Demjanjuk and Sobibor

[darkbeaver]

Now THAT I have some sympathy with.

Denial should not be illegal......the cockroaches need to be exposed to the light of fact, not forced into the shadows.................

Your Zionist buddies won't allow that Colpy.
Canadian Parliamentary Coalition to Combat Antisemitism

Mandate of the ​

Canadian Parliamentary Coalition to Combat Antisemitism ​

Mission

The CPCCA is a coalition of concerned parliamentarians aiming to confront and combat the global resurgence of Antisemitism. It recognizes that Antisemitism by its nature is fundamentally opposed to the multicultural identity of Canada and to the Canadian values of Human Rights and Human Dignity. It harnesses the goodwill of parliamentarians in all parties, in both Houses of the Parliament of Canada, in the struggle against this oldest and most enduring of hatreds.

Vision
The CPCCA is an all-party Parliamentary group which will remain independent of both the Government of Canada and NGOs or Advocacy Groups. Committee membership is restricted to current Members of Parliament. It aims to undertake two primary objectives:

1. To conduct an Inquiry into Antisemitism in Canada, with the following as its terms of reference:
[FONT=&quot]o [/FONT]To identify and define the nature of Antisemitism in Canada today.
[FONT=&quot]o [/FONT]To analyze, as far as evidence

 

[darkbeaver]

If a person wants to explore the history of WW2 specifically the mass starvation of German civilians after the ceasefire and the deplorable treatment, which was mass murder of German POWs ones interest will be strictly curtailed up to and including death. Morganthau was a monster.

 

[CDNBear]

If a person wants to explore the history of WW2 specifically the mass starvation of German civilians after the ceasefire and the deplorable treatment, which was mass murder of German POWs ones interest will be strictly curtailed up to and including death. Morganthau was a monster.

:lol:

Ya, the Berlin airlift was a hoax, German POW's not wanting to leave Canadian Camps, and eventually becoming citizens here...ya, your grasp of history is nothing less then breath taking DB.

 

[einmensch]

In a final move to spurn the Americans, British, and French out, on June 24, 1948, all land and water access to West Berlin was cut off by the Soviets. There were to be no more supplies from the West. What was going to happen? Where were the necessary supplies going to come from for the Occupation Forces?

Following up on a casual remark by a German friend, I was surprised to learn how badly the U.S. (and France) treated German PoWs in 1945-48. Though not mass-murder, it was a jarring contrast to the warm image later cultivated by the Marshall Plan and the Berlin Airlift.


.ExternalClass .ecxhmmessage P{padding:0px;}.ExternalClass body.ecxhmmessage{font-size:10pt;font-family:Verdana;}Jews claim 6 million Jews were murdered in 3 years--DUH 1945-1948 is 3 years as well


U.S. (and French) abuse of German PoWs, 1945-1948

During the final collapse of Nazi Germany (1945), between 3.4 and 5 million [SIZE=-1]p-1[/SIZE] German PoWs fell into US hands. Thousands or tens of thousands would die of hunger, exposure, and neglect; many hundreds of thousands would barely survive 3-4 months of such conditions; and millions would still be imprisoned many months after the war was ended.

In the spring of 1945, when the US held 3.4 million German PoWs, Britain held 2,150,000 . Many were shipped as slave laborers to Britain, where 400,000 still remained at the end of 1946 . As a general rule, the ones in Britain were treated decently, in contrast to many in France.

Due to the postwar atmosphere of chaos, famine, disease, cold winter, deliberate abuse by militias, and senseless killing, German civilian casualties during the expulsion were very high. The estimated number varies by source, from 1.1 million to 3 million.

However, according to Buechner's 1986 book, Dachau: The Hour of the Avenger : An Eyewitness Account,[6] 520 German soldiers were executed, including 346 killed on the orders of 1st Lt. Jack Bushyhead,



[SIZE=+1]"Starting in April 1945, the United States Army and the French Army casually annihilated one million [German] men, most of them in American camps . . . Eisenhower's hatred, passed through the lens of a compliant military bureaucracy, produced the horror of death camps unequalled by anything in American history . . . an enormous war crime."[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]--Col. Ernest F. Fisher, PhD Lt.
101 st Airborne Division, Senior Historian, United States Army[/SIZE]

 

[einmensch]

Eisenhower's German POW Death Camps - A US Guard's Story
In Andernach about 50,000 prisoners of all ages were held in an open field surrounded by barbed wire. The women were kept in a separate enclosure I did not see until later. The men I guarded had no shelter and no blankets; many had no coats. They slept in the mud, wet and cold, with inadequate slit trenches for excrement. It was a cold, wet spring and their misery from exposure alone was evident.

