Discussion open - Tuesday, Dec. 2: Are you in favour of the government being brought

[Praxius]

I've not heard one person call the coalition illegal

Oh I did.... I believe in my above link you will hear a few of Harper's own words lying his ass off to the media.... and if my memory serves correctly, "An Illegal Power Grab."

Ah, here it is.....

Harper said ~ "illegal grab for power through the back door."

You best keep up with the times and information.

.....nobody that knows anything about Parliamentary democracy thinks this is illegal......but it is stupid, grossly incompetent, and detrimental to the country as a whole.

Then blame Harper for created this situation in the first place. He had plenty of time, more then enough years to show he can be a good leader and improve this country, and he hasn't done it..... therefore, the Coalition has my full support at present until they screw up.

Harper and his Dictatorship ways have had their run and it's over.

You spoke of The National.....did you see Duceppe speaking about how good this is for the cause of Quebec sovereignty???? Read separation and the destruction of Canada.

Whoopie Doo... if Sovereingty ever occurs, it won't occur in a manner that isn't in the best interests of everyone.

They try to pull a stunt in seperating, then the other parties say no, the Coalition disbands and we go back into an election..... but at least we'll have some time in between elections, rather then blowing another $300 million on another stupid arse Minority government that doesn't work.

It makes perfect sense.

I'm beginning to think the polls are the only place to settle this. The people will have a clear choice.....Harper and the CPC......or a left-wing coalition that includes the political enemies of the Confederation.

Take your pick.

The Coalition with the Political Enemies of Confederation.... pretty simple decision. That Seperatist fearmongering tripe isn't going to work on me or many others..... it has been clearly stated that the Bloc will not have any useful powers other then to support or not support the coalition..... plain and simple.

And once again, the Conservatives planned the exact same thing against Martin to try and topple the government... and they have had to get Bloc support many times in the past..... your example of fearmongering about how the country will be destroyed is hypocritical and trivial as a concern.

 

[Colpy]

Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong wrong

There is no garuntee that the bloc will vote for everything they want or that the other parties will let them get away with bloody murder for their own advantage.

They already have let them get away with "bloody murder". No more Federal services in any laguage but French in Quebec, increased cash flow to the already proportionally over-paid province, and Duceppe with veto power over the gov't.

Like to bet on Bombardier getting yet another billion bucks????

While Duceppe crows about how good this is for the Nation??? (he doesn't mean Canada)

This Coalition is not supposed to last forever, none of them are. Once they have differences, it's over and we go back to elections and back to the way things were. But until that time, if they are all in agreement with many of each other's plans on making sure people don't loose their jobs and homes and our economy get better..... then i'm all for it and if the work finally gets done and done right through a collective of differing parties representing differing people who all agree on the same subjects..... then get er done.

I would agree.....except for the inclusion of the Bloc......dishonourable and dangerous.....

If Harper can't control the government, if he can not meet and talk with the other parties for plans they all can agree on, and if he's going to continue to play these stupid little games and not get anything done, then kick his ass out and put people in who want to do the job.

That's how it works.... that is exactly how our parliamentary democracy is supposed to work.

250 years of it this year and it's finally starting to work properly (You can thank us Nova Scotians ;-))

Maybe that's the real issue here..... people are so upset that something is actually happening, and it's because for so long now, they were all used to not actually seeing our government work or do their jobs..... and now they are and people are getting all scared and worried.

Over nothing.

And I hope the Gov General allows this coalition to occur, and I hope she refuses Harper his little time out that he wants.... because all that will be for is a month or so to keep throwing out propaganda and ignorant fear to the masses of Canada.

It's a blaitent Bush Tactic and it's pathetic.

Added:

This is the episode of the National I was watching last night. They didn't have the segment where they were just talking about the politics and how it all works, but it was about 90% of the whole hour that they talked about, and it was quite..... educational:

CBC.ca | The National | Latest Broadcast

And you saw Duceppe talking about how wonderful it all was......not for Quebec, but for sovereignty...........

