Your not saying I'm a bigoted Islamophobe because I don't agree with their idea of what it means to be the Messiah, are you?
Did Jesus Struggle Like you Do?
- Thread starter sanctus
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Your not saying I'm a bigoted Islamophobe because I don't agree with their idea of what it means to be the Messiah, are you?
Jesus did not struggle.
How can you struggle when you know for a fact that God exists?
All Christians believe in Jesus and God and the Holy Ghost but they only believe and hope it is true.
They constantly read the bible and discuss their beliefs with other Christians.
A lot of Christians are brainwashed into believing and may even have dreams that they talked to Jesus himself.
Believing and knowing is two different beliefs.
“I talked to a man on a deserted street” this is a statement of fact I then tell you that I talked to a man, you would struggle to believe me because you never met the man.
Jesus had a personal relationship with God, he met him, and he talked to him face to face and for Jesus this was not a struggle.
This why Jesus allowed himself to be crucified and this is why he put up with the pain because he knew that he would be with God again.
This is why Jesus did not struggle.
I just cited that so you'll know what I'm responding to, and that was the phrase that most strongly caught my attention. I don't believe my existence has anything to do with any god, it has instead to do with purely natural forces like the rules of physics and the biological imperatives of evolution.
Your argument would make sense if I bought its unspoken premise, that there in fact is a supernatural being that has some interest in us, but I don't. I don't believe there is a god, I know of no evidence or argument that would justify such a belief, and I know of plenty of evidence and arguments that strongly suggest any and all gods are purely inventions of human imagination and have no existence outside the realm of ideas. In other words, it's fiction.
I've don't recall you ever citing any source in support of your arguments but the Bible. Maybe you should try reading other things too.
Are you suggesting that knowing god exists removes the need for struggle? Lots of people would make the same claim, that they know for a fact that god exists, but as far as I can see that doesn't remove grief and trouble from their lives, they seem to get the same dose of it everybody else does.
Repeatedly telling us how brilliant you are doesn't count as argument. I think you're letting your ego run away with you a bit here.
BitWhys said:
No, I'm not. What I am saying is that these haters have fooled everyone into thinking along their ways. They repeat certain lies and somehow the lies become the "truth" because it is repeated so often.
But once we all read what is actually written in the Koran rather than the myths from those haters, we all see the truth. BTW, I appreciate your open mindedness and that of all others here.
The truth does set you free.:smile:
Dexter Sinister said:
Sorry, pal. But it is God's truth. All I do is to present the facts from the actual sources such as the Bible or Koran rather than to use Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson's propaganda. That doesn't make me a 'genius'. All is does is to prove that the Bible, like the Koran, is correct.;-)
As long as whoever they are acknowledge the Islam idea of Messiah and the Christian idea of Messiah are two different things its not a detail I could take issue with.
Exactly -- where in the Koran does it say that 'Messiah' means something different to them? Look all you want and you will NEVER find even a shred of evidence that it has a different meaning to them. Why? Because it doesn't.
I know of no reason to think there's any such thing. It's all human invention.
Sorry pal, but no, you can't prove the Bible or the Koran are correct by citing them in support of themselves. That's self-referential and logically not valid. At best you could in principle logically show that they're internally consistent, but in reality you can't, because they're demonstrably not.
Thank you Gopher, but the glory is not mine to have, but to Him who resides in me, Jesus.
Peace>>>AJ
What makes the bible or the Koran true is how the believer practices it. It comes to life when the believer honors the underlying theme which is love.
The underlying truth in both books is love.
If love is not practiced, throw the books away.
Peace>>>AJ:love9:
How can that possibly make anything true? That logic escapes me. Believing something doesn't make it so.
No, the books are interesting in their own right, so I'll keep my copies. I don't need them though, to live what you'd call a loving life. I think I've been pretty successful at that without the lessons you think they teach. I've no doubt you'd tell me I'm missing something important and you'd try to explain what it is, citing chapter and verse at great length. Then I would tell you why I think you're completely wrong. Then you'd try again, citing chapter and verse at great length again, then I would explain again about logical fallacies like arguments from authority and anecdote...etc. ad infinitum. Our minds are never going to meet on the subject of religion.
What you hold to be true is what you practice.
Here is a verse to justify that statement: Luk 6:45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart bringeth forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaketh
So, regardless of what book one reads, the verse above stands true.
By all means keep them! I meant to say that unless the love is the motive, the books mean nothing.
But yes, the books are instructional manuals.
Of course not, but in them you will find all the psychological effects of mankind.