Even more shocking was to see the prisoners throwing grass and weeds into a tin can containing a thin soup. They told me they did this to help ease their hunger pains. Quickly, they grew emaciated. Dysentery raged, and soon they were sleeping in their own excrement, too weak and crowded to reach the slit trenches. Many were begging for food, sickening and dying before our eyes. We had ample food and supplies, but did nothing to help them, including no medical assistance.

Outraged, I protested to my officers and was met with hostility or bland indifference. When pressed, they explained they were under strict orders from "higher up." No officer would dare do this to 50,000 men if he felt that it was "out of line," leaving him open to charges. Realizing my protests were useless, I asked a friend working in the kitchen if he could slip me some extra food for the prisoners. He too said they were under strict orders to severely ration the prisoners' food and that these orders came from "higher up." But he said they had more food than they knew what to do with and would sneak me some.

When I threw this food over the barbed wire to the prisoners, I was caught and threatened with imprisonment. I repeated the "offense," and one officer angrily threatened to shoot me. I assumed this was a bluff until I encountered a captain on a hill above the Rhine shooting down at a group of German civilian women with his .45 caliber pistol. When I asked, Why?, he mumbled, "Target practice," and fired until his pistol was empty. I saw the women running for cover, but, at that distance, couldn't tell if any had been hit.
Purple heart material right , CNBEAR, Woolf and the rest of the pack ?

Have you noticed how special I am. I am the only one to accumulate so many red chevrons

 

[lone wolf]

Did you expect food to magically appear to feed all of Europe? I expect conquered belligerents were very low on the list of priorities.

 

[einmensch]

Did you expect food to magically appear to feed all of Europe? I expect conquered belligerents were very low on the list of priorities.

May this below will help--I made it easier to find and read for you.

When Germany surrendered in May 1945, the American Military Governor, General Eisenhower, sent out an "urgent courier" with instructions making it a crime punishable by death to feed German prisoners. It was even a capital offence to gather food together in one place to take to prisoners. The message reads in part: ".Under no circumstances may food supplies be assembled among the local inhabitants in order to deliver them to prisoners of war. Those who violate this command and nevertheless try to circumvent this blockade to allow something to come to the prisoners place themselves


[SIZE=+1]Excerpt from -[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]OTHER LOSSES[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]By James Bacque[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]Stoddart Publishing[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]Toronto, Canada[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]ISBN 0-7737-2269-6[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]June, 1945 US POW camp in Germany[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]"Starting in April 1945, the United States Army and the French Army casually annihilated one million [German] men, most of them in American camps . . . Eisenhower's hatred, passed through the lens of a compliant military bureaucracy, produced the horror of death camps unequalled by anything in American history . . . an enormous war crime."[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]--Col. Ernest F. Fisher, PhD Lt.
101 st Airborne Division, Senior Historian, United States Army[/SIZE]
After the war in May 1945, General Eisenhower issued an order that all captured German soldiers were to be kept in open fields with no shelter and no toilets.

Also, the prisoners were allowed no food or water at all.

 

[lone wolf]

Was Demjanjuk there?

Frankly, I was born in 1956 and had nothing to do with it. Where do you stand in that line ... or are you one of those types who live on second and third generation grudges?

 

[Goober]

May this below will help--I made it easier to find and read for you.

When Germany surrendered in May 1945, the American Military Governor, General Eisenhower, sent out an "urgent courier" with instructions making it a crime punishable by death to feed German prisoners. It was even a capital offence to gather food together in one place to take to prisoners. The message reads in part: ".Under no circumstances may food supplies be assembled among the local inhabitants in order to deliver them to prisoners of war. Those who violate this command and nevertheless try to circumvent this blockade to allow something to come to the prisoners place themselves

[SIZE=+1]Excerpt from -[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]OTHER LOSSES[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]By James Bacque[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]Stoddart Publishing[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]Toronto, Canada[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]ISBN 0-7737-2269-6[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]June, 1945 US POW camp in Germany[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]"Starting in April 1945, the United States Army and the French Army casually annihilated one million [German] men, most of them in American camps . . . Eisenhower's hatred, passed through the lens of a compliant military bureaucracy, produced the horror of death camps unequalled by anything in American history . . . an enormous war crime."[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]--Col. Ernest F. Fisher, PhD Lt. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]101 st Airborne Division, Senior Historian, United States Army[/SIZE]
After the war in May 1945, General Eisenhower issued an order that all captured German soldiers were to be kept in open fields with no shelter and no toilets.

Also, the prisoners were allowed no food or water at all.

For your perusal

From Goober - I am growing quite fond of that name.

Other Losses - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Mr. Bacque is wrong on every major charge and nearly all his minor ones. Eisenhower was not a Hitler, he did not run death camps, German prisoners did not die by the hundreds of thousands, there was a severe food shortage in 1945, there was nothing sinister or secret about the "disarmed enemy forces" designation or about the column "other losses." Mr. Bacque's "missing million" were old men and young boys in the Volkssturm (People's Militia) released without formal discharge and transfers of POWs to other allies control areas. Maj. Ruediger Overmans of the German Office of Military History in Freiburg who wrote the final volume of the official German history of the war estimated that the total death by all causes of German prisoners in American hands could not have been greater than 56,000 approximately 1% of the over 5,000,000 German POWs in Allied hands exclusive of the Soviets. Eisenhower's calculations as to how many people he would be required to feed in occupied Germany in 1945-46 were too low and he had been asking for more food shipments since February 1945. He had badly underestimated the number of German soldiers surrendering to the Western Allies; more than five million, instead of the anticipated three million as German soldiers crossed the Elbe River to escape the Russians. So too with German civilians – about 13 million altogether crossing the Elbe to escape the Russians, and the number of slave laborers and displaced persons liberated was almost 8 million instead of the 5 million expected. In short, Eisenhower faced shortages even before he learned that there were at least 17 million more people to feed in Germany than he had expected not to mention all of the other countries in war ravaged Europe, the Philippines, Okinawa and Japan. All Europe went on rations for the next three years, including Britain, until the food crisis was over.[32]

 

[Goober]

May this below will help--I made it easier to find and read for you.

When Germany surrendered in May 1945, the American Military Governor, General Eisenhower, sent out an "urgent courier" with instructions making it a crime punishable by death to feed German prisoners. It was even a capital offence to gather food together in one place to take to prisoners. The message reads in part: ".Under no circumstances may food supplies be assembled among the local inhabitants in order to deliver them to prisoners of war. Those who violate this command and nevertheless try to circumvent this blockade to allow something to come to the prisoners place themselves


[SIZE=+1]Excerpt from -[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]OTHER LOSSES[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]By James Bacque[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]Stoddart Publishing[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]Toronto, Canada[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]ISBN 0-7737-2269-6[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]June, 1945 US POW camp in Germany[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]"Starting in April 1945, the United States Army and the French Army casually annihilated one million [German] men, most of them in American camps . . . Eisenhower's hatred, passed through the lens of a compliant military bureaucracy, produced the horror of death camps unequalled by anything in American history . . . an enormous war crime."[/SIZE] [SIZE=+1]--Col. Ernest F. Fisher, PhD Lt. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1]101 st Airborne Division, Senior Historian, United States Army[/SIZE]
After the war in May 1945, General Eisenhower issued an order that all captured German soldiers were to be kept in open fields with no shelter and no toilets.

Also, the prisoners were allowed no food or water at all.

More from Goober - Love that name.

