Dion's national program brings hope

[Lester]

Canadians blind to Liberal 'green shift,' poll shows


Juliet O'Neill, Canwest News Service

Published: Monday, July 07, 2008
OTTAWA - The federal Liberals have a big sales job ahead of them on their proposed national carbon tax.

MORE....

I guess were not the only ones who think it's a stupid idea...

 

[lone wolf]

Hey Wolf, I have no problem seeing your pension go up, when you are past age of work ability your pension should balance according to the standard of living of the day in the city the person lives in. But..……. abusing the environment is not a myth it’s a reality knocking at our environmental door…….
What do we do about it? As many off us know the environment has become an election issue and the party with the most solid platform on the issue will be given a chance to govern. As you know the environment and the Economy is today’s big BUZZZZZZ words...

From page 3 (and hasn't changed)

I'm one of them. I have to survive on a disability pension that's gone up 6% since 1995 when it was knocked down by 20%. I don't pay income tax - but I have to pay the increased cost for groceries, gas, hydro - you name it.

What pensions SHOULD do and what they actually DO do are two different things. Buzzwords eh? Two more of them are Freedom fighter (or terrorist, depending on what side of the line you're taking) and survival. I vowed a long time ago that if I was ever pushed to the point where suicide became a viable option to starving or otherwise surrendering my dignity, then I was taking as many of the bas*ards as possible with me. Is that really the sort of hope you and your Liberals want to take credit for?

The environment is a scareword they're using to control the stupid. Global warming is a natural cycle. Man may have hastened the process very slightly - but it won't reverse until it's time for another ice age. People are such gullible creatures.

 

[Ron in Regina]

Since we're now back on the subject of Dion's "Green Shift" (at least it's Dion's
until the rightful owner of that copywrite protected name peals it away from
the Liberal Party of Canada), and we're now discussing how this plan will affect
individual people in their day to day lives and finances, I want to take a large
step back. The term "revenue neutral" is tossed out often, and I'm assuming it
means "revenue neutral" to the Federal government if the Liberals come into power.
For all of the tax collection, tax cuts, child benefit pay outs, and so on and
so forth...an estimate of a percentage of this 15.4 BILLION collected to be
used to administer this monstrosity to keep it "revenue neutral" to the Federal
government never seems to be mentioned. Lets assume 25% for the sake of
some grade school level math (I am not an Economist by any means).
15.40 billion collected in this tax (6 billion plus from Alberta & Saskatchewan)
- 3.85 billion in administration of this tax plan (assuming 25% collected)
- 9.00 billion in tax cuts
- 2.90 billion in a child tax benefit
= -0.35 billion to improve the environment, new investment in green technologies, ect...
So....where's the "green" part of this "Green Shift" plan suppose to come from?
Factoring in administration (again assuming 25% & yes I know what happens
when one ass/u/me's), the 3 billion that might have been left for the green part
of this tax grab becomes a NEGATIVE 1/3 billion dollars. How's my math???

 

[Tonington]

The term "revenue neutral" is tossed out often, and I'm assuming it
means "revenue neutral" to the Federal government if the Liberals come into power.
For all of the tax collection, tax cuts, child benefit pay outs, and so on and
so forth...an estimate of a percentage of this 15.4 BILLION collected to be
used to administer this monstrosity to keep it "revenue neutral" to the Federal
government never seems to be mentioned. Lets assume 25% for the sake of
some grade school level math (I am not an Economist by any means).

Why do you assume that they have to spend more money to administer the same amount of money?

 

[Ron in Regina]

I have a question for "Socrates the Greek." What SUV has 500 horse power? I've
heard of a Range Rover like you are describing but I've never seen one and doubt I ever
will, as the only North American distributor will be (once it's available) in Florida. How
many of these are ripping around your neighbourhood? I'm in Western Canada, and I drive
a car with a 2.0L motor, and I car pool everyday with someone as the public transit system
out here doesn't work well in a city of only 200,000 people.

 

[Ron in Regina]

Tonington, let's use the Federal Gun Registry as an example, and that was nowhere near as
complicated as this "Green Shift." How much cash was claimed to be needed to administer
that abortion? How much cash was really funneled into funding it before it was abandoned?
Do you honestly think this thing, which I honestly do not believe has anything to do with the
environment beyond using it as an excuse to tax Canadians while buying votes from Eastern
Canada, is going to be run any cheaper than the Gun Registry boondoggle???
In a business plan, if your overhead exceeds 10%-12%, you're in big trouble. In government,
assume double and expect to be asked for more. Administering this Green Plan isn't something
that Dion will do from his kitchen table in the evenings in his spare time. This will create a whole
new branch of government to juggle this monster. That's why I assume they'll have to spend more
money to administer the same amount of money.

 

[Walter]

 

[Tonington]

Tonington, let's use the Federal Gun Registry as an example, and that was nowhere near as
complicated as this "Green Shift."

How is this in any way like the gun registry? They already have your tax records every year.

It's not really complicated to collect taxes.

 

[lone wolf]

Every entry a data clerk makes costs something. One more click could well be a fortune.

 

[Tonington]

Every entry a data clerk makes costs something. One more click could well be a fortune.

The government doesn't file your tax return for you do they? They enter the data on the return, and that's mostly electronic these days. The gun registry was a brand new system of cataloging gun owners. We already have Revenue Canada.

 

[Tonington]

The premise that a Liberal government would need to spend 25% of $15 billion on administering a program to keep it revenue neutral is ridiculous. All they have to do is increase any of the plethora of attached spending promises to make it revenue neutral.

Have any of you even read or scanned the .pdf they have now?

 

[lone wolf]

The government doesn't file your tax return for you do they? They enter the data on the return, and that's mostly electronic these days. The gun registry was a brand new system of cataloging gun owners. We already have Revenue Canada.

Do you think they don't verify what gets entered? One more line number to enter is one more entry. I know we have Revenue Canada. One of their operations are big employer here in Sudbury.

 

[Tonington]

Do you think they don't verify what gets entered?

Have you ever been audited? I haven't...

Be serious for one second. $3.85 billion for one more line on your return? How much do you think it costs to lower a tax, and change the formula?

Never heard of E-file? It was new back in the 90's...

 

[lone wolf]

Have you ever been audited? I haven't...

Be serious for one second. $3.85 billion for one more line on your return? How much do you think it costs to lower a tax, and change the formula?

They didn't put up that great big building and hire all those people for just my return. The point is, this tax is NOT revenue neutral. Somebody will make up for the shortfalls ... and that will be low income Canadians who are exempt from income taxes.

Admittedly, one more line may only make the differences of one less statement filed before quitting time and a new destination for funds. Those new funds have to be administrated don't they? That means a new department - a new money-eater.

EDIT: Was I audited? Just once - two years into my own business. Amazing how a person can keep completely honest books and account for every expense, yet when the taxman leaves, you feel the need for a hot bath....

 

[Tonington]

Admittedly, one more line may only make the differences of one less statement filed before quitting time and a new destination for funds. Those new funds have to be administrated don't they? That means a new department - a new money-eater.

Do they need to create new departments with every federal budget, is that really your assertion?

The administration of funds happens through the Finance Department, and through budget implementation bills.

 

[lone wolf]

Do they need to create new departments with every federal budget, is that really your assertion?

The administration of funds happens through the Finance Department, and through budget implementation bills.

With every federal budget? No. With every new destination for funds? If it's not contracted out - Yes. Efficiency is not a hallmark of government.

Where did all the licence fees for gun registry go? In Ontario, where did all the tire recycling taxes go ... or the fishing licence fees? I trust this new cash grab as much as I believe in any other milking machinery.

 

[Risus]

With every federal budget? No. With every new destination for funds? If it's not contracted out - Yes. Efficiency is not a hallmark of government.

Where did all the licence fees for gun registry go? In Ontario, where did all the tire recycling taxes go ... or the fishing licence fees? I trust this new cash grab as much as I believe in any other milking machinery.

Well, as far as the fishing licence fees go, they were going back into the ministry of natural resources until the ndp got in, and they started transferring all the fees into the general coffers.

 

[lone wolf]

Well, as far as the fishing licence fees go, they were going back into the ministry of natural resources until the ndp got in, and they started transferring all the fees into the general coffers.

Okay... the NDP.... Good scapegoat. Fair jab. They did make a lot of promises they tried to make good on when Paul Martin cut transfer payments.

Not much to worry about though. Dion's got to get in - and he sure won't make it on his own virtues. His only hopes are a serious Harper F/U - and Layton doesn't say somehing intelligent.

 

[Tonington]

With every federal budget? No. With every new destination for funds? If it's not contracted out - Yes.

It is contracted out. Funds go to the relevant departments. Otherwise every new spending implementation by the government would require new departments. That's quite simply not the case.

Really, this is what it takes to administer this fund. The Finance Minister allocates funds to certain departments based on the revenue and expected revenue. That's no different than what happens every year in the budget. They don't need a Carbon Tax Department to do that. Comparing this to the Gun Registry, which was an en entirely new program, is beyond ridiculous.

Where did all the licence fees for gun registry go?

Maybe you can explain this a little better for me. What is the similarity between shifting taxes, which are done every year by the government, and the Gun Registry?

 

[Risus]

Okay... the NDP.... Good scapegoat. Fair jab. They did make a lot of promises they tried to make good on when Paul Martin cut transfer payments.

Not much to worry about though. Dion's got to get in - and he sure won't make it on his own virtues. His only hopes are a serious Harper F/U - and Layton doesn't say somehing intelligent.

Well first, it wasn't a jab, it was a fact.
Second, Layton and intelligent don't go together in the same sentence.
Third, you are correct, dion can't get in on his own virtues, he has none...