Did Jesus Struggle Like you Do?

[AndyF]

Well, the proof as you say has to be the indicative: How come than they are not Christians?

Simple. They are misled.

Stand up to a podium and have a few million people say your a terrific guy that can do no wrong and must be God's messenger, and as the charismatic Kareshes/Jone's of the world will attest, it's very unresistable to let it go to your head.

Mohammed was drawn by his own ego to establish himself as the leader of his own religion, even though he knew Jesus was the Son of God. You will note the Koran just falls short of saying this. The oversight was deliberate and has a purpose in that it would have put a clincher on Mohammed's career, therefore the oversight was to "make room" for Mohammed's ambitions. If it did admit it, everyone would be asking him why he didn't become a Christian cleric or evangelist. The Koran reads like a document that wishes to be politically correct, not making any waves with Jesus , but at the same time not making full admition by giving Jesus his full recognition has God..

Courtesy: http://devoted.to/truth

[FONT=ARIAL,HELVETICA,SANS-SERIF]In Oud Emrom 5-45, Jesus is referred to as, "the greatest above all in this world and the world to come." [/FONT]

[FONT=ARIAL,HELVETICA,SANS-SERIF]S-5-46: "And, in their footsteps, we sent Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming the law that had come before him. We sent him the gospel. Therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the law that had come before him. A guidance and an admonition to those who fear God." [/FONT]​

[FONT=ARIAL,HELVETICA,SANS-SERIF]Jesus came to confirm the law. The prophesies were to be confirmed by Jesus (Matthew 5:17, Luke 24:44). The Koran is saying that the prophesy of Jesus was foretold, and that his coming was a confirmation of the law which was written prior to his existence. This is the first proof of divinity. [/FONT]

So we have it here in the Koran as a logical summation, and some would say even pleads to the reader to come to no other conclusion.

Who can be greater than the greatest IN THE WORLD TO COME? Ans: God

AndyF

 

[look3467]

Simple. They are misled.

Stand up to a podium and have a few million people say your a terrific guy that can do no wrong and must be God's messenger, and as the charismatic Kareshes/Jone's of the world will attest, it's very unresistable to let it go to your head. >>>AndyF

If a person had a personal gain yes, I would agree with you.
But, Jesus had no personal gain but in fact gave himself to be a loss for all humanity.
If you can understand the magnitude of that attitude you will find Jesus to be your God.

Mohammed was drawn by his own ego to establish himself as the leader of his own religion, even though he knew Jesus was the Son of God. You will note the Koran just falls short of saying this. The oversight was deliberate and has a purpose in that it would have put a clincher on Mohammed's career, therefore the oversight was to "make room" for Mohammed's ambitions. If it did admit it, everyone would be asking him why he didn't become a Christian cleric or evangelist. The Koran reads like a document that wishes to be politically correct, not making any waves with Jesus , but at the same time not making full admition by giving Jesus his full recognition has God..>>>AndyF

I will not be in judgment of why the Koran exists.
I can only refer back to Abraham where Abraham had two sons.
Isaac representing the Jewish side or the “free” side
Ishmael the other son represents the bond women’s side or the “bondage” side.
God honors both sides as He Himself blesses Hagar with many peoples.

Jesus’ prayer was that all should become one.

Courtesy: http://devoted.to/truth

In Oud Emrom 5-45, Jesus is referred to as, "the greatest above all in this world and the world to come."
S-5-46: "And, in their footsteps, we sent Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming the law that had come before him. We sent him the gospel. Therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the law that had come before him. A guidance and an admonition to those who fear God."
Jesus came to confirm the law. The prophesies were to be confirmed by Jesus (Matthew 5:17, Luke 24:44). The Koran is saying that the prophesy of Jesus was foretold, and that his coming was a confirmation of the law which was written prior to his existence. This is the first proof of divinity.

Who can be greater than the greatest IN THE WORLD TO COME? Ans: God



So we have it here in the Koran as a logical summation, and some would say even pleads to the reader to come to no other conclusion. >>>AndyF

I can understand what is written in blue as acknowledging Jesus to be a great prophet but coming short of being God, or the Son of God.

Our concern as believers, supposing to be believers in Jesus, would be to follow His lead in the two great commandments.

These two commandments liberate us from all dogmatic, unrealistic attempts of mankind to herd people into their perspective congregational groups.

Even the Catholic Church could not contain its members to hold to their dogmas and teaching.

If it could, it would have become a night mare in the hands of a few. But the salvation of the church was in its dividing.

For then, was the house judged and cleansed, and by that time, new and different beliefs sprung up to challenge and to hold the church responsible.

All Churches haveto change to fit the new challenges.

What will the church do now? Continue on as before, or adjust to fit the needs of the people.
Religious evolution is a like a child growing up towards maturity to adulthood, to the full stature of Christ.