And we were not in econmoic "crisis", and it was not about that, it was about having political parties pulled off the public teat.

And a huge number of people are outraged at the BQ's inclusion.....

So let's go back to the polls.

Let the people decide.

Can you say Harper majority?????

 

[scratch]

JLM,

I agree with what you have said but PO & Co. crossed a line that they shouldn't have and they should pay politically.

An observation & opinion.

scratch

 

[Praxius]

just because ion's ago a bunch of "old white guy" syndrome men decided a coalition was democratic does not mean it is.

Um, yes it does.... did you make up the rules of the government to dictate to us what is right or wrong?

No. This is how it is, deal with it.

Our choice as the people was a minority government, and the coalition are denying us of that.

I didn't want a minority government, certainly not another damn Conservative Minority.... and we had one of the lowest voter turnout in our history this past election and it's getting worse, because nobody likes how this system works, there isn't one party that people can feel that connect to..... neither do I, but I still voted for the best logical choice and hoped for the best, only for the same crap to happen again, which it did.

And now there is an option of this collective of parties getting together and actually doing some work to bring together various ideals and concepts from accross the country with different lifestyles and income brackets..... and when put together is the majority of the vote, clearly detailing and following to a tee on how the whole process should be done..... and you're going to complain and moan that this isn't what everybody wants?

You don't speak for me, you speak for yourself.... learn it fast.

Go to an election let us pick, let them go into the election as a coalition instead of lying to us.

They haven't lied yet, the only idiot lying is Harper and he's looking like a nut job in doing so.

Goto another $300 million dollar election again in the current economic times? That is the stupidest option out of all of them, because the people already picked, and we got the exact same damn thing that we've all been complaining about for the last sum odd years......

Yeah, brilliant.

Then we get another Minority, and then we do this whole process again, and again and again until the entire nation is one big broke ass mofo and only one party stands and then we're into a dictatorship.....

One is actually true Democracy at work, and the other is the destruction of it if we keep doing what we are doing. This is why this option is the most logical.

Do I like it? A bit yes, and a bit no.... but we wouldn't be in this situation in the first place if Harper actually did his damn job in the first place and stopped acting like a dolt.

 

[Momathome]

Praxius,

Your fangs are showing.

Just a bit too angry to see this clearly.
I couldn't care less who was in government when a coalition happened, what I care about is our right to vote.

Elect as a coalition, not a lie.

 

[scratch]

Praxius,

Your fangs are showing.

Just a bit too angry to see this clearly.
I couldn't care less who was in government when a coalition happened, what I care about is our right to vote.

Elect as a coalition, not a lie.

In my personal opinion, Prax is correct.

regards
scratch

 

[Colpy]

Praxius said:

Go to another $300 million dollar election again in the current economic times? That is the stupidest option out of all of them, because the people already picked, and we got the exact same damn thing that we've all been complaining about for the last sum odd years......

First of all, what current economic times? Last quarter we had 1.3% growth in the economy, on an annual basis.......unemployment is very low.......this is going to get somewhjat worse, as our export economy will suffer as the US economy tanks.....but we are in good shape. Caution, prudence, and an alignment of stimulus policy with the new US administration are the correct strategies......not throwing cash out of the train in the vain hope it will speed things up. $30 billion???? Insane. Better spend $300 million. Think of all the pollsters and talking heads that would employ!

Secondly, the people soundly rejected Dion and the Liberals.....they even more soundly rejected Jack Layton and the NDP, and no one outside of Quebec had any say about the Bloc........to say "the people have chosen" is at best......disingenuous.

Thirdly......yes, we all complain about the CPC gov't. I do, and I'm a party member, same as we all complain about Liberal gov't. But more of us voted for the CPC than for the Liberals........or the NDP.

So, let's take it to the people.

The inclusion of the Separatists in government is simply too controversial a step to be allowed to occur without the specific approval of the electorate. That simple.

