this life is over (a thousand years after, it is expressly claimed by numerous cults) the dead will be summoned out of earthly graves and arraigned in ghostly lines before some august spiritual court, by which the record of the deeds done in the life will be weighted against some standard of abstract justice, and the righteous ones rewarded with a crown of eternal life, while the evil ones are parted off for eternal torment. But such a reading is a sorry distortion of the mythical sense, and was never the true intent of the framers of the allegory. This life is, as we now see, the realm of the "dead." In it, not after it, is the trial of the soul’s qualities, as every common sense conception of the value of earthly life testifies. We are summoned into this Amenta of the body life after life, and in each we are being put to the trial of our character in a varied series of experiences. This is an incontrovertible fact of common knowledge. This world is the high mount into which the dark power, Satan, led the Jesus spirit for its trial and temptation. Given a moment’s sane reflection, any soul will know that this life is

485


the period of its trial and testing. The soul is drawn here to exercise her undeveloped powers, as Plotinus has so well told us. Without such a testing she would remain forever ignorant of her own latent capacity, or would never bring it to expression.

So, what are your thoughts, DB?
 

Cliffy

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Nov 19, 2008
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My thoughts are reflections of light cast on subjects by my inner eye.
A metaphor that is cast before those who think metaphors are literal truth.

Do thoughts originate with the ego or with spirit? My understanding is thoughts are the ego talking to itself while inspiration is the heart talking, the still small voice within. My mind can be confused at times, but my heart (soul) never is.
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
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Indeed we have here the Greek philosophical root of one of the pivotal phases of Pauline doctrine. It was the descent and mooring of the soul "to the ruinous bonds of the body" that brought the spirit of man under the dominion of what Paul calls "the law"--of Fate, Karma and Necessity. This, too, was "the bondage in Egypt" of the Old Testament. On her own high plane the soul was in a state of liberty, "the glorious liberty of the sons of God." Only by her incarceration in a vessel whose constitutional functions were under the laws of physics and chemistry was she subjected to the rule of matter. The Greek philosophers declared that her release from this bondage was to be won only through the discipline of "philosophy." It taught the earnest man to abjure the motions of the flesh and to rise to the delight and freedom of the noetic consciousness. Paul couched the process in the language of religion, and called it spirituality or "grace."
 

Harikrish

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Sep 2, 2014
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Bono - Difference Between Grace and Karma

“It’s a mind-blowing concept that the God who created the universe might be looking for company, a real relationship with people, but the thing that keeps me on my knees is the difference between grace and karma…You see, at the center of all religions is the idea of karma. You know, what you put out comes back to you; an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, or in physics – in physical laws – every action is met by an equal or opposite one. Its clear to me that karma is at the very heart of the universe. I’m absolutely sure of it. And yet, along comes this idea called grace to upend all that “As you reap, so will you sow” stuff. Grace defies reason and logic. Love interrupts, if you like, the consequences of your actions, which in my case is very good news indeed, because I’ve done a lot of stupid stuff. That’s between me and God. But I’d be in big trouble if karma was going to finally be my judge. I’d be in deep @#$%. It doesn’t excuse my mistakes, but I’m holding out for grace. I’m holding out that Jesus took my sins onto the cross because I know who I am, and I hope I don’t have to depend on my own religiosity. The point of the death of Christ is that Christ took on the sins of the world so that what we put out did not come back to us, and that our sinful nature does not reap the obvious death. That’s the point. It should keep us humbled….its not our own good works that get through the gates of heaven…If only we could be a bit more like Him, the world would be transformed. All I do is get up on the cross of the ego; the bad hangover, the bad review. When I look at the cross of Christ, what I see up there is all my @#$% and everybody else’s. So I ask myself a question a lot of people have asked: Who is this man? And was He who He said He was, or was he just a religious nut? And there it is, and that’s the question. And no one can talk you into it or out of it.” Bono on the difference between Grace and Karma | Resistance & Renewal

What is grace? What is Karma? Are they compatible? Are they mutually exclusive?
The concept of Karma is not that foreign to Christianity. "As you sow so shall you reap." Jesus from a Hindu's viewpoint had bad Karma. He was rejected, tried, convicted and finally put to death. His return is also consistent with Hinduism...ie. Jesus lived a pure life and with his death, he will return as a reincarnate in a higher form than his previous life. Even here the Bible supports his elevated second coming where he will return with all authority over heaven and earth.

Matthew 28:18 Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Grace is second chances. You can live a pure life and advance your status in the next life or return in a lower form. But to think you can get something for nothing. You are not alone in that belief either. The Jews believed they had the God of Abraham in their camp forever . We know all the trials and tribulations that have followed the Jews since.