Dion's national program brings hope

[lone wolf]

It is contracted out. Funds go to the relevant departments. Otherwise every new spending implementation by the government would require new departments. That's quite simply not the case.

Really, this is what it takes to administer this fund. The Finance Minister allocates funds to certain departments based on the revenue and expected revenue. That's no different than what happens every year in the budget. They don't need a Carbon Tax Department to do that. Comparing this to the Gun Registry, which was an en entirely new program, is beyond ridiculous.

Maybe you can explain this a little better for me. What is the similarity between shifting taxes, which are done every year by the government, and the Gun Registry?

Hell, if I knew how the government did business, I'd either be extremely wealthy or completely nuts.... I don't trust them. I have no reason to trust them. I have been burned enough to know I would rather trust the Mafia or Hells Angels because at least you know what they're all about.

Free Trade and GST were supposed to be a boon to business in Canada - if you believed the propaganda. I took a quarter mil buy-out on my military pension to buy a trucking company with a dedicated run based on my trust that they couldn't trade away a hole in the ground. I invested a few more hundred thou into upgrading my little fleet.

Then came GST - where the bottom fell out of the construction industry. By year's end, the Standard Aggregates sign at Brechin and the Canada Cement signage on Front Street was all LaFarge Ltd - and my contract wasn't renewed.

Then came my war with Ontario - and I worked for them when I was tossed by that fire hose. Can you think of any reason I would have faith in anything the government touches? ...especially when the tax is a cash grab that depends on the gullibility of the middle class - and I know I'm in the tax bracket that will pay?

 

[lone wolf]

Well first, it wasn't a jab, it was a fact.
Second, Layton and intelligent don't go together in the same sentence.
Third, you are correct, dion can't get in on his own virtues, he has none...

Sorry ... even with the union rhetoric. I will trust NDP ahead of Lib, Cons or Green. BQ? They don't even field a candidate outside Quebec. That makes them a waste of perfectly good air.

 

[Tonington]

That's all well and good, everyone has opinions. That means precisely zilch for the implications here that to be revenue neutral, about $4 billion of the money will need to be eaten up in administrative costs. Of course there is going to be hurt. At year 4, when the tax is supposed to generate the $15 billion, it will be the equivalent of the current gasoline excise tax on fuel.

You understand this is a pigovian tax right?

I have no problems with you not trusting government, though I do have problems with flawed logic when it comes to arguments for or against anything.

 

[lone wolf]

I don't mind admitting finance makes absolutely no sense to me. This is for survival. When more cash leaves my pocket for gas-inflated groceries and utilities and greed-inflated gas - and I will get no tax rebate to cover the loss, that tells me I am paying for someone's pipedream to stem the tides. Outside of going further behind the eight ball than I already am, I have problems with the flawed logic that paying a tax is somehow going to stop a natural Earth cycle. Call me next eclipse. For a small fee, I'll turn the sun back on....

 

[Ron in Regina]

So....it seems there might be dissention here with respect to my guestimation as to
what percentage of the revenue collected by this "Green Shift" would be funneled into
its administration. Again I based it on the danger zone of the maximum safe percentage
that a small business should direct into administration (and knowing that we're dealing
with government) and I doubled it. I never pretended to be an economist; just a realist...
Just so everyone knows...if this was a Conservative or NDP plan, I would have just as
many issues with it. So...with that out of the way, who can quote what the Liberals claim
as a percentage of revenue collected by this "Green Plan" will go towards administration?
Who can quote, as a percentage of the revenue collected, that the Liberal Party will direct
towards improving the environment on programs like wind generation, nuclear power, or clean
coal technology and carbon sequestration? I can't find these answers myself so far, and if
someone can point them out, it would be greatly appreciated.
I know that Revenue Canada (or whatever they're calling it now) and a Federal Finance
Department exist, but I also think it would be foolish to think that the "Green Plan" would be
administered in their spare time (after hours at their kitchen tables?) without greatly expanding
their staff and facilities, if not creating a whole new branch of government to soak up this newly
pilfered revenue. A wealth redistribution program of this size and complexity will cost large to
administer.
I live in Saskatchewan, and if I choose to enjoy the benefit of electricity, the one and only
affordable choice is SaskPower (=coal fired power generation plants) and if I choose to heat
my home this winter, the only affordable choice is SaskEnergy (=Natural Gas, unless I wish
to switch to electrical generated heat which puts me back with SaskPower). If these two very
large monopolies get taxed hard, how will these Crown Corporations make up the shortfall???
(Can anyone guess what the ONE Crown owned phone company out here is called?) The
Province of Saskatchewan is already leading the Nation in its inflation rate, but it also has already
committed 1.6 Billion dollars to Carbon Capture and Sequestration technology as Alberta has
committed 2.0 Billion dollars also. For those that think this technology is still untried and
unproven, you need to take a trip out to Weyburn, Sk. I understand that Ontario's matching
contribution is to fold up the automotive and manufacturing industries to reduce pollution but
that's not going to do much for the economy. We don't have smog days like Toronto and we
don't dump the sewage of 1.2 million people per day untreated directly into the ocean like Victoria.
I have a six year old (79% efficient) furnace in a very well insulated home, and I haven't even
seen an incandescent light bulb (except the one inside my oven) in about three years. My doors
are weather-stripped, and I'm saving (as I have been for the last year and it'll take another year or
so) to replace all the windows in my home. I drive a tiny Pontiac with a 2.0L engine and I car pool
with my Son five days/week. It's been two years since anything but Mother Nature has watered my
small lawn, which I hand weed as I do not use pesticides, herbicides, or fertilizer on it. In the last
five years, I have replaced four of the seven appliances in my home with energy efficient ones.
Without the Green Plan to pull even more cash out of my pocket's, the current economy is already
forcing me to do everything I can to economize without Stephane Dion's attempt to kneecap the
Western economy.
We get it out here....really, we do. Between AB & SK there is currently exactly one Liberal MP.
After the next Federal election, there will be none. We know it and the Federal Liberal Party knows
it. They don't have to kiss up to the West, as our population (# of votes) is small compared to Ontario
and Quebec, and we're not interested in voting Liberal (Federally) anyway. If the Liberals have to write-off the West anyway, the "Green Shift" might ensure enough votes might be purchased in non-Western Canada. We get it, but we don't have to like it, or accept it if it's shoved down our throats. This doesn't have to be an East vs. West thing, but that's how it's designed in order to split the country in such a way that the vote rich East resents the West complaining that they don't wanting to be bent over for round two of the National Energy Plan. Been there. Done that. Thanks but no thanks. We'll pass.

