Did Jesus Struggle Like you Do?
- Thread starter sanctus
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thanks. I have my moments. A lot of that and more is basically stolen from Desmond Tutu.
I am going to agree with you on that but with an explanation: the creation of the flesh needed knowledge of both good and evil in order to become like as god, therefore, He knew beforehand what He had to do to remedy the situation and still give us the opportunity to experience being like as gods, but without the penalty of eternal damnation.
That is why we have the freedom to choose. But choosing the opposite of good, will always bring consequences, as depicted in the expulsion of Adam and Eve from the Garden.
There are two distinct operations going on in the world of humanity and Gods.
The first operation was to create a human with god like qualities. Give him a choice by giving him knowledge of good and evil.
The actual creation as explained can only bring separation between God and mankind, which is defined as death. It is a spiritual death because we now have become like as gods. That would make two gods instead of one, and we both know from our leanings that God will not have it so, so death to the new creation was not an option.
The first operation involves a place for holding departed spirits (Hell) and the prospect of eternal separation. (Eternal death)
These two served their purpose until the time for the new creation.
At the appointed time then God in human form (Jesus) must then take away the penalty (death) for knowledge gained and the place holding the departed spirits. (hell)
Jesus then comes and does exactly that: eliminates the holding place (Hell) and eliminates the penalty of eternal separation. Those two no longer exist!
Second operation; is the privilege given to exercise our rights as gods anyway we like.
The problem with that, is that apart from the standard of behavior given to us in letter, we are responsible for our own unrighteousness. We pay for our misdeeds, here while still on earth.
These two operations we error in the mix, for we try to add them together as if they were one.
That’s where Gods graces come in, of which behavior has no implication on eternal salvation, only on personal accounting.
Dex,
Common sense is our best friend, because it evaluates Gods actions and causes us to wonder, question and even blame God.
God has given each one of us a sense of goodness that sometimes defy’s any logic of God’s behavior; and causes us to seek out the right answers.
Your very existence is a God given privilege. You are a separate individual with a soul that is named Dexter, an individual like no other.
Latching on to Him early in the game would be of great benefit to you as He is willing to move on your behalf.
A loving Father is He, and takes care of His own by giving us every opportunity to reach out to Him without condemnation.
Peace>>>AJ:love9:
Trust me, I know just a bit more about these matters than you do.
Sorry my friend but it is I who know the subject better than you do. Just go ahead and read the Koran for yourself and you see that what I have written is correct.
Sorry my friend but it is I who know the subject better than you do. Just go ahead and read the Koran for yourself and you see that what I have written is correct.
Well, what would I know, theology is only my business
I have read the Koran, and even have a copy. Your references are out of context, as I told you before. The Islamic faith does NOT recognize Jesus as the Messiah. they acknowledge Him as a special envoy of God, but not God. They also acknowledge Abraham and Moses, as well as the other OT Prophets.But Jesus, as the Christ sent as the final word of God in the flesh, God Himself..no,that they certainly do not accept. Nor is it taught in the Koran
But again, theology is only how I make a living, so surely I haven't a clue what I'm talking about..
The Koran and the Bible carry the same thought, and that is that there is one God. (Allah)
In between is the message of mankind’s salvation.
I have been given the privilege to be on the bible side, and thus with greater responsibility to love my brother Muslim.
The burden is on me for my brother.
And that I will do as a testimony of the love of Christ.
[al-Baqarah 2:107] Do you not know that Allah's is the kingdom of the heavens and the earth, and that besides Allah you have no guardian or helper?
Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
Just a sample of the two; the Koran (al-Baqarah 2:107) and the bible (Isa 45:5 ) one can see that there are similar in thought, but in different words.
That is why we cannot box God into a box of our imagination by make judgments of condemnation of his literary methods.
If there is a heart, the main thought in those two verses will become apparent.
Otherwise, both are blinded as is the case now.
I keep saying that if love is at the core, and if exercised, there will be no divisions.
As of now, I have no divisions! But that is not to say, that I haven’t been divided, since there are some who would not see what I see.
That is sad in one way, but good in another way. That is because, through divisions are we to learn to love.
Allah is just another name by which God is identified to the Muslims.
[al-Baqarah 2:116] And they say: Allah has taken to himself a son. Glory be to Him; rather, whatever is in the heavens and the earth is His; all are obedient to Him.
This is David's Son raised to be the Son of Allah as promised in 2-Samuel 7:11/14, confirmed by Allah swearing in His Holiness.
(2SAMUEL 7:14) ""I will be his father, and he shall be my son."" If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men: (KJV)
2Pe 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
Dan 7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
I have no argument with the Koran.
Peace>>>AJ:love9:
In between is the message of mankind’s salvation.