Other Losses - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Historians Gunter Bischof and Brian Loring Villa stated that a research report from the panel "soundly refuted the charges of Other Losses, especially Bacque's fanciful handling of statistics."[33] The historians further stated:[33]
“It is not necessary to review here Bacque's extravagant statistical claims which are the heart of his conspiracy theory. The eight scholars who gathered in New Orleans and contributed to Eisenhower and the German POWs: Facts against Falsehood (1992) refuted Bacque's wily misinterpretations of statistics and oral history evidence in detail. Numerous reviews of the book written by the top talent in the military history profession such as John Keegan and Russel Weigley were persuaded by the findings of the book. These findings have since been further solidified by detailed case studies on individual American POW camps in Germany hastily built at the end of the war like Christof Strauss's exhaustive Heidelberg dissertation on the POW and internment in the Heilbronn camp. The mountain of evidence has been building that Bacque's charge of the "missing million" supposedly perishing in the American (and French) POW camps in Germany and France is based on completely faulty interpretation of statistical data. There was never any serious disagreement that the German POWs were treated badly by the U.S. Army and suffered egregiously in these camps in the first weeks after the end of the war. That the chaos of the war's end would also produce potentially mismatches and errors in record keeping should surprise no one either. But there was NO AMERICAN POLICY to starve them to death as Bacque asserts and NO COVER UP either after the war. No question about it, there were individual American camp guards who took revenge on German POWs based on their hatred of the Nazis.

 

[weaselwords]

Iwasn't going to bother putting my 2 schekels in however if Demjanjuk is guilty he'll be found guilty if innocent he'll be innocent. Far and away from Demjanuk the discussion of the Holocaust being real or fake is a nonstarter. The Holocaust happenned whether 6m or fewer people died, according to the deniers bible "Did 6m really die" the figures show at the minimum 150,000 died therefore the Holocaust was real even from a deniers figures

 

[Colpy]

More from Goober - Love that name. When I say Sieg Heil does does that give you a little Chubbie.

Other Losses - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Historians Gunter Bischof and Brian Loring Villa stated that a research report from the panel "soundly refuted the charges of Other Losses, especially Bacque's fanciful handling of statistics."[33] The historians further stated:[33]
“It is not necessary to review here Bacque's extravagant statistical claims which are the heart of his conspiracy theory. The eight scholars who gathered in New Orleans and contributed to Eisenhower and the German POWs: Facts against Falsehood (1992) refuted Bacque's wily misinterpretations of statistics and oral history evidence in detail. Numerous reviews of the book written by the top talent in the military history profession such as John Keegan and Russel Weigley were persuaded by the findings of the book. These findings have since been further solidified by detailed case studies on individual American POW camps in Germany hastily built at the end of the war like Christof Strauss's exhaustive Heidelberg dissertation on the POW and internment in the Heilbronn camp. The mountain of evidence has been building that Bacque's charge of the "missing million" supposedly perishing in the American (and French) POW camps in Germany and France is based on completely faulty interpretation of statistical data. There was never any serious disagreement that the German POWs were treated badly by the U.S. Army and suffered egregiously in these camps in the first weeks after the end of the war. That the chaos of the war's end would also produce potentially mismatches and errors in record keeping should surprise no one either. But there was NO AMERICAN POLICY to starve them to death as Bacque asserts and NO COVER UP either after the war. No question about it, there were individual American camp guards who took revenge on German POWs based on their hatred of the Nazis.

Thank you Goober........

I don't need a historian to tell me that Einsmench, as usual, is way off base. As it happens my late father-in-law served in Europe and immediately after the war was assigned as guard over POWs, as it happens, Dutch SS. We talked of it because I was interested and quizzed him..... He told me of food shortages, of the starvation in the Dutch population, that the prisioners were treated reasonably well, and that they had no fear of them escaping, because they were on one hand fed, and on the other hand kept safe from the Dutch people, who wanted to kill them.

He said the only time they had a real problem was when they moved some of them in open rail cars, the Dutch lined up on bridges over the rails with bricks, stones, whatever they thought would kill the traitors.....the guards were forced to fire over their heads to disperse them.

I think the 1% fatality rate is probably right on for German prisoners.......actually, I also think Dutch SS should have simply been turned over to the mob.

German soldiers are one thing.

Dutch traitors another thing altogether.

 

[darkbeaver]

:lol:

Ya, the Berlin airlift was a hoax, German POW's not wanting to leave Canadian Camps, and eventually becoming citizens here...ya, your grasp of history is nothing less then breath taking DB.

airlift 48
prisoners Canada lucky
you are history:lol:

 

[darkbeaver]

Thank you Goober........

I don't need a historian to tell me that Einsmench, as usual, is way off base. As it happens my late father-in-law served in Europe and immediately after the war was assigned as guard over POWs, as it happens, Dutch SS. We talked of it because I was interested and quizzed him..... He told me of food shortages, of the starvation in the Dutch population, that the prisioners were treated reasonably well, and that they had no fear of them escaping, because they were on one hand fed, and on the other hand kept safe from the Dutch people, who wanted to kill them.