 

[Tonington]

Again I based it on the danger zone of the maximum safe percentage that a small business should direct into administration (and knowing that we're dealing
with government) and I doubled it.

A better comparison would be to look at the costs of implementing and running the GST. It was less than $1 billion. In 1992-3 it cost <$0.04 for every $1.00 collected.

 

[scratch]

A better comparison would be to look at the costs of implementing and running the GST. It was less than $1 billion. In 1992-3 it cost <$0.04 for every $1.00 collected.
[/size][/font]

Just keeping dropping it.

 

[Ron in Regina]

4%??? 4% of 15.6 Billion would be 616 Million dollars...

What does the Liberal Party claim this will cost to administer??? Anyone know this one?

Well, lets hope this never comes into existence so neither of us gets to say, "I told you so" in a decade or so. This thing doesn't even exist yet and it's already caused much division. I can't see this being a good thing for a united Canada.

 

[scratch]

4%??? 4% of 15.6 Billion would be 616 Million dollars...

What does the Liberal Party claim this will cost to administer??? Anyone know this one?

Well, lets hope this never comes into existence so neither of us gets to say, "I told you so" in a decade or so. This thing doesn't even exist yet and it's already caused much division. I can't see this being a good thing for a united Canada.

Sir,
How will this be a bad thing "for a united Canada?

 

[Ron in Regina]

How would the "Green Plan" be a bad thing for a United Canada? Well...this would
be the thing that would split Canada. The West has had NEP once already, and it will
not accept that type of financial kneecapping again. I can see that, if the Liberals get
in next and inflict the "Green Plan" upon us, it just will not be accepted out here. How
that'll play out is anyone's guess, but it will not be pretty. Alberta & Saskatchewan just
will not play that game again. At heart, I'm not a separatist, but I'd be taken along with
the flow if that's the way the tide moves. Civil disobedience would be an understatement,
and separation might be the outcome. For those that think it can't happen, you should
read some of the papers out here, or listen to the call in shows to get an idea as to the
pulse of sentiment about this proposed wealth transfer. It will not be accepted at all, let
alone with open arms or even grudgingly. Been there. Thanks but no thanks.
Unlike Quebec, who couldn't support themselves if push came to shove, we can and
wish to continue to be able to support ourselves (& much of the rest of Canada if we are
not outright robbed by this wealth transfer). That's pretty much it. If you think I'm out of
touch with reality, you're entitled to your opinion as I am to mine, but do some homework
to see where things stand out here on this Liberal plan. It might be an eye opener...

 

[Lester]

No Ron, your absolutely right. Were generous, but not stupid. To impose this type of draconian tax on us would be a slap in the face. I too will go with the flow-

 

[Tonington]

4%??? 4% of 15.6 Billion would be 616 Million dollars...

Very astute, which is less than 25% you said seemed credible for the carbon tax.

Nothing is free. No one claimed it wouldn't cost money.

 

[lone wolf]

Very astute, which is less than 25% you said seemed credible for the carbon tax.

Nothing is free. No one claimed it wouldn't cost money.

But what are we buying? Who has to pay the price? A lot of people seem to think the all-powerful government can stop global warming. It can't even keep track of the truth. How does it intend to stop a natural Earth cycle ... and what are the ramifications if it ever does? How does slowing emissions in Canada counter ten times the emissions of China and India as their economies move into this century and boom to catch up and surpass us? Sorta makes you think how stupid it was to stop the space program huh?

 

[Tonington]

How does it intend to stop a natural Earth cycle ... and what are the ramifications if it ever does?

They aren't trying to stop a natural Earth cycle. Their intentions are to curb carbon pollution, and to change infrastructure.

The ramifications are: clean air and water. $hitty deal eh?

 

[lone wolf]

They aren't trying to stop a natural Earth cycle. Their intentions are to curb carbon pollution, and to change infrastructure.

The ramifications are: clean air and water. $hitty deal eh?

Oh ... I see. The money is to put a dome over China and India huh?

Their intentions are to use the environment to suck more money from the bottom and float it to the top. Unless everyone on the planet cuts emissions, and the whole bloody warming cycle just stops cold turkey (you know ... ice ages and stuff) that's all it is is a tax on the stupid paid for by they who can least afford it.

It's got to go back to the drawingboard Ton. This one's just not thought out.

 

[Zzarchov]

I like the "this is a draconian tax" bit..

How much more Canadian can you get?

If you wanna talk about Draconian, how about Ontario in the Equalization scheme.

 

[Ron in Regina]

I'm not saying that I agree with 4%, but I'm acknowledging it. My question still stands
it seems. "What does the Liberal Party claim this will cost to administer???" Anyone???
I've read through their PDF and unless I missed it, the Liberal Party is strangely silent on
this point. I'll acknowledge your guess if you'll do the same for me. With any luck we'll
never have to find out.
The GST, for the sake of discussion, was a flat %...this Green wealth transfer is a bit
different in that someone (I'm assuming it won't be the Finance Department or Revenue
Canada) will have to wander around calculating the "carbon footprint" of the 700 targeted
companies (which I think may be open to interpretation) in order to stick it to them. This
just isn't as clear cut as a flat tax, so I believe 4% is very low balled. Hopefully time won't
have to settle this issue. Has anyone on this Blog taken the time to calculate their own
"Carbon Footprint?" using one of several sites easily found on the internet?

 

[Ron in Regina]

The ramifications of the "Green Shift" have nothing to do with the environment beyond
using it as an excuse for a wealth transfer. Clean air and water will come with conservation
and new (and improved) technologies, not taxation. Taking much of a companies (or an
individuals profit (=wealth) and returning a smaller portion of it improves the environment how?
Alberta and Saskatchewan have committed BILLIONS to carbon capture and sequestration
in an effort to do our part so far. What have Ontario or Nova Scotia or the other Provinces
done so far? Yeah, lets take the 12% of the population that have put money on the line to
develop and improve technology to improve the environment, and punish them with the burdon
of supporting 40% of the wealth transfer while they're keeping Canada's economy from falling
into the toilet like the U.S.'s has already done. Yeah, that makes all kinds of sense.
If anyone wants this Green Plan to actually fly, how about this...All the revenue collected
in B.C. on this plan STAY's in B.C. to improve their provincial carbon footprint, and the same
with Manitoba and Quebec and New Brunswick and so on and so forth!!! That might actually
sell and keep Canada intact. Make it into a race to see who can do the most in the shortest
amount of time. Who can creatively improve the environment the most without outright robbing
the wealth of the other provinces. The sharing would be knowledge of the new technologies
that this Green Plan would actually be funding instead of tax cuts and child care and every
other social vote-buying program the Liberals could come up with that have nothing to do with
the environment.
If the Liberals would try and sell this plan that I'm proposing, Canada might actually stay
intact and the political map would be a sea of Red leaving Canada in the Black. I would even
vote Liberal if they had a real and workable plan that wasn't designed to outright punish Western
Canada for not supporting the Liberal Party.

 

[scratch]

The ramifications of the "Green Shift" have nothing to do with the environment beyond
using it as an excuse for a wealth transfer. Clean air and water will come with conservation
and new (and improved) technologies, not taxation. Taking much of a companies (or an
individuals profit (=wealth) and returning a smaller portion of it improves the environment how?
Alberta and Saskatchewan have committed BILLIONS to carbon capture and sequestration
in an effort to do our part so far. What have Ontario or Nova Scotia or the other Provinces
done so far? Yeah, lets take the 12% of the population that have put money on the line to
develop and improve technology to improve the environment, and punish them with the burdon
of supporting 40% of the wealth transfer while they're keeping Canada's economy from falling
into the toilet like the U.S.'s has already done. Yeah, that makes all kinds of sense.
If anyone wants this Green Plan to actually fly, how about this...All the revenue collected
in B.C. on this plan STAY's in B.C. to improve their provincial carbon footprint, and the same
with Manitoba and Quebec and New Brunswick and so on and so forth!!! That might actually
sell and keep Canada intact. Make it into a race to see who can do the most in the shortest
amount of time. Who can creatively improve the environment the most without outright robbing
the wealth of the other provinces. The sharing would be knowledge of the new technologies
that this Green Plan would actually be funding instead of tax cuts and child care and every
other social vote-buying program the Liberals could come up with that have nothing to do with
the environment.
If the Liberals would try and sell this plan that I'm proposing, Canada might actually stay
intact and the political map would be a sea of Red leaving Canada in the Black. I would even
vote Liberal if they had a real and workable plan that wasn't designed to outright punish Western
Canada for not supporting the Liberal Party.

....alas old hates never die...

 

[Lineman]

It's only carbon turned into currency. It'll work a well as taxing the hell out of cigarettes did. No effect.