God sent the iron from heaven

[Serryah]

If a seed is inserted in good soil, it grows; if it is inserted in a salt land, it fails; if a seed is cast somewhere, it might be that some birds will eat it.
Therefore, if you do not like it, perhaps somebody else will accept it; and if he does not accept it, others may do or not. If not so, then I myself hopes the reward from God Most Gracious.

The parable of the good word in the Quran 14: 24-25, which mean:
(24. Do you not see how God presents a parable [about the righteous work and the good word?] ––
a good word [which man says a ] is like a good tree b : its kind is permanent [on earth c ], and its reproduced trees are [taken] into heaven d ,
25. Giving its fruit at all times e with its Lord's leave.
God surely propounds parables to people f that they may receive admonition.)
........................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

24 a Which is the word of the exclusive devotion to God alone: that is to say : ―"No god but God", or other words of mentioning God like the praising and the glorification [that is to say: ―"Praise is due to God", or ―"Glory be to God".]
24 b It is every tree with fruit, but without spikes, and it gives shade from the sun to anyone who sits under it.
24 c It means: the material tree remains on earth, and of it, many trees will be derived by means of pruning, or seeding by planting the seed to be another tree.
24 d It means: The ethereal trees derived from it, will be taken by angels to heaven to be among the trees of Paradise. That is because trees and fruits have spirits, just as how man and animal have spirits. So if one of the World trees is cut and is dead, then its spirit will not die, but will live for all years and eras, being fresh and fruitful with much many branches full of fruits; its leaves will not fall and it will not be depleted of its fruits; it does not need water, neither any manure; neither will coldness nor any disease kills it. I have fully explained about Paradise (or the Garden) and Trees of Paradise, in my book: Man after Death.

25 e It means: The ethereal tree gives you the fruit always, and has no limited time or season. This is like His saying – be glorified – in the Quran 13: 37, which means: (Its food is perpetual, and [likewise] its shade!) It means: Its fruit exists on trees always.
25 f To let people understand and to make their minds comprehend that easily.

http://quran-ayat.com/pret/14.htm#a14_24

You cannot force someone to accept your version of God. Centuries of fighting between all religions should have shown you that by now. And by the continual beratement on this board that you get, you've got to realize no one here will follow your version of God, either.

By your own words years ago, you have forced people here to either accept your version of God or be "Damned". I'm not sure any God is for forcing people into worshiping. If They are, then that's not a God worth following.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

it might be a way to get His guidance.

I have neither a need nor a desire for his guidance. According to you he's been deliberately misguiding me for years as a wrongdoer and I have no interest in getting guidance from someone who'd do that to me. More to the point, until someone can come up with a reasonable explanation for all the unnecessary suffering in this world he's supposedly created, I will continue to consider him to be an evil monster created from the superstitious imaginings of people who had no real knowledge of the reality around them. Walk through a pediatric cancer ward some time and explain to me the suffering of the innocents you see there. Explain to me why there are insects who lay their eggs in the moisture around eyes and their larvae then eat the eyeball, causing great pain and blindness, mostly among children. Consider the untold misery caused by parasites and bacteria and viruses and such. He could have created a world without those things that afflict us, but he didn't, and I find it impossible to square that with the notion of an all-good, all-wise, all-powerful deity. Much simpler to decide that the postulated deity doesn't exist, then there are explanations for those things in the impersonal workings of the forces of nature. No religion in history has ever come up with an adequate theodicy, it's religion's greatest single failing, and in my carefully considered opinion invalidates it entirely, that deity is a failed hypothesis that belongs on the junk pile of discarded ideas.

 

[Torch light]

So you insist and persist on your disbelief and disrespect of God Most Gracious: the Creator. And you will regret when the time for repentance is expired at or just before the hour of death.
Certainly, God is more Merciful than all of you, atheists, claiming your mercy and sympathy, but let everyone see the truth about himself and his crimes which he hides from others.. so do not disregard the line of everyone's lifetime and their sins and mistakes deliberately and non-deliberately. But they keep ignoring and blinding themselves until time passes by at the end of man's life.