 

[Momathome]

In my personal opinion, Prax is correct.

regards
scratch

and that I appreciate without the fangs

I know it is legal to do what they are doing, what I am asking for is a vote on doing this.

Even Quebec got a referendum, why can't we.


If Dion becomes PM after a vote, then I will respect that but until then this will be a hard one to choke down.

MP's who switch parties after they are voted without the electives choice is just as wrong as this.


If Dion wants in that bad, let it go to you and me as a vote.

 

[Praxius]

They already have let them get away with "bloody murder". No more Federal services in any laguage but French in Quebec, increased cash flow to the already proportionally over-paid province, and Duceppe with veto power over the gov't.

The French Language thing in Federal services can easily be shot down by anybody in Quebec based on their own rights and descrimination.... but I'll let Quebecois figure that one out.

Increase cash flow to the already over paid province? Sounds a lot like Alberta if you ask me.... I see no difference. Hypocritical if you ask me.

The Veto power makes perfect sense with being in the hands of the Bloc, because they are not biased to any of the other provinces but their own and when it comes to decisions in regards to other provinces, the other parties who may have some sway to that province, can be ruled unbiasly by the Bloc if it makes no sense or seems unfair to others. If they don't care, then they can let it pass like they have done countless times in the past with other parties needing their support.

And the Bloc can not do anything in regards to seperating without all the votes from the other parties, which they won't do..... and if that breaks up the Coalition, then we go back to an election..... until then, this saves taxpayers another election and we are still using the government we did vote for (Just in a different way that may actually work)

Like to bet on Bombardier getting yet another billion bucks????

While Duceppe crows about how good this is for the Nation??? (he doesn't mean Canada)

I don't really care what companies get money.... if it helps save thousands of workers from losing their jobs and keeps food on their plates, then do it. I'm decently well off for the time being, help those who need it.

Thousands of jobs are being lost in the Auto Industry? Then do something so those people have jobs. People losing their jobs in the lumber? Do something about it so they still have something that brings in money, besides working part time at Wal-Mart.

Lobster Fisherman are having to deal with $3 a pound prices? Do something about it.

The actual drain on the system from all of these people out of jobs will be far worse then the cost of doing something about it now before it gets worse, and the longer Harper and the Conservatives do nothing about it.... the worse it gets.

I would agree.....except for the inclusion of the Bloc......dishonourable and dangerous....

It's not dishonourable because if it was, then your fancy Conservatives are equally guilty of trying to pull the same stunt a few years back.... and if they were thinking of it or trying to do it..... then what makes you think they won't do it again?

Does that mean other parties are not allowed to do what the hypocritical Cons do?

Dangerous is allowing Harper to continue on his mad conquest of systematically cutting money from those who need it (The people) giving them no support, and killing off the other political options in our democracy until there is just his greedy ass party.

That is not Democracy.

Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong wrong

And you saw Duceppe talking about how wonderful it all was......not for Quebec, but for sovereignty...........

And we were not in econmoic "crisis", and it was not about that, it was about having political parties pulled off the public teat.

And a huge number of people are outraged at the BQ's inclusion.....

So let's go back to the polls.

Let the people decide.

Can you say Harper majority?????

Nope, because I ain't going through another damn election again already.... this is insanity. And many others also believe there is no need for another election.... Harper broke his election promises of trying to work with the other parties this time around. He said he would and he instead shoved their plans into their faces and basically said there is no negotiation..... that is not working with the other parties, that's being a tyrant.... and he has every damn right to be removed from power as he should be.

Maybe all those out west are all scared of the Bloc's inclusion, but come to think about it, most of the West is Conservative in the first place, so I wonder where you get your information?

And here I am, practically living off the shoulder of Quebec with many other maritimers, who would probably "Suffer" the most if Quebec seperated...... but do I sound scared or angry about their inclusion? How about the rest of the Maritimers who have had Parliamentary Democracy the longest in North America?

The greater majority says no.... those who are Conservative are of course pissy about losing their power, but who's fault is that now?

Harper.

It's funny..... the people who are the most upset about the Bloc's inclusion are those who are furthest away from ground zero if they ever seperate...... you guys need to brush up on your education on this.

 

[scratch]

Praxius,

In my opinion very clear, logical and an excellent take on the current political landscape.

I applaud you.

regards,
scratch

 

[Colpy]

Praxius said

Increase cash flow to the already over paid province? Sounds a lot like Alberta if you ask me.... I see no difference. Hypocritical if you ask me.

Take a deep breath and relax.......please.

You are losing it.

Alberta contributes much, much more to Canada than any other province....

over more than four decades (1961 to 2002), the net federal fiscal contributions of Albertans have averaged about $2,500 per person per year (or $10,000 per year for a family of four), compared with $758 for each Ontario resident and $428 for each B.C. resident – the other two provinces with positive net federal fiscal contributions during this period.

Alberta Pays Its Fair Share and More... | Institute for Sustainable Energy, Environment and Economy

 

[Praxius]

Praxius,

Your fangs are showing.

Not really fangs, I just don't prance around words.

Just a bit too angry to see this clearly.

That does seem to be a side effect for some who read my posts, but if you can't handle my honest opinion and what seems true to me, that's not my problem or my fault.

I couldn't care less who was in government when a coalition happened, what I care about is our right to vote.

Elect as a coalition, not a lie.

That's the funny thing.... we already voted and this is what we are all getting from that vote... it's perfectly democratic, it's perfectly legal and if we just simply goto another election to get the exact same thing as before, then our votes we just gave were a complete waste of time and tax payer's money.

This is what we voted for, even if it's not what you wanted.

 

[Colpy]

Praxius said

And here I am, practically living off the shoulder of Quebec with many other maritimers, who would probably "Suffer" the most if Quebec seperated...... but do I sound scared or angry about their inclusion? How about the rest of the Maritimers who have had Parliamentary Democracy the longest in North America?........................................................

It's funny..... the people who are the most upset about the Bloc's inclusion are those who are furthest away from ground zero if they ever seperate...... you guys need to brush up on your education on this. /QUOTE]

Ah....I live in New Brunswick, I have lived here all my life.

 

[scratch]

Not really fangs, I just don't prance around words.



That does seem to be a side effect for some who read my posts, but if you can't handle my honest opinion and what seems true to me, that's not my problem or my fault.



That's the funny thing.... we already voted and this is what we are all getting from that vote... it's perfectly democratic, it's perfectly legal and if we just simply goto another election to get the exact same thing as before, then our votes we just gave were a complete waste of time and tax payer's money.

This is what we voted for, even if it's not what you wanted.

In my opinion.

I most heartily agree.

regards
scratch

 

[Momathome]

Praxius,

You can give me your opinion without attacking me, it is called common courtesy.
The vote cards said NDP or Liberal, or Bloc or Green not a coalition. The vote was not for a coalition, it was for an individual party.

Do you really believe just because you are in the Maritimes that you are the only one who cares about them?
I'm from N.S., we only moved because there was no work. I was there when the fisheries was taken away, I was there when the racial problems shut down the schools, I was there most of my life. I love the Maritimes as much as you do.

I'm going to quote my mother,
"I voted for the NDP and not the Liberals/Bloc/Green"

My mother wanted Peter Stoffer and not the rest.


This is why I say vote again.

 

[Praxius]

First of all, what current economic times?

Um.... the current ones we are now living in? :-?

Last quarter we had 1.3% growth in the economy, on an annual basis

Which if you look at the details of those numbers were a great majority of part time / minimum wage jobs and the rest were made up from jobs created by the election..... the election is now over, those jobs are now gone, and all is left are the part time / minimum wage jobs.

Take a look at the employment now.... see where it is compared to that old number of 1.3%..... you think the recent amount of people losing their jobs and plants shutting down doesn't make a difference to that number?

.......unemployment is very low

No it's not and it's certainly not going to improve if nothing is done and our government just sits by and does nothing.

.......this is going to get somewhjat worse, as our export economy will suffer as the US economy tanks.....but we are in good shape.

We are in good shape compared to some other countries, but that is not the best way to look at it, as overall, we are not in all that great of shape and the numbers are going to quickly show that once they are updated again.

And even if we are in such good shape, it's not going to hurt to try and do something to make it better while we still can.

Caution, prudence, and an alignment of stimulus policy with the new US administration are the correct strategies......not throwing cash out of the train in the vain hope it will speed things up. $30 billion???? Insane. Better spend $300 million. Think of all the pollsters and talking heads that would employ!

Once again, temporary jobs to help bring up that 1.3% again.... that's a great solution if you expect to keep employing people by having continual elections every couple of months..... but what is actually getting done? Nothing.

Secondly, the people soundly rejected Dion and the Liberals

True in a manner of speaking.

.....they even more soundly rejected Jack Layton and the NDP,

They, much like the Cons, have increased their seats while the Liberals lost.... that is why Dion won't get to make all of the decisions and why Layton is planned to be deputy PM to make sure things are balanced and Dion doesn't try and pull his Carbon Tax plan back from the Dead. And at the same time, the Liberals can keep control over NDP plans you may not like.

and no one outside of Quebec had any say about the Bloc........to say "the people have chosen" is at best......disingenuous.

The Bloc and Quebec are a part of Canada and therefore the people have chosen... they are not 2nd class citizens of this nation and their voices are as just as important as those out west or here in the maritimes or in the territories. Until the Bloc and Quebec actually do seperate or begin to take action to those ends, your argument is not relevent as a factor to be concerned about.

Thirdly......yes, we all complain about the CPC gov't. I do, and I'm a party member, same as we all complain about Liberal gov't. But more of us voted for the CPC than for the Liberals........or the NDP.

And based on our democracy, if they all wish to work together as a coalition and have justified reasons in doing so (Which they do) then they are allowed to combine their numbers to form the majority in which they would collectively represent (Which they do) and therefore the vote is more accurate, then allowing just one party that the majority did not vote for take power and do as they please without consequence.

So, let's take it to the people.

We already did and this is what we got.

The inclusion of the Separatists in government is simply too controversial a step to be allowed to occur without the specific approval of the electorate. That simple.

Well I voted, I had my say, I didn't vote for the Conservatives to be in power, and this coalition, based on our democratic principles, has my blessing, and I don't feel there is any justification to send us to another election and waste the previous one if it can be prevented.

 

[Praxius]

Ah....I live in New Brunswick, I have lived here all my life.

Then may I ask you this:

What is it that you fear so much about Quebec actually seperating or having the power to seperate?

How is that going to destroy Canada?

Why are they not allowed to have the opportunity to seperate and become their own nation?

Yes they already have a few chances and they voted no.... but if it really was a dead issue, we wouldn't be talking about it still, therefore I don't see why they can not have the opportunity to do so.

They're not wanting to destroy Canada, they just may or may not want to be a part of it anymore..... and if our country falls apart after they leave, well that says a lot about our country now doesn't it?

 

[Spade]

In multi-party parliamentary democracies, coalitions are the norm.

Click here.

 

[scratch]

That is very true Spade, my best examples would be Italy and Israel.

Just an observation.
rgs
scratch

 

[Northboy]

Harper says he has a mandate? How many people voted not to have the Conservatives in power? He had a mandate to Work with parliament to govern the affairs of the People.
What does he do? He tries to destroy his political opposition financially by curtailing a practise that even his party benefitted from in its development.

He's thinking corporate, he thinks government is a business. Too many of our politicians think this. Its a public trust, all of the public...

But the three amigos have put it on the line and maybe the country with it.

The comments here are about 50 /50 and in my opinion everyone involved is 1/2 right, so their points are valid, but who is speaking for the People, the nation?

Not any of these.