They are a manual for life.
Your core values come from one or both even though you don’t care to admit it.
Your are not responsible to me, so why should I judge you? But to God you are, and so His manuals speak volumes on human nature’s bad habit’s and ways to live above them.
Well, of course my friend, this is what discussion is all about. But, one need not respond to any of it if it makes no sense.
I enjoy discussing religion, religious beliefs with the hopes of sharing the love of Jesus.
It is my first love.
I hold no ill will, no condemnation to anybody’s beliefs, but I will not fail if given the opportunity to mention my Jesus and the love He has for all of humanity.
When God rains love, it falls on everybody, but everybody does not stand out there to receive it, for they first seek shelter from it and miss out on its baptism. (Drenching)
Peace>>>AJ:love9:
Well, I already shared evidence to that effect, but clearly you are ignoring it as it does not fit into your preconceived notions. Let me try one more time, the Muslims do not regard Jesus as the Messiah. they see Him as a prophet sent from God for the Gentiles/Jews..but not as the Christ.
No, they don't. There are perfectly satisfactory naturalistic explanations for humans' core values that long predate either of those books, rooted in our evolutionary past as social animals. There were eminently successful cultures long before those books showed up, our core values are merely the necessary rules for any well-ordered society: care for your children, treat your neighbours well, don't kill each other, or at least not members of your own tribe, stuff like that. It's pretty elementary, really. Religious justifications for values are just post hoc rationalizations of existing conditions. You really should try reading something other than scripture some day, you'll find it's not the source of all wisdom and values. It merely codifies some of them and overlays a veneer of unnecessary religious authority.
according to Islam, sure. That doesn't mean its not the case.
I have read both the Pickthall and Jones translation both of which are fully annotated (I still have a copy of Jones). Neither one gives even the slightest hint that 'Messiah' means anything different in Arabic as it does in Hebrew or Greek. Jones, in particular, is highly critical of the Koran though Pickthall is highly sympathetic because he was a convert to Islam. If there was any truth to the allegation that so many of you continue to make without even the slightest proof whatsoever, it would have been Jones who would have made it. But he doesn't because there simply is no difference in meaning.
Want me to believe otherwise? Just give me proof that Jones and Pickthall were wrong. Don't know how you plan on doing so but I will await your 'proof'.
I have read both the Pickthall and Jones translation both of which are fully annotated (I still have a copy of Jones). Neither one gives even the slightest hint that 'Messiah' means anything different in Arabic as it does in Hebrew or Greek. Jones, in particular, is highly critical of the Koran though Pickthall is highly sympathetic because he was a convert to Islam. If there was any truth to the allegation that so many of you continue to make without even the slightest proof whatsoever, it would have been Jones who would have made it. But he doesn't because there simply is no difference in meaning.
Want me to believe otherwise? Just give me proof that Jones and Pickthall were wrong. Don't know how you plan on doing so but I will await your 'proof'.
Your argument is fully understandable. but you see, prior to the knowledge of god's character's revelations, starting with Abraham, non one humankind knew anything about who god was.
It is as you say (A truth) that instilled in mankind's makeup (In my own words) was a bent on a conscience level that made us a law unto ourselves.
This is stated in the bible verse:Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
You see, God covered His bases in that He included all of humanity not just the people He chose to deliver the law.
Understanding Gods plan and action, we can see where all that fits perfectly with His mercy and grace.
There would be no mercy and no grace if we had to pay for our own separation (Death) when it was not of our making in the first place.
So, God stepped in and took the penalty away from us. Now, you can believe anything you want and your soul still be covered by the blood of Jesus.
But, of course, knowing that Jesus loves you and wants you to believe that He died for your sins, would be something that only you could generate from within you in appreciation for the sacrifice He made in your behalf.
But then again, you don't have to acknowledge anything about Him.
He still included you anyways! And that's mercy in every sense of the word.
And Dex, I have done quite a bit of research, ventured in unknown territory, and have arrived at a beautiful understanding which surpasses everything I've been brought up to believe.
You realize that 20 years ago, I would have had nothing to do with talking to you, because I would have considered you to be a lost soul and headed straight to hell?
The Lord has opened up my understanding to see things the way He sees them, from the top down, and from within the heart.
Hence, I stress the potential of the soul's heart, for there is where true religion is found.
There is where we can find the real you and not the flesh named Dexter.
I will know you best by who you are inside, then by who you seem to be on the outside.
I can tell allot by what people say, and how they say it, which reveals what it is that is in their hearts.
Peace>>>AJ:love9: