Does God exist?

Dexter Sinister

Unspecified Specialist
Oct 1, 2004
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. So why doesn't God need a cause? Because atheism's contention misunderstands the Law of Causality. The law does not say that everything has a cause, it says that everything that came to be needs a cause. God did not come to be.
Then how did he get here, where did he come from? Your original purpose was to prove that god exists using the argument from design. This simply assumes a priori that he exists, and is thus the logical fallacy called begging the question, which is to assume the truth of what you're trying to prove. You've merely shifted the hypothesis from "Everything has a cause" to "Everything but god has a cause," which explains nothing, it's just a refusal to explain.
We've got only two choices, either the universe is eternal or something outside of the universe is eternal
The fallacy of the false dichotomy. There are other options, and those are simply assumptions, not verifiable facts. You assume without justification that something must be eternal, a claim rooted in what I'm sure you'd agree are our limited human perceptions of what "eternal" actually means. Moreover, even if your assumption is correct, that something eternal caused the universe, that doesn't necessarily mean it was god. Maybe what's eternal is just geometry. Quarks, the simplest structures we know of, have three characteristics called colour, flavour, and charge, and they can't be pried apart. The three dimensions of space can't be pried apart either. So what's so great about 3 dimensions, as opposed to 2, or 4, or 24? Three dimensions, topologically, are what you need to make a knot that won't spontaneously unravel, and the simplest particles may be, according to some interpretations of string theory, knots in the fabric. That's pretty far out stuff, but at least it has some empirical grounding, unlike the claims for god's existence, and has some hope of leading to further insights.
...if he's the first cause then we can rationally believe(thru observation of the amazing universe) that he must be
Begging the question again, you try to prove he exists by assuming he exists.
1. Every design had a designer.
2. The universe has a highly complex design.
3. Therefore the universe had a designer.
The second postulate begs the question again, you assume the universe was designed in order to prove it was designed. You've offered that fallacy three times, first by assuming that god exists and the universe must therefore be designed, and here by assuming the universe is designed and therefore god must exist, and a third trivial time in between that follows from the first one. . Taken together, the argument is entirely circular: god exists because god exists,or alternatively, the universe is designed because the universe is designed. You've got nothing here but the same tired old fallacies I've seen many times before.
...the constants of the universe are so precise that it can be believed that it actually was designed...
I was pretty sure you'd get to this "fine tuning" argument too, and I'm expecting the "irreducible complexity" argument eventually as well. With regard to the anthropic constants arguments you've offered, you need to understand two things. First, the composition of the atmosphere is not now what it's always been, so any argument based on its current composition, and its degree of transparency to certain wavelengths, as an example of design has no merit. The presence of free oxygen in particular is a consequence of the life on this planet, not a cause of it, and other forms of life have adapted to it. Second, numbers like the gravitational coupling constant are irrelevant, they depend entirely on the system of units chosen to express them in. The only things that matter from the fine tuning perspective are the dimensionless constants, numbers that'd be the same no matter what system of units was chosen, like the ratio between the proton and electron mass, or the relative strengths of the gravitational and electromagnetic forces.

So, how significant is this fine tuning? Several physicists have done some calculations on this, and their conclusion is, not very. I can give you citations if you wish, but in the meantime, this is the way it is: the requirement for stars long-lived and stable enough for life to develop on planets orbiting them is easily met with the critical parameters varying over ten orders of magnitude. There's nowhere near 100 critical parameters either, there are about two dozen, and for most purposes only 4 are necessary to define most properties of matter and energy: the masses of the electron and proton, and the relative strengths of the electromagnetic and nuclear strong interactions. Based on what we now call the Standard Model, the universe does not appear to be fine tuned for them.
 

GreenFish66

House Member
Apr 16, 2008
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everything is energy and information realized...- the waste lol.....Body , mind and the transfer of energy....Soul!.....Have faith and There it is!....Chaos , complexity , relativity ,quantum all tied together with some string theory...Make anything possible!!.....Darwinism is another option.Can not be disproved!...Everything evolves !..to what ..God only knows?...Or Would ITt?....I like to believe ITt needs us as much as we need ITt..Helps us move forward into the future..In good faith!

What we are , what we will make to resemble ITt(for better or worse)..What ITt really is!
 

scratch

Senate Member
May 20, 2008
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I don't understand the above statement, is it just me 'or'?

While in my short debate with him, this puzzled me as well...after some thought I decided as he is determined to make his point he lost his train of thought.

It's not just you.
 

talloola

Hall of Fame Member
Nov 14, 2006
19,576
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I god wrote the bible, god is a bad writer.

If it was only kept on the appropriate shelf, it could be called a very good book.
'FICTION'.
And it was written by a bunch of imaginative 'men', who probably have many relatives
alive today,working in hollywood, writing screen plays.
The imagination is a wonderful thing, and has entertained thousands over the years.
What would we do without it.
Guess we would all be 'spocks'.
 

ahmadabdalrhman

Electoral Member
Sep 14, 2008
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I god wrote the bible, god is a bad writer.