(And the book [of deeds: in which their sins and crimes are written and recorded] will be set in place, and you will see the disbelieving criminals fearful of what recorded in it [of their sins and crimes], and they will say: "Woe to us! What a book is this that does not leave behind any [sin] whether minor or major without listing it [in the book!?]"
And they will find [the requital, of] what they did, confronting them; for your Lord does not wrong anyone [by admitting him into the Fire without crimes and disbelief.)
As in the Quran 18: 49.
http://quran-ayat.com/pret/18.htm#a18_49

And in the Quran 67: 10, which means:
(And they will say [in Hell]: "Had we but listened [to the words of the messengers] or pondered [that to which they invited us], we would not have been among the inmates of the Blaze.)
See the great ayat 67: 6-11 related to this aya:
http://quran-ayat.com/pret/67.htm#a67_6

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

"Most gods have the morals and manners of a spoiled child."
--Robert A. Heinlein

 

[Torch light]

Walk through a pediatric cancer ward some time and explain to me the suffering of the innocents you see there. Explain to me why there are insects who lay their eggs in the moisture around eyes and their larvae then eat the eyeball, causing great pain and blindness, mostly among children. Consider the untold misery caused by parasites and bacteria and viruses and such. He could have created a world without those things that afflict us, but he didn't,

God - be glorified - created the material World which is only very temporary for the purpose of the Hereafter which lasts forever.
He made this World a test for the Next Life and gave man the free will to choose whatever he likes and to do whatever he does... but with many points of consideration:
God instructed man to act righteously and to live in peace with others and that he should not wrong others.
If he works good works, God will guide him to worship Him and to be good with people, and in this way, he will be successful and go to Paradise in Heaven in the Next everlasting Life.
But if he chooses to do evil deeds and to wrong others, God will misguide him and will let him have more money and to live in contumacy, and in this way, he will lose and go to Hell in the Hereafter. After God gave him respite: his whole life time in order to repent and reform his deeds.

So these diseases are among the testing of people: to see will they be patient or will blaspheme?
And to see will he be thankful for all the blessings that He gives him.

Moreover, these diseases will let man study and learn more about the physiology and pathology of his body.

In addition, these diseases of children are some way to punish or to test their fathers because of their sins and disobedience, so that they might repent and these difficulties will be a lesson to them that they should refrain from disbelief and transgression.

And this life in the World is only temporary, and all of them will go to the lasting Hereafter.

The story of Prophet Job is a lesson to others: how he persevered patiently and did not blaspheme, and consequently he became successful in this life of the World and in the Hereafter.

Quran 22: 83-84, which means:
(83. And [mention to them] Job [and his story] when he implored his Lord [after the adversity afflicted him, and said:] "I have been inflicted with adversity, but You are the Most Merciful of all the merciful."
84. So We answered his [prayer], and relieved him of the suffering [from the pains and the disease] that he had, and We gave him his family [in this life of the World], and their equal number with them [in the Hereafter], as a mercy from Us [to him], and a lesson for worshipers.)

So for Job, this was a test, and he passed the exam successfully: he did not blaspheme and persevered patiently.
Therefore, after he prayed God, He removed his distress, cured him of his disease, and restored for him his wealth: the cattle and the crops more than before. And God gave him other ten children (so in the Hereafter he will have 20 of his sons and daughters.)

See about these ayat and the great story of Prophet Job - peace to him - in the following link:
http://quran-ayat.com/pret/21.htm#a21_83

 

[Torch light]

So repentance is the hope for man: because all men do many wrongs in their lifetime, but the believer will regret and repent, while the disbeliever will neither regret nor repent.
God likes the repenting and will forgive them, and He dislikes those who insist on their wrongs and do not repent or regret, and may give them more money and more blessings to let them indulge more in their wrongs, and God gives man respite till his last hour in this life.
And God concealed the unknown hour of death of every man because all men will repent at their death hour, which will be useless and unacceptable.
Therefore, the wise man should repent from the present hour and should not postpone it, because he does not know if will he keep living until tomorrow. And will not be accepted also when the portents of Doomsday come:
Repentance will not be accepted on that day

 

[Dexter Sinister]

... the disbeliever will neither regret nor repent.

That's entirely false, and a rather jaded view of human nature, but it's entirely predictable that you'd see things only in terms of their extremes. Of course I've made mistakes, everybody does, and I've certainly regretted them and tried to make amends where and when when I could, sometimes successfully, sometimes not, and sometimes you just have to live with the consequences of your errors and bear up as best you can. But I've certainly never done anything deserving of eternal damnation, unless Allah is so petty that he'd condemn me for refusing to believe in him on such bad evidence.