I have been given the privilege to be on the bible side, and thus with greater responsibility to love my brother Muslim.
The burden is on me for my brother.
And that I will do as a testimony of the love of Christ.
[al-Baqarah 2:107] Do you not know that Allah's is the kingdom of the heavens and the earth, and that besides Allah you have no guardian or helper?
Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
Just a sample of the two; the Koran (al-Baqarah 2:107) and the bible (Isa 45:5 ) one can see that there are similar in thought, but in different words.
That is why we cannot box God into a box of our imagination by make judgments of condemnation of his literary methods.
If there is a heart, the main thought in those two verses will become apparent.
Otherwise, both are blinded as is the case now.
I keep saying that if love is at the core, and if exercised, there will be no divisions.
As of now, I have no divisions! But that is not to say, that I haven’t been divided, since there are some who would not see what I see.
That is sad in one way, but good in another way. That is because, through divisions are we to learn to love.
Allah is just another name by which God is identified to the Muslims.
[al-Baqarah 2:116] And they say: Allah has taken to himself a son. Glory be to Him; rather, whatever is in the heavens and the earth is His; all are obedient to Him.
This is David's Son raised to be the Son of Allah as promised in 2-Samuel 7:11/14, confirmed by Allah swearing in His Holiness.
(2SAMUEL 7:14) ""I will be his father, and he shall be my son."" If he commit iniquity, I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men: (KJV)
2Pe 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
Dan 7:14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.
I have no argument with the Koran.
Peace>>>AJ:love9:
Another example of your foolishness. The Koran is not the same as the Bible. If you think otherwise, you deceive yourself.
``theology is only my business``
That's fine but literary scholarship is (or, more correctly) used to be mine. I have debated the issue with scholars whose academic credentials far exceed yours and have won my debates easily. If you are so confident of your claim, simply accept my previous offer and that will settle the argument.
That's fine but literary scholarship is (or, more correctly) used to be mine. I have debated the issue with scholars whose academic credentials far exceed yours and have won my debates easily. If you are so confident of your claim, simply accept my previous offer and that will settle the argument.
No argument. I suggested this to you already. You are able to read? You are wrong.
1. Do Muslims believe he was a Messenger of One God? YES
Belief in all of the Prophets and Messengers of God is a fundamental article of faith in Islam. Thus, believing in Prophets Adam, Jesus, Moses, and Muhammad is a requirement for anyone who calls him or herself a Muslim. A person claiming to be a Muslim who, for instance, denies the Messengership of Jesus, is not considered a Muslim.
The Quran says in reference to the status of Jesus as a Messenger:
"The Messiah (Jesus), son of Mary, was no more than a Messenger before whom many Messengers have passed away; and his mother adhered wholly to truthfulness, and they both ate food (as other mortals do). See how We make Our signs clear to them; and see where they are turning away!" (Quran 5:75).
2. Do Muslims believe he was born of a Virgin Mother? YES
Like Christians, Muslims believe Mary, Maria in Spanish, or Maryam as she is called in Arabic, was a chaste, virgin woman, who miraculously gave birth to Jesus.
"Relate in the Book the story of Mary, when she withdrew from her family, to a place in the East. She screened herself from them; then We sent to her Our spirit (angel Gabriel) and he appeared before her as a man in all respects. She said: I seek refuge from you in God Most Gracious (come not near) if you do fear God. He said: Nay, I am only a Messenger from your Lord, to announce to you the gift of a pure son. She said: How shall I have a son, when no man has ever touched me, and I am not unchaste? He said: So it will be, your Lord says: ‘That is easy for Me; and We wish to appoint him as a sign unto men and a Mercy from Us': It was a matter so decreed" (Quran 19:16-21).
3. Do Muslims believe Jesus had a miraculous birth? YES
The Quran says:
"She (Mary) said: ‘O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man has touched me.' He (God) said: ‘So (it will be) for God creates what He wills. When He has decreed something, He says to it only: ‘Be!'- and it is" (3:47).
It should also be noted about his birth that:
"Verily, the likeness of Jesus in God's Sight is the likeness of Adam. He (God) created him from dust, then (He) said to him: ‘Be!'-and he was" (Quran 3:59).
4. Do Muslims believe Jesus spoke in the cradle? YES
"Then she (Mary) pointed to him. They said: ‘How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?' He (Jesus) said: ‘Verily! I am a slave of God, He has given me the Scripture and made me a Prophet; " (19:29-30).
5. Do Muslims believe he performed miracles? YES
Muslims, like Christians believe Jesus performed miracles. But these were performed by the will and permission of God, Who has power and control over all things.