He said the only time they had a real problem was when they moved some of them in open rail cars, the Dutch lined up on bridges over the rails with bricks, stones, whatever they thought would kill the traitors.....the guards were forced to fire over their heads to disperse them.

I think the 1% fatality rate is probably right on for German prisoners.......actually, I also think Dutch SS should have simply been turned over to the mob.

German soldiers are one thing.

Dutch traitors another thing altogether.

Hey Colpy in Canada we will one day determine who's been naughty and who's been nice eh.

 

[einmensch]

1956--I'm old enough to be your young Father -I was born in Austria a few km from what is now the Chec Republic. I lived under Russian Occupation until 1954.

Other Evidence of German POW deaths
Several historians rebutting Bacque have argued that the missing POWs simply went home, that Red Cross food aid was sent to displaced civilians and that German POWs were fed the same rations that the US Army was providing to the civilian population. US and German sources estimate the number of German POWs who died in captivity at between 56,000 and 78,000, or about one percent of all German prisoners, which is roughly the same as the percentage of American POWs who died in German captivity.[82] This is contradicted by a report into missing POWs commissioned in the 1950s by the West German Chancellor Konrad Adenauer, which found that 1.5 million German prisoners known to be alive in allied prison camps never came home, nor were their deaths recorded

 

[einmensch]

Official claims that the German POW death rate was under 1% have been critisized. For comparison the British civilian post war mortality rate was 1.2% while in America, where there were no food shortages, the U.S. civilian mortality rate did not fall below 1% until 1948. Anglo American troops held in German POW camps suffered a 4% mortality rate which was praised by the ICRC and credited to the German military ensuring that POWs continued to receive Red Cross food parcels despite their own food shortages in the final months of the war.

Large quantities of food were being offered to Germany. However, due to allied restrictions on German trade all the offers were rejected and in one case, this resulted in Holland being forced to destroy a large proportion of their vegetable crop and as late as 1948 Swedish fishermen were still destroying their surplus catch or working only two days a week due to a lack of markets.[109] By May 1945, the ICRC had 100,000 tons of food in storage warehouses in Switzerland and in August the Red Cross shipped 30,000 tons of high protein food parcels by rail to feed displaced persons in Germany but was forced to return them to storage where they eventually spoiled. A further 13.5 million Red Cross rations stockpiled in Europe were confiscated by the military and were never distributed. Senator Kenneth S. Wherry later complained about the thousands upon thousands of tons of rations spoiling amid a starving population. Max Huber, head of the International Red Cross, wrote a letter to the U.S. State Department in which he described the difficulties placed by SHAEF in the way of the ICRC efforts to provide aid. Huber received a letter in response, signed by Eisenhower, stating that giving Red Cross food to enemy personnel was forbidden. The refusal to distribute the aid has been explained by some modern historians such as Stephen Ambrose, as due to a need to stockpile food in expectation of a famine.[

 

[darkbeaver]

Iwasn't going to bother putting my 2 schekels in however if Demjanjuk is guilty he'll be found guilty if innocent he'll be innocent. Far and away from Demjanuk the discussion of the Holocaust being real or fake is a nonstarter. The Holocaust happenned whether 6m or fewer people died, according to the deniers bible "Did 6m really die" the figures show at the minimum 150,000 died therefore the Holocaust was real even from a deniers figures

The holocaust is real. I agree. So what exactly is the holocaust? When did it begin and when will it end? Why is it that something so often remembered is so poorly understood?

 

[darkbeaver]

Was Demjanjuk there?

Frankly, I was born in 1956 and had nothing to do with it. Where do you stand in that line ... or are you one of those types who live on second and third generation grudges?

So you accuse him of being like the zionists then.

 

[lone wolf]

So you accuse him of being like the zionists then.

Pretty much.... He's carrying on the hate.

 

[weaselwords]

The misuderstanding stems from 2,000+ years of suspicious nature of a newly formed religion . Particularly using an older religion's tenents, beliefs & holy books as the basis for the new one & the fact that the new religion grew exponentially in believers while the original stayed within its own community thereby causing suspicion & hate, making it easy to blame the original for all the ills of the world