And you're seriously trying to argue that childhood cancers are to teach parents a lesson in humility? What about the suffering of the children, what's that supposed to teach them in their innocence? I think you've also misread the story of Job. Job loses everything, home, family, health, wealth, in what amounts to a bet between god and the devil that Job will remain steadfast in his faith despite his hardships, and he does, and eventually all is restored to him, but his original family and home are all gone. Having more children does not compensate for the death of others, that's a permanent ongoing tragedy few parents ever fully recover from. In the end Job confronts god about what's been done to him, and god's response is essentially to refuse to explain anything, because he's god and can do whatever he wants and we just have to take it. That's not a loving deity, that's an arrogant jerk not worthy of respect. The story of Job is the Bible's only attempt to come to terms with the problem of evil, and it fails to explain anything except that god's ways are not our ways and he's under no obligation to justify anything to us. Not very helpful.

 

[Jinentonix]

That's entirely false, and a rather jaded view of human nature, but it's entirely predictable that you'd see things only in terms of their extremes. Of course I've made mistakes, everybody does, and I've certainly regretted them and tried to make amends where and when when I could, sometimes successfully, sometimes not, and sometimes you just have to live with the consequences of your errors and bear up as best you can. But I've certainly never done anything deserving of eternal damnation, unless Allah is so petty that he'd condemn me for refusing to believe in him on such bad evidence.

And you're seriously trying to argue that childhood cancers are to teach parents a lesson in humility? What about the suffering of the children, what's that supposed to teach them in their innocence? I think you've also misread the story of Job. Job loses everything, home, family, health, wealth, in what amounts to a bet between god and the devil that Job will remain steadfast in his faith despite his hardships, and he does, and eventually all is restored to him, but his original family and home are all gone. Having more children does not compensate for the death of others, that's a permanent ongoing tragedy few parents ever fully recover from. In the end Job confronts god about what's been done to him, and god's response is essentially to refuse to explain anything, because he's god and can do whatever he wants and we just have to take it. That's not a loving deity, that's an arrogant jerk not worthy of respect. The story of Job is the Bible's only attempt to come to terms with the problem of evil, and it fails to explain anything except that god's ways are not our ways and he's under no obligation to justify anything to us. Not very helpful.

Synopsis of the story of Job. God destroys a man's life just to prove a point.

That's just fucking sociopathic.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

Synopsis of the story of Job. God destroys a man's life just to prove a point.

That's just fucking sociopathic.

Yeah, but Gawd restored it all!

Well, except for that whole "his whole family is dead" thing.

 

[Jinentonix]

Yeah, but Gawd restored it all!

Well, except for that whole "his whole family is dead" thing.

Yeah, funny that. God can take lives but he can't bring them back. Not much a god, really.

 

[Tecumsehsbones]

Yeah, funny that. God can take lives but he can't bring them back. Not much a god, really.

Nope, Gawd did. Twice. Lazarus and Hay-soos.

Guess Gawd don't care that much about the rest of us.

 

[Jinentonix]

Nope, Gawd did. Twice. Lazarus and Hay-soos.

Actually, Jesus resurrected Lazarus. And as far Jesus' resurrection goes, that was after some supposedly omnipotent god let a bunch of puny mortals torture and murder his "son".

Guess Gawd don't care that much about the rest of us.

Nope, he don't. Because he can't because he doesn't exist.

 

[Torch light]

That's entirely false, and a rather jaded view of human nature, but it's entirely predictable that you'd see things only in terms of their extremes. Of course I've made mistakes, everybody does, and I've certainly regretted them and tried to make amends where and when when I could, sometimes successfully, sometimes not, and sometimes you just have to live with the consequences of your errors and bear up as best you can. But I've certainly never done anything deserving of eternal damnation, unless Allah is so petty that he'd condemn me for refusing to believe in him on such bad evidence.

So it is between you and God. And between everyone and God.

And you're seriously trying to argue that childhood cancers are to teach parents a lesson in humility? What about the suffering of the children, what's that supposed to teach them in their innocence?

It is a test of the patience of the parents.
In the following post I'll speak about this point.

I think you've also misread the story of Job. Job loses everything, home, family, health, wealth, in what amounts to a bet between god and the devil that Job will remain steadfast in his faith despite his hardships, and he does, and eventually all is restored to him, but his original family and home are all gone.

True.

Having more children does not compensate for the death of others, that's a permanent ongoing tragedy few parents ever fully recover from.

This is answered in the following post.

In the end Job confronts god about what's been done to him, and god's response is essentially to refuse to explain anything, because he's god and can do whatever he wants and we just have to take it. That's not a loving deity, that's an arrogant jerk not worthy of respect.

This may be in the Torah of Ezra, not in the Quran.

The story of Job is the Bible's only attempt to come to terms with the problem of evil, and it fails to explain anything except that god's ways are not our ways and he's under no obligation to justify anything to us. Not very helpful.

This may be in the Torah of Ezra, not in the Quran.