It is a matter critical matter of faith for Muslims to believe in the original revelations that came down to Moses, David, Solomon and Jesus, just as it is is important for Muslims to believe in the revelation of the Quran that came to Muhammad, peace be upon him. The key word here however, is "original." As we all know the origin of the Bible is clouded with centuries of copying, translating and passing down information, now long lost with only copies of manuscripts remaining to remind us of what once was the Bible.
Additionally, it should be noted that Muslims do not seek to destroy the Christians or Jews belief in the Word of God, rather it is an obligation for Muslims to call to what is right and to halt that which is evil. Certainly, causing the "People of the Book" (as the Quran refers to Christians and Jews) to fall into disbelief and leave off any faith in God at all

of islamtomorrow
 
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Scott Free

House Member
May 9, 2007
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Uh huh... so they are peaceful, don't suicide bomb anyone, etc... the only thing they do is accept your idiot Muhammad like you accept Jesus... so you kill them for it...

Now doesn't it seem right that Christians should be killing you then?

Seems only fair huh?
 

Scott Free

House Member
May 9, 2007
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I don't become racial like you .

It's not racial!!! It's religion :roll:

I could care less what someone looks like or where they came from.

Nice attempt at changing the subject.

So tell me. You accept Christians and think they should stop killing Muslims but you don't accept Baha'i and kill them - even though they accept Islam. It's just that like you think Christianity is under your god they think Islam is under theirs.

So what is your logic?

How do you justify that - what your brothers do (since apparently you don't).

Why does Islam kill Baha'i yet want mercy from the Christians?

Why should mercy be shown to one and not the other.

An explanation is in order from your "religion of peace."
 

ahmadabdalrhman

Electoral Member
Sep 14, 2008
379
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It's not racial!!! It's religion :roll:

I could care less what someone looks like or where they came from.

Nice attempt at changing the subject.

I know you know If you ill-treat me love to me to ill-treat messenger of god :angryfire:

that is racial ,


So tell me. You accept Christians and think they should stop killing Muslims but you don't accept Baha'i and kill them - even though they accept Islam. It's just that like you think Christianity is under your god they think Islam is under theirs.

So what is your logic?

How do you justify that - what your brothers do (since apparently you don't).

Why does Islam kill Baha'i yet want mercy from the Christians?

the iran not truth muslim him believe of Khomeini not messenger muhamad

the islam no need to mercy of any one of human

him the religion the faster ,

and him the win in the end

Why should mercy be shown to one and not the other.

An explanation is in order from your "religion of peace.

the iran not truth muslim him believe of Khomeini not messenger muhamad

messenger muhamad in bible

but Baha'i not in quran
 

china

Time Out
Jul 30, 2006
5,247
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Ask yourself a question ;who am I ? find an answer .Can you?
I am truly aware that unless you can find the answer to this question everything that is in or outside of you ( which includes "searching for God") is only an illusion , make believe .
 

Dexter Sinister

Unspecified Specialist
Oct 1, 2004
10,168
539
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Regina, SK
Ask yourself a question ;who am I ? find an answer .Can you?
Yes, I can find an answer to that, at least for myself, that's one of life's easiest questions. I can't answer it for anybody else of course, and I wouldn't try, but I certainly know who * I* am, and I have no memory of ever not knowing. I was an adolescent in the 1960s when a lot of people seemed to be trying to "find" themselves by backpacking around Europe or joining communes or drugging themselves into insensibility, and it always seemed to me that if you can't "find" yourself, whatever the Hell anyone thinks that means, when you're straight and sober and at home, you aren't going to find yourself anywhere.
 

ahmadabdalrhman

Electoral Member
Sep 14, 2008
379
4
18
www.watchislam.com
Ask yourself a question ;who am I ? find an answer .Can you?
I am truly aware that unless you can find the answer to this question everything that is in or outside of you ( which includes "searching for God") is only an illusion , make believe .

all we the human descender of adam the god creating him of mud .
the god creating we even we adoring him , and the god send to we the message from the messengers
and the the people part to 2
1- happy the people they the faith of the god and the messengers of god
do not believe in god just one god
and they go to the heaven
and the god awarding to them nirvanas the rivers flowing of down it to ever
and muhammad (pbuh) last messenger of god

2- gangster the people don't faith in god and they lying the messengers of god
they go to hell , to ever , because they forget the god where they alive in this life , then after him death the god forget him in the hell , to ever

to answer all yours question here
we muslim have all answers..:smile:
 
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ahmadabdalrhman

Electoral Member
Sep 14, 2008
379
4
18
www.watchislam.com
Ask yourself a question ;who am I ? find an answer .Can you?
I am truly aware that unless you can find the answer to this question everything that is in or outside of you ( which includes "searching for God") is only an illusion , make believe .

all we the human descender of adam the god creating him of mud .
the god creating we even we adoring him , and the god send to we the message from the messengers
and the the people part to 2

1- happy the people they the people from they faith in the god and the messengers of god
do not believe in god just one god
and they go to the heaven
and the god awarding to them nirvanas the rivers flowing of down it to ever
and muhammad (pbuh) last messenger of god

2- gangster the people don't faith in god and they lying the messengers of god
they go to hell , to ever , because they forget the god where they alive in this life , then after him death the god forget him in the hell , to ever

to answer all yours question here
we muslims have all answers..:smile: