Failed states, rougue states, and America

Finder

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zoofer said:
Noam Chomsky, Ward Churchill, Mikey Moore, Donald Duck.

Most people would opt for Donald.
:laughing4:


*scratches head* damnit.... do I have to chose.... *kicks a stone*

zoofer, like any other political thinker, his theories are mostly theories and should never be put into practice as a doctrin, but being critical of any system is a good thing and he points out many flaws and many inhuman activities being done which we should really work hard on turning around.
 

aeon

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I think not said:
Toro said:
I think not said:
Good book, I have a better one for you, Noam Chomskys: Understanding Power, he claims Lester Pearson, you know him right? The Nobel Peace Prize winner? Semi god like hero figure in Canada? According to Noam Chomsky, good old Lester is a war criminal. You think he's right?

:lol: :lol:

Do you mean Noam Chomsky, the tax-dodger?

Yes, the one who insists on applying standards to others yet has a hard time applying them to himself, what do you call that again?

Oh I know, A HYPOCRIT.



Ohh i see, in the other thread, you seems to like chomsky, but now he is an hypocryte.
 

sanch

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Apr 8, 2005
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Finder said:
zoofer said:
Noam Chomsky, Ward Churchill, Mikey Moore, Donald Duck.

Most people would opt for Donald.
:laughing4:


*scratches head* damnit.... do I have to chose.... *kicks a stone*

zoofer, like any other political thinker, his theories are mostly theories and should never be put into practice as a doctrin, but being critical of any system is a good thing and he points out many flaws and many inhuman activities being done which we should really work hard on turning around.

My Major point of interest is how people profit from the poverty industry. There are people with better motives who can do this same form of analysis and are not as compromised as Chomsky is.
 

I think not

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aeon said:
Ohh i see, in the other thread, you seems to like chomsky, but now he is an hypocryte.

A hypocrite is the person who applies to others standards that he refuses to apply to himself --- Noam Chomsky

When he condemns the oil and weapons industries and buys stocks for those industries he condemns, what other word would you like me to use?
 

Curiosity

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Self-portrait - Gnome Chumpsky

 

Curiosity

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sanch said:
Finder said:
zoofer said:
Noam Chomsky, Ward Churchill, Mikey Moore, Donald Duck.

Most people would opt for Donald.
:laughing4:


*scratches head* damnit.... do I have to chose.... *kicks a stone*

zoofer, like any other political thinker, his theories are mostly theories and should never be put into practice as a doctrin, but being critical of any system is a good thing and he points out many flaws and many inhuman activities being done which we should really work hard on turning around.

My Major point of interest is how people profit from the poverty industry. There are people with better motives who can do this same form of analysis and are not as compromised as Chomsky is.

Sanch

How do people profit from the poverty industry?

Try the ACLU - how about Jesse Jackson who has run his empire on the very basis that people be helped temporarily and not permanently - Al Sharpton does the very same thing as well as many other Reverends such as Louis Farrakhan.....

The black people in America are used to running to the "godfather" for their assistance because that is how their parents did it and they are still clinging to the old ways of not standing up for themselves....

It is slowly changing but even now those representatives in the legislature in the U.S. are elected because of the "system of poverty" - which translates to a system of wealth for a few....

Poverty capitalism - I believe it was not what MLK envisioned. His heirs and family members did however and continued down the "helpless path" of creating victims.

It was the history of the black people in America which got me on the study of how governments can oppress people even when offering assistance. Confusing? It was at first but now many black intellectuals are fighting it - Bill Cosby's recent lectures are beginning to make some inroads and he is the most publicized.
 

darkbeaver

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RE: Failed states, rougue

If it turns out that Lester was a war criminal we'll dig him up and hang him O/K. ITN you seem to be threatened by Chomsky and socialism in general but as much as you have critisized every writer I have mentioned you have not yet recommended any alternatives to socialism, nor any alternatives to the state of modern social political affairs, you are stalled at right wing critic, and like the dinosaur can,t evolve beyond your position and offer any solutions.
 

I think not

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Re: RE: Failed states, rougue

darkbeaver said:
If it turns out that Lester was a war criminal we'll dig him up and hang him O/K. ITN you seem to be threatened by Chomsky and socialism in general but as much as you have critisized every writer I have mentioned you have not yet recommended any alternatives to socialism, nor any alternatives to the state of modern social political affairs, you are stalled at right wing critic, and like the dinosaur can,t evolve beyond your position and offer any solutions.

I didn't say Pearson was a war criminal, Chomsky did. I think Wrong, Robertson and Pearson were great Canadians, they had a vision for Canada. All three men believed Canada should be engaged, and if they could see how borderline isolationist Canada has become, they would be spinning in their graves.

And I don't feel threatened by Chomsky or Socialism, I merely dislike both of them. As for my solution I have long been an advocate of some sort of mixed system. Socialism isn't the answer in my opinion, and neither is capitalism. I have yet to see a state fully immersed in socialist policies that have actually benefited the people. Canada is doing fairly well in a balancing act between the two, you need alot of work, but you're doing pretty well in my opinion.
 

sanch

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WC I am not sure MLK would have been able to recognize how the alleviation of injustice and poverty could be turned into a viable and very profitable economic pursuit.

For the last few decades there have been a lot of programs directed at improving conditions in the inner-city. These programs have failed. Why? Most people point their finger at corruption in the inner-city. But the actual amount of money that reaches the inner-city is miniscule. I participated as a volunteer for a couple of years in a few of these programs and the amount of money allocated to the intervention itself shrunk very quickly to less than 1% of the grant. This did not prevent the major beneficiaries of the grant money from blaming everything on the participants. It’s a big scam.

Now the newest academic trend is the study of the various disparities that exist in the US. The key word here is study and not elimination. How many studies are needed to prove something that is blatantly obvious? A lot especially when they provide overhead to Harvard and the like. It’s a crafty way to ensure the Ivy elite can keep their standard of living up. But no one is going to write a book called the Rougue Ivies are they?

I think there definitely are cultural factors that impede mobility in the inner-city but I don’t think the culture of entitlement is one of them. First African American males have never really benefited from any of the entitlement programs. Neither have visible minorities in Canada. But when the programs don’t work they always blame the supposed beneficiaries of the programs. This was obvious with people focusing on corruption among the Afghan warlords and President Karzai. It’s the same attitude well we tried and they either steal what we give them or squander the resources. It’s crazy.
 

Curiosity

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Sanch

When I came to the U.S. I brought with me many preconceived images of what it would be like (mostly from movies)...my sister and her family are staunch liberals and perpetuated the conversation regarding minorities as victims of the systems....

In university the professors continued the threads of victims....

When I was interning I learned much about the systems - both state and local and found that rarely were the ideals of "doing it for yourself" taught - nor was education stressed to the kids.

The old Italian "Don" system which preceded welfare in this country - came from Europe and the minorities adopted it as their way to security - "buy me for my vote".... or "my allegience in your cause"... or whatever was being sold... Rainbow? That's a joke.

Until I literally ran into (while jogging) a wonderful black woman about eight years ago....who has become one of my most valued friends. She fought the system, her welfare-crazed parents with six kids (more money)....dad never at home... she also fought the fact she was a woman....and is now a city council member, with her own company and can afford to effect some major changes in where she feels the basic problem lies: In education of the young.

I have listened to her, learned from her, compared what she tells me with what is happening out there....read her recommended list of the new "explorers" for the black American people....and found she was right on with her information.

My greatest learning experiences have for me been people. It is what I hope to find in forums. Sometimes it works...sometimes it doesn't....

I know you know exactly what I mean. The cries of "racism" when discussing this kind of topic used to terrify me. Not any more.
We know and recognize those who are truly racist are those who keep the people from evolving into self-sufficient, self-motivated and independent people..... and so satisfied!
 

Finder

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I think not, I still stand by my argument that you were the worst communist ever in the history of communism, if you liked Chomsky. If there's one thing the left hates more then itself is people on the left which don't agree with you. lol. I mean Left wing Anarchists where pretty much the first to go in the soviet union, because they represented a totally different aspect of socialism then that of Communist (Marxist-Leninism).

Chomsky himself has pretty much fully admitted that his brand of socialism has come from the Anarchist or social libertian sect of socialism.

I understand why you may not like everything Chomsky says, as I too think it's a little off the wall at times and not realitic for people to act like angles all the time. However for his work against Marxist Leninism and taking an anti Marxist root in the 80's and 70's when Marxism was a big thing for political thinkers in those days to be and on the left if you wern't a marxist you'd be laughed out of the room, Chomsky took an unpopuler root as Orwell himself did and both paid a price. Only now that the soviet union has fallen and we can see fully how messed up it was we can see that Chomsky was indeed onto something back then and he has become populer in his life time which is amazing for any poltical scientist, a feat which Marx, Volitar, rossuea and many others could not do.

I do not fault Chomsky for not being perfect because all the political scientists in the world have made mistakes, hell Humans make mistakes and writing about humans you are bound to make mistakes too, but for his left wing stance against Soviet Communism and Marxism in general he should at least get our credit for doing that as we have given Orwell credit for his stance against Communism even though himself he was a former marxist turned demcoratic socialists after the spainish civil war.
 

jimmoyer

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Finder, I have much liked your reasonable nature despite
my disagreement with your stands.

But I'd like to challenge you, for a moment.

Personally I see you as beholden to stereotypical views
as you see the rightwing hold to their stereotypes.

Not much difference.

Not even much nuance in your stands compared
to a typical non-nuanced rightwinger stands.

Show me some nuance.

Show me something different, man.

Chomsky is quite a lightening rod for stereotypical
thinking by both leftwingers and rightwingers.

Let me give you a different uniquely American take
on Chomsky.

It's about negativity.

Americans all over, in either party, really really respond
to inspiration, the power of inspiration, and I have
intensely observed the dissatisfaction by both left
and right about negative politics, negative messages,
diatribes of anger, essays of complaining, fingerpointing
of blame.


We're all waiting.

For that one positive leader that unites us.

Unites the world.

The one that has a positive message.

A positive inspiration.


In this light, Chomsky leaves us all wanting.

No matter what politcial stripe you are.
 

Finder

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jimmoyer, no where once have I said that Chomsky holds all the answers we need. In deed he is an arm chair socialist, or political writer like them all. The few political writers who have been taken to action all have been bad ones in my view, such as Hitler and Stalin. I do not say nor claim Chomsky is right about everything, but he does highlight problems in our current governments be it soviet or American and I think if you sit down and read them you can easyly see he is on to something in some areas. However I do believe he is extremely critical of a human system bound to failurers and inhumanities at times and he offers little but a libertian system of anarchy to replace it with. But if our leaders were not blind, ignorant or just plane evil to the people they hurt while they are in power then we might come alone to actually fixing problems like pverity and international issues such as the middle east.

I think it is generally unfair for people to just discredit him with false agusations such as "He's a communists", "he's a hypocrit" when 1. It's just not true and I highly doubt that the person has actually read chomsky or the book in question himself, and two the history of political science is of the writer to be an arm chair political scientist and to just live his life and write. As I said I can think of very few writers who actually lived the life they wrote about and thought would be best for society because point in being that society did not exsist.

Besides that my main point for liking chomsky may not be in his writings about 9/11 or the USA, but the balls it took to write against the soviet union when most history/pol sci and many other professors were Marxists or at least marxist leaning.

My next point is many on the right are... ummm... right... That we shouldn't really go into Chomsky too much, he is no better then a Libertiarn, an Anarachist and such extremes could only spell danger which I do not think Chomsky himself can see. I do not doubt Chomsky was in favour the Mao's mini revolution, as it took power away from the communist party and into the hands of the students, which promoty killed intellectuals on the left and the right, communists and capitalists alike as well. But even if the ends justified the means, does any amount of death justify a percieved Utopia.. I do not think so and even though at the time Mao had believed he had unleashed true communism, it turned out that he unleashed a monster, which once was stopped was turned into nothing more then another type of Stalinism. So no the ends didn't even justify the means as the ends came out differently then expect and thus and means which murder, anarchy and subjection of any class or race are envolved are just wrong. I could fault Chomsky and Trotsky for this as well.

Now to answer your question, I think people like Jack Layton, are moderates on the left who are ready to work with the right for a better way to do things. Though the neo-cons and some conservatives would like to Demonize Jack Layton as a "Islamo-Fascaist", "Pinko" or anything else, I think he and the NDP in General are very, if not extremly moderate for the left and have actted so in Canada. Of course I do not say I believe in everything the NDP does is right because no matter what group you belong to you are going to disagree with some people in it, and even policy.

edit:didn't have time to check my grammer... Sorry
 

jimmoyer

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Finder, your sincerety will always be honored by me.

Chomsky a long time ago found out that many American
leaders were liars, secretive bastards, hypocrites.

He has pounded that drum forever, sometimes accurately
and sometimes just out of habit and sometimes out
of hyperbole.

He's a one trick pony.

That's okay with me.

But ultimately those who command our love are those
with the power of the positive, not an ignorant positive
but the wisdom and love of a positive inspiration.

I think you can agree with me on that.

I also think Chomsky should not be cancelled.

But he will forever lack the power of something greater.

He is that little dog biting at our hypocritical ankles.

We know our leaders have lied and continue to lie.

Sometimes we even like to know the details of those
lies.

But then, Finder....

But then, the human spirit needs something more.

I'll always listen to a Chomsky.

But my heart seeks a greater wisdom than Chomsky
can ever hope to offer.
 

Finder

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jimmoyer, first of all thanks for all the kind words. It's nice not being called something with laced angry in it such as being called a commie or a pinko or something like that just because I chose not to blindly follow one side or the other.

You are right and I do agree with you, at least on your last post. But you have to remember all the political scientists we now study in university faced the same hardships and admiration as Chomsky does now. Chomsky like them will always have his die hard followers and fanatics, but then there will be others who just add his work to so many others. Even today Marx is often studied in economics with Das Capital for his insight into the early indestrial age and capitalism.

If you compair Chomsky's life style to that of Volitair and Jean Rousseau, two of the great thinkers behind the revolution in France and influance over the American revolution. Both highly critized the monarchy and society in general, but lived it up in court bedding nobility and in fact largely the nobility eat up there books even though they were anti-nobility largely.
 

GreenFish66

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66% drop in oil prices..WOW! ..Were the prices that over inflated?...Man that's just criminal!
What were the oil profits again for the year??? WOW ...MAN!!..Looks like someone made some good money!!
Makes ya wonder if oil leaders saw somethin comin eh??!!
Where did all the money go??...
No reprecusions for their actions!!....So I am sure it will happen again!
Unbelievable!!
 

EagleSmack

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We're talking about Noam Chomsky, professor of linguistics at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and one of the foremost critics of U.S. foreign policy. Professor Chomsky has just released a new book titled "Failed States: The Abuse of Power and the Assault on Democracy."

It examines how the United States is beginning to resemble a failed state that cannot protect its citizens from violence and has a government that regards itself as beyond the reach of domestic or international law. In the book, professor Noam Chomsky presents a series of solutions to help rescue the nation from turning into a failed state.

They include: Accept the jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court and the World Court, sign the Kyoto protocols on global warming, let the United Nations take the lead in international crises, rely on diplomatic and economic measures rather than military ones in confronting terror, and sharply reduce military spending and sharply increase social spending.

Failed States, Rogue States and America | | AlterNet

Oh yeah... this is the same guy that says 9/11 Conspiracists are Kooks!