 

[Torch light]

Parents losing children through disease or accident:

It is very hard on the heart of the father and the mother, and it is a test of their patience. If they persevere patiently God may compensate them with other children or give them better children than the diseased ones or children with better consequences for the future of the parents.

Moreover, these children are not taken to account and will go to Paradise in heaven. So if the parents are believers and monotheists and righteous, they will also go to Paradise and find their children before them in Paradise and will be happy with them.

This is what happened to Prophet Job, he was later on given ten new children in the life of the World, and in Paradise, he will find his dead children living and will be delighted with them, in addition to his new children. So the total will be 20 sons and daughters.

Similarly, the children of Prophet Mohammed, the boys, died in their early childhood, and when he saw the children of the idolaters, he looked to them with a long look, and God forbade him from that:
Quran 20: 131, which means:
(But [O Mohammed] do not [covet and] keep looking at [the little sons] We have bestowed on some parents among the [associaters]; [such little sons are] the 'splendor‘ of the life of this World b , in order that We may test them thereby c . Your Lord‘s provision [in the Hereafter] is far better [for you] and more lasting [than the provision in the life of the World.]d)
.....................................................................................................................................................................................................................

b It means: The children are the lure and enjoyment of the life in the World; with whom their parents enjoy themselves.
c i.e. We try or test them with this enjoyment, to see if they will be grateful or ungrateful.
d Because you will find them before you in Paradise, to enjoy their presence and play with them, which will be better for you than their staying in the World and that they will grow older, and you will be in Paradise without children to enjoy yourself with.

quran-ayat.com/pret/20.htm#a20_131
quran-ayat.com/pret/15.htm#a15_88

 

[Torch light]

In the story of Prophet Moses - peace be to him, God - be glorified - sent an angel in the form of a man to teach Moses some lessons in patience and that he should not hasten in affairs.
One of these lessons: the angel (in the form of a man) struck a child on his heart and killed him, Moses objected to him: why did he do such a crime to kill an innocent child?
The angel, later on, explained to him that he did this according to God's command and that that child would be arrogant against his righteous parents and would torture them with his disobedience and disbelief.
Quran 18: 81-82, which means:
("81. And as for the boy [whom I killed]; his parents were believers [and the boy was a disbeliever], so we i feared the [boy] would trouble his parents with [his] rebellion and disbelief [when he becomes older.]"
82. "So we [the angels] wanted that their Lord might instead give them [another son] better than him j in righteousness k and nearer [to his father] in kinship l .")
........................................................................................................................................................................................................................

81 i i.e. the angels in charge of the affairs of believers.
82 j i.e. better than the boy whom he killed.
82 k It means: a righteous boy, not disobedient to God.
82 l It means: from among his kindred. So his father married another wife out of his kindred, and she bore for him a son who grew with good raising and became a righteous man who worshiped God and invited people to worship Him.

http://quran-ayat.com/pret/18.htm#a18_81

 

[petros]

Holy Moses smell the roses!

 

[Dexter Sinister]

So it is between you and God. And between everyone and God.

Granting the premise that god as you believe him to be exists at all, that would be true. So what's the point of all your preaching here? It can't make the slightest difference to anyone.

This is answered in the following post.

Your answer is that all will be set right in the next life, for those who behave properly. That's the best answer any religion has ever come up with for the problem of theodicy. There's not the slightest evidence that there's a next life, just some unsupported claims in various scriptures, and for someone like me whose beliefs about the world are driven by evidence, that's not an acceptable answer. It's wishful thinking, an absolutely unverifiable solution that just avoids having to think any more deeply about it.

 

[Torch light]

The story of Prophet Job
In the Quran, it is cited in at least 2 sooras: Soora 21 & Soora 38.

Quran 21: 83-84, which mean:
(83. And [mention to them] Job a [and his story] when he implored his Lord [after the adversity afflicted him, and said:] "I have been inflicted with adversity, but You are the Most Merciful of all the merciful b."
84. So We answered his [prayer], and relieved him of the suffering [from the pains and the disease] that he had, and We gave him his family [in this life of the World c], and their equal number with them [in the Hereafter d], as a mercy from Us [to him], and a lesson for worshipers e.)
...............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

b So bless me with Your mercy, and relieve me of the adversity.

c It means: We gave him children equal to the number of those who had died under the wall; they were seven sons and three daughters.
d It means: Those who died were equal to them in number; therefore, the total number of his sons in the Hereafter are fourteen, and his daughters are six.
e i.e. as an admonition or lesson to them about patience, so they will forbear patiently when they hear about his story, and will not blaspheme.