That’s how I see it.

Peace>>>AJ:love9:

 

[gopher]

Previously, I mentioned having an Iranian (Shiia) friend who acknowledges Jesus as Messiah as per Koranic teaching. When asked why then did God (allegedly) inspire still another prophetic book in the form of the Koran when, in theory, Jesus as the Word had already filled the needed instructional and inspirational role that he was said to be in the Old as well as New Testament.

My friend said that it is taught that Mohammed is the "comforter" mentioned in that New Testament. Indeed, Pickthall also wrote that many Muslims believe he fulfilled that role and that this is why Christians should honor the Koran as being of divine origin. Note that Pickthall (so far as I know) did not say Mohammed was that 'comforter' but that he was said by Muslims to be that person.

The problem that I have with that is that in John 14 it is clear that the comforter is a spiritual, not physical being. Mohammed was a mortal man. Therefore, Mohammed cannot possibly be that comforter.

Blueletterbible.org gives us a full definition of 'comforter' or parakletos:

http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3875&Version=kjv

This is proof that the being in question is of spiritual, not human agency. On that basis, Mohammed cannot possibly be the comforter.

 

[sanctus]

oon.cfm?Strongs=G3875&Version=kjv

This is proof that the being in question is of spiritual, not human agency. On that basis, Mohammed cannot possibly be the comforter.

I find it amusing you persist in your silliness. I was speaking also to a friend, A Muslim cleric, who openly laughed when I shared with him your views.

He further shared in very emphatic terms that Islam does not regard Jesus as anything but a prophet sent by God, but not the Messiah as we understand that term to be.

Of course, you would known more than a Muslim clergyman I suppose

 

[doozer123]

yes I think so
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[look3467]

Previously, I mentioned having an Iranian (Shiia) friend who acknowledges Jesus as Messiah as per Koranic teaching. When asked why then did God (allegedly) inspire still another prophetic book in the form of the Koran when, in theory, Jesus as the Word had already filled the needed instructional and inspirational role that he was said to be in the Old as well as New Testament.

My friend said that it is taught that Mohammed is the "comforter" mentioned in that New Testament. Indeed, Pickthall also wrote that many Muslims believe he fulfilled that role and that this is why Christians should honor the Koran as being of divine origin. Note that Pickthall (so far as I know) did not say Mohammed was that 'comforter' but that he was said by Muslims to be that person.

The problem that I have with that is that in John 14 it is clear that the comforter is a spiritual, not physical being. Mohammed was a mortal man. Therefore, Mohammed cannot possibly be that comforter.

Blueletterbible.org gives us a full definition of 'comforter' or parakletos:

http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3875&Version=kjv

This is proof that the being in question is of spiritual, not human agency. On that basis, Mohammed cannot possibly be the comforter.

You are correct that the comforter is a spiritual being.
Prior to Jesus the spirit of God rested on a few selected individuals to act out the messages of God, using the flawed charter of mankind to do so.

Case in point: King David. His character was flawed in the evil deed that he did, but yet God moved him to become the father of the throne by which Jesus was to come.

Psa 132:11 The LORD hath sworn in truth unto David; he will not turn from it; Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne.

But after Jesus resurrection the righteousness of God rests upon all mankind in the form of the Holy Spirit (Comforter) as mankind accepts the gift of righteousness. Amo 5:7 Ye who turn judgment to wormwood, and leave off righteousness in the earth,

A better understanding would be for the whole world to believe in Jesus, but if not, then the next best thing is to believe in a prophet declaring the love of God.

Peace>>>AJ:love9:

 

[gopher]

Of course, you would known more than a Muslim clergyman I suppose

Sounds like you made up that story. My friend just happens to be a scholar whose late father was such a renowned clergyman that al-Sistani attended his funeral.

 

[gopher]

You are correct that the comforter is a spiritual being.

Thank you for the validation. I have posted on several web forums and challenged Islamic scholars to reconcile the notion of 'comforter' as spiritual agency and Mohammed having mortality. No one has managed to make that reconciliation. But anyone who has an answer is welcomed to do so.

 

[AndyF]

If a person had a personal gain yes, I would agree with you.
But, Jesus had no personal gain

I was refering to Mohamed. He was one of the first successful "Kareshes" so to speak.

Regardless of the wishful thinking of many, the Koran does state Jesus was the "greatest". The Greatest is God, period.

I rest my case.

AndyF

 

[snfu73]

I was refering to Mohamed. He was one of the first successful "Kareshes" so to speak.

Regardless of the wishful thinking of many, the Koran does state Jesus was the "greatest". The Greatest is God, period.

I rest my case.

AndyF

You do???

The greatest is god....why?

 

[look3467]

I was refering to Mohamed. He was one of the first successful "Kareshes" so to speak.