"Then will God say: ‘O Jesus the son of Mary! recount My favor to you and to your mother. Behold! I strengthened you with the Holy Spirit (the angel Gabriel) so that you did speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught you the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel. And behold: you make out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and you breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by My leave, and you heal those born blind, and the lepers by My leave. And behold! you bring forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the children of Israel from (violence to you) when you did show them the Clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: ‘This is nothing but evident magic' (5:110).
6. Do Muslims believe in the Trinity? NO
Muslims believe in the Absolute Oneness of God, Who is a Supreme Being free of human limitations, needs and wants. He has no partners in His Divinity. He is the Creator of everything and is completely separate from His creation.
God says in the Quran regarding the Trinity:
"People of the Book (Jews and Christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, and attribute to God nothing except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was only a Messenger of God, and His command that He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in God and in His Messengers, and do not say: ‘God is a Trinity.' Give up this assertion; it would be better for you. God is indeed just One God. Far be it from His glory that He should have a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and in the earth. God is sufficient for a guardian" (Quran 4:171).
7. Do Muslims believe that Jesus was the son of God? NO
"Say: "God is Unique! God, the Source [of everything]. He has not fathered anyone nor was He fathered, and there is nothing comparable to Him!" (Quran 112:1-4).
The Quran also states:
"Such was Jesus, the son of Mary; it is a statement of truth, about which they vainly dispute. It is not befitting to the majesty of God, that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! When He determines a matter, He only says to it, ‘Be' and it is" (Quran 19:34-35).
8. Do Muslims believe Jesus was killed on the cross then resurrected? NO
"“They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but they thought they did.” (Quran 4:156) “God lifted him up to His presence. God is Almighty, All-Wise” (Quran 4:157) .
Belief in all of the Prophets and Messengers of God is a fundamental article of faith in Islam. Thus, believing in Prophets Adam, Jesus, Moses, and Muhammad is a requirement for anyone who calls him or herself a Muslim. A person claiming to be a Muslim who, for instance, denies the Messengership of Jesus, is not considered a Muslim.
The Quran says in reference to the status of Jesus as a Messenger:
"The Messiah (Jesus), son of Mary, was no more than a Messenger before whom many Messengers have passed away; and his mother adhered wholly to truthfulness, and they both ate food (as other mortals do). See how We make Our signs clear to them; and see where they are turning away!" (Quran 5:75).
2. Do Muslims believe he was born of a Virgin Mother? YES
Like Christians, Muslims believe Mary, Maria in Spanish, or Maryam as she is called in Arabic, was a chaste, virgin woman, who miraculously gave birth to Jesus.
"Relate in the Book the story of Mary, when she withdrew from her family, to a place in the East. She screened herself from them; then We sent to her Our spirit (angel Gabriel) and he appeared before her as a man in all respects. She said: I seek refuge from you in God Most Gracious (come not near) if you do fear God. He said: Nay, I am only a Messenger from your Lord, to announce to you the gift of a pure son. She said: How shall I have a son, when no man has ever touched me, and I am not unchaste? He said: So it will be, your Lord says: ‘That is easy for Me; and We wish to appoint him as a sign unto men and a Mercy from Us': It was a matter so decreed" (Quran 19:16-21).
3. Do Muslims believe Jesus had a miraculous birth? YES
The Quran says:
"She (Mary) said: ‘O my Lord! How shall I have a son when no man has touched me.' He (God) said: ‘So (it will be) for God creates what He wills. When He has decreed something, He says to it only: ‘Be!'- and it is" (3:47).
It should also be noted about his birth that:
"Verily, the likeness of Jesus in God's Sight is the likeness of Adam. He (God) created him from dust, then (He) said to him: ‘Be!'-and he was" (Quran 3:59).
4. Do Muslims believe Jesus spoke in the cradle? YES
"Then she (Mary) pointed to him. They said: ‘How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?' He (Jesus) said: ‘Verily! I am a slave of God, He has given me the Scripture and made me a Prophet; " (19:29-30).
5. Do Muslims believe he performed miracles? YES
Muslims, like Christians believe Jesus performed miracles. But these were performed by the will and permission of God, Who has power and control over all things.
"Then will God say: ‘O Jesus the son of Mary! recount My favor to you and to your mother. Behold! I strengthened you with the Holy Spirit (the angel Gabriel) so that you did speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught you the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel. And behold: you make out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and you breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by My leave, and you heal those born blind, and the lepers by My leave. And behold! you bring forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the children of Israel from (violence to you) when you did show them the Clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: ‘This is nothing but evident magic' (5:110).
6. Do Muslims believe in the Trinity? NO
Muslims believe in the Absolute Oneness of God, Who is a Supreme Being free of human limitations, needs and wants. He has no partners in His Divinity. He is the Creator of everything and is completely separate from His creation.
