Did Jesus Struggle Like you Do?
- Thread starter sanctus
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Well no, I don't see that. They knew about a lot of other gods than the one you're talking about--Zeus, Thor, Odin, Baal, Apollo, etc.--but there's no more evidence for your version than there is for those. Despite that, they had believers in their day just as convinced in their beliefs as you are in yours.
I presume you don't believe in any of those other gods, that it would be fair to say you're atheist with respect to them? If you truly understand why you don't believe in any of them, then you'll also understand why I don't believe in the one you're promoting. The reasons are the same.
But we've wandered pretty far afield from sanctus' original question about Jesus' struggles. Maybe we should stop hijacking his thread...
Yeah, I did see your note re Jones, and actually I've seen Jones* too, but I think you miss my point. You appeared to claim that the original sources prove the Bible and the Koran to be correct, my point was that they don't and can't. The original sources can prove only that your claims about the Bible and the Koran are correct. Those sources are not accessible to me, I'm illiterate in the languages used in them, and you obviously know far more about these matters than I do so I bow to your superior knowledge on that, but you can't claim the books themselves are correct, you can claim only that your understanding of what they say is the correct one (which I think is probably what you meant anyway; at a minimum I'm sure we'd agree that the Bible and the Koran cannot both be correct, so you wouldn't have meant that they are). I don't have the knowledge to dispute that claim, so I won't, but I will dispute most claims that the books themselves are correct.
*I used to have the book, but somehow it seems to have been lost in a household move or a fit of incautious tidying or something. Most annoying, and it's out of print now, I haven't been able to find another copy. You wouldn't happen to have two, would you...? ;-)
Jesus, as is the nature of derivatives, would have made it seem like there were more loaves and fish than there really were. Just like Enron!
Well, the proof as you say has to be the indicative: How come than they are not Christians?
To Believe Jesus is the Messiah is to believe He is the one of whom all the prophecies spoke about and the one Lamb of God.
You have judged God by the bad behavior of mankind
Well, I see where the whole bible is not taken into account, but only a few choice verses to justify a certain view.
To see the whole picture of Gods work is to understand who He is, what He has done, and how we relate to Him.
That picture paints God as an all loving Father.
I do grant you the fact that people are very gullible, and can easily be led astray when it comes to spirituality.
That is why I have researched and questioned what I believe so as to know to my satisfaction that I am on the right track.
I now see where I innocently erred in the past, but since have made corrections for the best.
Can’t you tell by my responses that I don’t put any bodies views down as being wrong?
Peace my friend>>>AJ:love9:
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At first, when I first got to looking into all those gods, my thoughts could only be condemnation to all of them.
I mean, I had some serious attitude problems to overcome.
And as I said, prior to Abraham, there was no revelation of who God was, let alone if there was one.
Every god ever thought up by mankind is taken into account for lack of knowledge of the true God in mercy and forgiveness.
The reason being is that they didn’t have a clue as to who God really was, so their ignorance is forgiven.
But when the true God does reveal Himself, He than expects us to notice Him and pay due respect to Him.
Therefore you see the first Commandment of the ten as : Exo 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
God was establishing Himself on earth via the Jewish nation as the primary carriers of His Ten Commandments.
They were chosen to display those Commandments to the rest of the world as a witness to Him.
Adding further to that, the Ten Commandments were commandments of condemnation of which “NO” human being could ever hope to find salvation through them.
It created a hopeless condition for mankind to where only God Himself could deliver us from them.
One has to see the whole picture to understand what I am saying because Jesus, is God in human form delivering humanity from the original creation of death, to that of eternal life.Now as for the last part of your response the answer of course is no, I don’t believe in any other god except the one God revealed in the scriptures.
But again, I don’t condemn them because it is not in my place to do so.
I can educate people in the one true God by word and action as a testament to His loving kindness and reality, but apart from that, people have choices.
Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day choose whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
This is a directive to the children of Israel to make a distinction between the God that was revealed and or gods of their forefathers.
Understandable! We both have choices.
As for hijacking the thread, not in the least bit, for Sanctus willing to further the sharing of the gospel of Jesus Christ would have no reservations to letting the thread go where the Holy Spirit directs.
The Holy Spirit knows and sees into the hearts of mankind, while we can only see the results of what’s in the heart.
Peace>>>AJ :love9:
``it's out of print now, I haven't been able to find another copy.``
Jones's book was actually translated by Rodwell --- Jones was the editor, so I misspoke above. The book is still readily available:
http://www.orionbooks.co.uk/MP-26203/The-Koran.htm
http://www.shop-com.co.uk/op/~The_Koran_Edited_by_Alan_Jones-prod-18527851-25776123?sourceid=309
http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/product?item_no=6091&event=CF
But why not order one for free?
http://www.freequran.org/
http://www.restoration-experts.com/ORC/ORH/FQ/fq.html
or here,
http://www.cair-net.org/
Jones's book was actually translated by Rodwell --- Jones was the editor, so I misspoke above. The book is still readily available:
http://www.orionbooks.co.uk/MP-26203/The-Koran.htm
http://www.shop-com.co.uk/op/~The_Koran_Edited_by_Alan_Jones-prod-18527851-25776123?sourceid=309
http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/product?item_no=6091&event=CF
But why not order one for free?
http://www.freequran.org/
http://www.restoration-experts.com/ORC/ORH/FQ/fq.html
or here,
http://www.cair-net.org/
at a minimum I'm sure we'd agree that the Bible and the Koran cannot both be correct
One thing is for darn sure -- I am not willing to have anyone killed because of differing interpretations of these books. The loss of even one life is far too much in that regard.
Let every one have their own views which they can share with others. But the key is to share it, not to impose it.
One thing is for darn sure -- I am not willing to have anyone killed because of differing interpretations of these books. The loss of even one life is far too much in that regard.
Let every one have their own views which they can share with others. But the key is to share it, not to impose it.
Can’t you tell by my responses that I don’t put any bodies views down as being wrong?
Excellent. That is precisely the attitude everyone should have. It would make for a more peaceful world if we all accepted that idea.
Peace ...
Excellent. That is precisely the attitude everyone should have. It would make for a more peaceful world if we all accepted that idea.
Peace ...
At a snails pace, knowledge is breaking through the hard shells as experience reasons things out.
Pace>>>AJ:love9:
Well, so did I, apparently. I went to those sites you posted--and thanks for those--and saw the book's publication details, and ordered one. It's far too recent to be the one I'm missing. I did once have a translation of the Koran with some intelligent and critical commentary in it, and just assumed it must be the same one because it's the only one I've ever seen. Besides, my memory is that it was a Penguin book--that's where I looked for and couldn't find it--and the Jones/Rodwell volume is not. I found a translation online as well, but I don't think it's a very good one so I won't bother posting the link. The Koran couldn't possibly be as obviously plain silly as that version is; it reads like it was deliberately set up to mock Islam.
Thomas Paine's Age of Reason showed the Bible's inconsistencies and posed great challenges to Christian scholars who could never answer them. There probably is a similar writing about the Koran somewhere but I've never managed to find one. Jones does mention some Koranic inconsistencies but he should have put those comments in a book so that a reader can readily access the pertinent notes and citations. I'm just not that interested in the Koran or I would search for such a writing more thoroughly.
Having a general view of God's plan for mankind as a whole, I would be challenged to answer some of your questions that general Christianity could not.
Keeping an eye on the main theme of God's creation, one would find that the bible is consistent in it's proclamation of divine Love towards its creatures.
So, if you have any tough questions, lets see them.
Understand that all of my answers have biblical backings, since I feel there is nothing new under the Sun, that has not been covered in the bible.
Peace>>>AJ:love9:
AJ,
I have said before that I am a literary scholar and that my knowledge of the Bible surpasses that of most preachers. That is NOT an idle boast - it is fact.
My questions are re the possibility of inconsistencies in the Koran as Professor Jones reports. If you know of any such reports, let me see them.
I have said before that I am a literary scholar and that my knowledge of the Bible surpasses that of most preachers. That is NOT an idle boast - it is fact.
My questions are re the possibility of inconsistencies in the Koran as Professor Jones reports. If you know of any such reports, let me see them.
I looked in Goggle under bible inconsistencies and found several sites.
I copied one site down to get its contents to study.
I want to say that after reading some of them, I can understand the writer’s urgency to declare them as inconsistencies.
So that only leaves one other explanation that is totally missed and can not be seen.
And that explanation has to do with having our understanding opened up to see the spiritual significance of the stories.
I can tell you right now, that unless there ray of hope to believe in God, there will be no spiritual understanding coming forth from God.
It is much like the German enigma machine, I think that’s what they called it, that without the code, the message cannot be discovered.
I will take the first sentence of this persons work to demonstrate what I am talking about.
Just to show you how easy it is not to see the spiritual significance to that verse.
First of all, creation of the universe is one thing, and then revelation of knowledge is another.
Apart from the physical creation there is also a spiritual creation.
Remembering that we are made after the spirit of God meaning if you will from the first seed Adam whoever that man and women were: Caveman?
The first thing that is identified in Genesis is in the first verse is the physical creation.
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
This process did not take seven days, more like millions of earth years to make, but for the limited human understanding, a story of 7 days is used.
That being out of the way, God then brings in the spiritual understanding in light of those same 7 day story.
If you take notice that the first part of Genesis is the “Introduction”, the reasons for the fall, judgment and finally redemption.
Let there be light after the sun already existed is the light coming to the world as Jesus.
Up until His arrival, the world was considered to be in darkness knowledge wise.
The light of God enters a world of darkness and divides the darkness from the light and calls it day.
There are references to where the day is preferred to be in rather than the night because the day is being in the knowledge of God.
Can you see what I am saying?
So there is absolutely no inconsistencies there if seen with the spiritual eye, otherwise, there is an argument.
I can tell you right now without going any further into this persons work, that there is not a spark of faith towards God by which God may grant this individual revelation.
Now, I am not just whistling Dixie here Gopher, but with due respect for your intellectual abilities, a correct renderings of the spiritual is impossible unless there is a shred of evidence of faith towards God.
I will give you references to that effect: Job 28:20 Whence then cometh wisdom? and where is the place of understanding?
Unless God gives us wisdom, His wisdom, the wisdom of men will never get the picture.
So you see, all of mans wisdom is like King Solomon said: Ecc 1:14 I have seen all the works that are done under the sun; and, behold, all is vanity and vexation of spirit.
How then, the question is asked can any man know wisdom to understand the things of God apart from what mankind has already learned of himself?
The answer is still the same: Psa 111:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom…..
Pro 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge….
Here the word fear means acknowledging God, or respect for God.
There is in my estimation, no competition for arguments of bible inconsistencies because they are looked at by me in the spiritual sense.
Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
There is no end to the depths of Gods wisdom and knowledge, why His judgments are so, are way beyond our ability to understand.
But what things He gives us to understand are in itself most precious because He finds us worthy to receive.
Peace>>>AJ:love9:
I copied one site down to get its contents to study.
I want to say that after reading some of them, I can understand the writer’s urgency to declare them as inconsistencies.
So that only leaves one other explanation that is totally missed and can not be seen.
And that explanation has to do with having our understanding opened up to see the spiritual significance of the stories.
I can tell you right now, that unless there ray of hope to believe in God, there will be no spiritual understanding coming forth from God.
It is much like the German enigma machine, I think that’s what they called it, that without the code, the message cannot be discovered.
I will take the first sentence of this persons work to demonstrate what I am talking about.
Just to show you how easy it is not to see the spiritual significance to that verse.
First of all, creation of the universe is one thing, and then revelation of knowledge is another.
Apart from the physical creation there is also a spiritual creation.
Remembering that we are made after the spirit of God meaning if you will from the first seed Adam whoever that man and women were: Caveman?
The first thing that is identified in Genesis is in the first verse is the physical creation.
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
This process did not take seven days, more like millions of earth years to make, but for the limited human understanding, a story of 7 days is used.
That being out of the way, God then brings in the spiritual understanding in light of those same 7 day story.
If you take notice that the first part of Genesis is the “Introduction”, the reasons for the fall, judgment and finally redemption.
Let there be light after the sun already existed is the light coming to the world as Jesus.
Up until His arrival, the world was considered to be in darkness knowledge wise.
The light of God enters a world of darkness and divides the darkness from the light and calls it day.
There are references to where the day is preferred to be in rather than the night because the day is being in the knowledge of God.
Can you see what I am saying?
So there is absolutely no inconsistencies there if seen with the spiritual eye, otherwise, there is an argument.
I can tell you right now without going any further into this persons work, that there is not a spark of faith towards God by which God may grant this individual revelation.
Now, I am not just whistling Dixie here Gopher, but with due respect for your intellectual abilities, a correct renderings of the spiritual is impossible unless there is a shred of evidence of faith towards God.
I will give you references to that effect: Job 28:20 Whence then cometh wisdom? and where is the place of understanding?
Unless God gives us wisdom, His wisdom, the wisdom of men will never get the picture.
So you see, all of mans wisdom is like King Solomon said: Ecc 1:14 I have seen all the works that are done under the sun; and, behold, all is vanity and vexation of spirit.
How then, the question is asked can any man know wisdom to understand the things of God apart from what mankind has already learned of himself?
The answer is still the same: Psa 111:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom…..
Pro 1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge….
Here the word fear means acknowledging God, or respect for God.
There is in my estimation, no competition for arguments of bible inconsistencies because they are looked at by me in the spiritual sense.
Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
There is no end to the depths of Gods wisdom and knowledge, why His judgments are so, are way beyond our ability to understand.
But what things He gives us to understand are in itself most precious because He finds us worthy to receive.
Peace>>>AJ:love9:
I am aware of those arguments. As I said before, I am interested in learning about inconsistencies in the Koran, not the Bible. If you have a book like Age of Reason for that book, then that's what I want to know.