Regardless of the wishful thinking of many, the Koran does state Jesus was the "greatest". The Greatest is God, period.

I rest my case.

AndyF

Andy, I was referring to anybody but Jesus, so yes, that would include Mohamed.

Peace>>>AJ:love9:

 

[look3467]

:love9:

 

[gopher]

``the Koran does state Jesus was the "greatest".``

I believe that this is a reference to 'greatest' person rather than greatest being.

 

[look3467]

``the Koran does state Jesus was the "greatest".``

I believe that this is a reference to 'greatest' person rather than greatest being.

Apart from or equal to Mohamed?

Peace>>>AJ:love9:

 

[gopher]

So far as I recall, above Mohammed.

 

[Dexter Sinister]

There is nothing "holy" about that book [the Koran]. Further, who cares what it has to say about Jesus? It is a false teaching, a demonic plague upon the earth.

A remarkably illiberal and intolerant remark from you sanctus, or so I thought, and it seemed so unlike you that I refrained from commenting on it when you posted it 8 days ago because I assumed you must know something I don't (sure, like that would surprise you... ). I've been re-reading the Koran lately, for the first time in almost 40 years, and it's clear that my memory of it had been badly contaminated by what I presume must be my beliefs in the virtues of liberalism and tolerance. Apart from being desperately boring, repetitive, and tedious (though maybe I just have a bad translation; it may be sublime in its original Arabic for all I know), on almost every page it tells Muslims to despise non-Muslims, or warns of the awful divine retribution awaiting unbelievers, or exhorts the faithful to go out and kill and die in the name of Allah. It's awful beyond belief, absolutely horrible. If Muslims really believe this is the inerrant revealed word of God, and it appears that they do, it's obvious where people like the Taliban and suicide bombers come from. It's in the book.

So I've changed my mind. You did not make an illiberal and intolerant remark. Quite the contrary: you were remarkably restrained. And I'm rethinking my liberal and tolerant views of Islam too. There's no substitute for actually confronting the text.

And just as an amusing little aside, some other things I've been reading lately suggest that the 70 virgins Muslim martyrs will get in paradise might be a mistranslation. The Arabic word is hur, usually translated as houris, which in its original meaning has something to do with women having big soft brown eyes like a gazelle, but it seems the Arabic texts describing paradise were at least partly plagiarized from Christian texts in which the Aramaic word hur appears. In Aramaic it means white raisins, a great delicacy in the ancient Middle East.

Imagine the Muslim martyr arriving in paradise expecting 70 doe-eyed virgins and being given a handful of raisins instead...

 

[RomSpaceKnight]

Jesus was a Jewish carpenter living under a goverment of foreign invaders 2000 years ago. I'm betting life wasn't too easy back then.

 

[gc]

And I'm rethinking my liberal and tolerant views of Islam too.

The thing is, most Muslims I know don't believe in all that stuff (the intolerance and killing stuff)...just like most Christians I know don't believe in all the stuff in deuteronomy (like stoning homosexuals).

Just because their book happens to have a whole lot of other crap in it that they don't even believe in, does not mean I am not tolerant of Christians and Muslims in general (so long as they are not blowing people up or murdering abortion doctors ;-)).

 

[Dexter Sinister]

The thing is, most Muslims I know don't believe in all that stuff (the intolerance and killing stuff)...just like most Christians I know don't believe in all the stuff in deuteronomy (like stoning homosexuals)..

That seems the key point to me. Christians and Jews and Muslims and Hindus and whatever aren't going to get along peacefully unless all factions pretty much abandon most of the scriptural canon and revert to the few humanist values expressed in their supposedly sacred texts.

 

[sanctus]

A remarkably illiberal and intolerant remark from you sanctus, or so I thought, and it seemed so unlike you that I refrained from commenting on it when you posted it 8 days ago because I assumed you must know something I don't (sure, like that would surprise you... ). I've been re-reading the Koran lately, for the first time in almost 40 years, and it's clear that my memory of it had been badly contaminated by what I presume must be my beliefs in the virtues of liberalism and tolerance. Apart from being desperately boring, repetitive, and tedious (though maybe I just have a bad translation; it may be sublime in its original Arabic for all I know), on almost every page it tells Muslims to despise non-Muslims, or warns of the awful divine retribution awaiting unbelievers, or exhorts the faithful to go out and kill and die in the name of Allah. It's awful beyond belief, absolutely horrible. If Muslims really believe this is the inerrant revealed word of God, and it appears that they do, it's obvious where people like the Taliban and suicide bombers come from. It's in the book. ...

That is why I have such a dim view of liberal movements to have us believe that the central teachings of the Koran are the same as those found in the Gospels of Christ. Or the ridiculous suggestion that the Muslim faith regards Jesus as the Messiah. The Koran terrifies me, not so much in what it says, but for what it suggests for those who believe in it.