The story:
Job had seven sons and three daughters; he also had of the cattle: seven thousand sheep, three thousand camels, five hundred cows, in addition to five hundred asses; moreover, he had many servants.
Therefore, Satan envied him for his piety and his righteous intention with God, and he said: “Had he not had such bounties, he would not have been grateful!”
So God – be glorified – said to Satan: “I give you power over his wealth.”
Then the people of Sheba came and plundered his cattle and riding animals, and killed his servants. In addition, his sons and daughters were gathering for eating in one of their houses, and a storm blew and plucked the wall of the house, which then fell on them and they all died.
A man then came and told him about that, so he prostrated himself in
worship to God, and said: “I was born naked out of my mother’s womb, and I will be returned naked: the Lord gave and the Lord took.” So he thanked for his affliction and did not blaspheme.
The Devil said: “If his health is good, he will not blaspheme and will not be ungrateful; so set me on his health and see how his ungratefulness will be.”
God – be glorified – said: “I have set you on his health except for his heart, eyes, and tongue.”
So Satan came and afflicted him with leprosy (which is also called the elephant disease), and he continued as such for some time, and did not blaspheme and was not ungrateful.

One day, his wife came and saw him sitting on the ash and holding a piece of pottery with which he itched his body, so she said to him: “Till now, you show patience about the affliction!?”
He said to her: “Will we accept the blessing from God and not accept the hardship?” And he did not blaspheme or show ungratefulness, in spite of all his trial and affliction.

Then when he asked God to remove his suffering and cure him of his disease, Gabriel came and said to him: “A water fountain has sprung near to this place, so go yourself to it, bathe in it, and drink of its water, and you will be cured of your disease. So he went to the water spring and bathed in it, and was cured of his disease.
God also gave him wealth and livestock more than he had had in the beginning, and there were born for him seven sons and three daughters. The first daughter he named Jemimah, the second Keziah, and the third Keren-Happuch.

Job lived a hundred and forty years following this affliction. His story is written in the Torah collection, the Book of Job.

Quran 38: 41-44, which mean:
(41. And mention [to them the story of] Our servant: Job, when he called to his Lord a [saying]: "Satan has afflicted me with the large stones b [of the wall, killing my sons thereby] c , and with distress [and caused my illness.]"
42. [And We said to him:] Run forth [with joy] upon your own foot [to the water-spring, and bathe in it e ]; this is a cool washing-place and a drink.
43. And We offered to him his family [in the life of the World] and the like number of them [in the Hereafter], as a grace from Us [to him], and an admonition to men of understanding f .
44. And [We said to him, when he swore to lash his wife one hundred lashes:] Take with your hands a bundle of reeds [: an old dry palm-date cluster], and strike [your wife] with it [instead of the one hundred lashes], but never break you oath.g We found him full of patience and forbearance; how excellent a slave [of God, Job was]; he was ever turning [to God h .])

See the detailed explanation in the following link:
http://quran-ayat.com/pret/38.htm#a38_41

Therefore, Job did not object to God, and neither did he blame Him, but on the contrary, he persevered patiently and did not blaspheme.

 

[Torch light]

There's not the slightest evidence that there's a next life,

The disbelief about the Next Life or the Hereafter ( the first part of it is the Afterlife that starts immediately following the death).. the disbelief and even the uncertainty and doubting is considered a major guilt and an addition to the unbelief about God Himself.

It indicates also that the disbeliever about the Hereafter is not just and he is a wrongdoer: because the Hereafter is the life of justice and requital of the wronged against the one who wronged him.

This has been stated in many ayat of the Quran, like this aya 16: 22, which means:
([O people,] your God is One God. As for those who do not believe in the Hereafter: their hearts deny [the truth], and they are arrogant [to comply with it.])

A detailed explanation is here: http://quran-ayat.com/pret/16.htm#a16_22

 

[Serryah]

The disbelief about the Next Life or the Hereafter ( the first part of it is the Afterlife that starts immediately following the death).. the disbelief and even the uncertainty and doubting is considered a major guilt and an addition to the unbelief about God Himself.

It indicates also that the disbeliever about the Hereafter is not just and he is a wrongdoer: because the Hereafter is the life of justice and requital of the wronged against the one who wronged him.

This has been stated in many ayat of the Quran, like this aya 16: 22, which means:
([O people,] your God is One God. As for those who do not believe in the Hereafter: their hearts deny [the truth], and they are arrogant [to comply with it.])

A detailed explanation is here: http://quran-ayat.com/pret/16.htm#a16_22

The easiest way to prove there is a next life, is to show proof to people.

Not words.

Proof.