God says in the Quran regarding the Trinity:
"People of the Book (Jews and Christians)! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, and attribute to God nothing except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was only a Messenger of God, and His command that He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in God and in His Messengers, and do not say: ‘God is a Trinity.' Give up this assertion; it would be better for you. God is indeed just One God. Far be it from His glory that He should have a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and in the earth. God is sufficient for a guardian" (Quran 4:171).
7. Do Muslims believe that Jesus was the son of God? NO
"Say: "God is Unique! God, the Source [of everything]. He has not fathered anyone nor was He fathered, and there is nothing comparable to Him!" (Quran 112:1-4).
The Quran also states:
"Such was Jesus, the son of Mary; it is a statement of truth, about which they vainly dispute. It is not befitting to the majesty of God, that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! When He determines a matter, He only says to it, ‘Be' and it is" (Quran 19:34-35).
8. Do Muslims believe Jesus was killed on the cross then resurrected? NO
"“They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but they thought they did.” (Quran 4:156) “God lifted him up to His presence. God is Almighty, All-Wise” (Quran 4:157) .
You denied that Muslims consider Jesus the Messiah. Yet here are two quotes from your own cite:
"The Messiah (Jesus)"
"The Messiah, Jesus,"
I win. Case closed. See you next year.
"The Messiah (Jesus)"
"The Messiah, Jesus,"
I win. Case closed. See you next year.
BTW, my good friend and neighbor who is a devout Shiia agrees that Jesus is Messiah {his father was a Muslim scholar from Iran}.
Gopher, The purpose for debating theology is not so much to win, but to learn from each others knowledge and or wisdom.
To advance the knowledge of years of learning and experiences. If we added up all our years of life and experiences, we'd have volumes of good hard-worked-out wisdom that we could share one with another.
The main difference between the Muslims, Jews and Christianity, is the divinity of Jesus.
Jesus is, despite his rejection, the sole owner of everybody's soul.
This was already taken into account the day of His crucifixion. You'd think God would leave something out, how about a big fat no!
For the creator of all there is for us to ponder would have left some little detail like a soul lost because of unbelief?
Even an intelligent man like you would have to reason that if there were a God, and He created all that you see, touch, hear and smell, would that not make you think that He was a master genius?
Well, He has made provisions for the Jews, the Muslims, Christians and yes, atheist in His grant plan of salvation.
There is no one belief which has the conner on the market when it comes to Jesus.
He has cover all His bases and has missed no single soul lost to eternity.
That you can be grateful if you please, for I am: He covered you as well.
I will not argue the validation of the Koran for I see passed all the nit-pickings of mankind as you have been witnessing just here on this thread.
But that's OK, too, because someone somewhere will learn something from us. Even Sanctus!
Hey, just think if all of us where on a boat in the middle of the sea; a Jew, a Muslim, a Christian an an atheist,and the boat had hit an iceberg, which one of all of us do you think would be saved?
All would! No, no life jackets, no life boats and in shark infested sea.
Jesus, my friend had already taken care of all their souls. They all drowned at sea, but their souls Jesus saved.
Ain't that just dandy? Man, what a wonderful God we have.
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
The only thing we all have to worry about is how to be good people and be the best we can be. Have no prejudices towards other faiths, and treat everybody as we would like to be treated.
That's it!
Peace>>>AJ:love9:
Hey, I sure won't argue against that! Bless that friends heart! And a good neighbor to boot!
Peace>>>AJ:love9:
that's what I thought.
That's what bigoted Islamophobes have been alleging all these years. But that's because they want to demonize Muslims. The fact remains, however, that they have always acknowledged that Jesus is Messiah. They have never denied it, contrary to what their haters would have you believe. The Koran clearly says Jesus is Messiah as Sanctus has just proven -- there is absolutely nothing in the Koran that denies that truth. Nothing.
That's what bigoted Islamophobes have been alleging all these years. But that's because they want to demonize Muslims. The fact remains, however, that they have always acknowledged that Jesus is Messiah. They have never denied it, contrary to what their haters would have you believe. The Koran clearly says Jesus is Messiah as Sanctus has just proven -- there is absolutely nothing in the Koran that denies that truth. Nothing.
AJ says, "The only thing we all have to worry about is how to be good people and be the best we can be. Have no prejudices towards other faiths, and treat everybody as we would like to be treated."
This may well be the most beautiful post I have ever seen in Canadian Content!
Congratulations on making such a wonderful post.
Don't worry - I won't hold Sanctus to his pledge. He can stay here forever as far as I am concerned.
Peace to all .........:smile:
This may well be the most beautiful post I have ever seen in Canadian Content!
Congratulations on making such a wonderful post.
Don't worry - I won't hold Sanctus to his pledge. He can stay here forever as far as I am concerned.
Peace to all .........:smile: