Dagger Ban unconstitutional Supreme Court says

[FiveParadox]

That is quite true; nonetheless, I have never seen a Sikh student in school unsheathe their kirpan in school, and many of the kirpans that are worn are sewn in such a way so that one would need to tear the stitching in order to unsheathe the blade at all; they are very much ceremonial, and are not manufactured to be practical weapons.

 

[the caracal kid]

Indeed, they are not designed to be weapons. However, the groups that oppose the kirpan are using the "its a weapon" argument for their stance. It would be good to allow those opposed to hear the practices and customs of the kirpan from somebody of the Sikh community rather than second hand.

As has been raised in this thread a few times, a scissors is as effective a weapon as a kirpan, yet we are not hearing outcries for the banning of scissors. Also, as i stated, a sheathed kirpan could kill somebody so unsheathing laws may may not be adequate to address this issue.

In the end it is not the kirpan, or the scissors, but the people. Fear and intolorance makes for very small people and an increased risk of something really happening. Given some of the comments in this thread, I can just see what some types of bashing would occur if a racially intolorant person tried to take a kirpan from a Sikh because he/she thought the Sikh should not be allowed to bear it and somebody was injured in the scuffle.

 

[tracy]

Re: RE: Dagger Ban unconstitutional Supreme Court says

I don't see why people think that being equal under the law means we will all be treated exactly the same in every situation. That has never been the case.

Elaborate please, because I don't know what you mean.

I mean there has always been divisions in our society where people are treated differently. New mothers generally receive better maternity leaves than new fathers. The disabled qualify for government programs that the able bodied don't. Old people get money just for being old. Cops can carry guns around and I can't. Married couples get certain benefits that non-married couples don't. None of those things infringe on my rights as a non-parent, able bodied, young, non-married, non-cop. I don't see the difference here. If you don't need to carry a kirpan because you aren't Sikh, what does it matter if someone else does?

The whole it isn't fair argument just rings of family arguments from when I was a kid. It wasn't fair that my parents spent so much money to send my brother to football camp and not me... never mind the fact that I didn't play football or anything and didn't want to go to camp. I was just making an argument for the sake of arguing.

 

[tracy]

By the way, I think Christians have it best when it comes to day to day living, especially for students. They get every one of their holy days off of school whereas other religions don't. I don't think that means that other religions are being oppressed though, it's just a practical fact of life.

 

[FiveParadox]

I think it would be quite cool if the Government of Canada were to "diversify" our public holidays; for example, we could introduce a statutory holiday for Diwali (or whatever holiday would be deemed most appropriate by Sikh associations); if we were to educate each other about our customs and our own personal holidays, perhaps we would all get along a little better?

 

[Gerald24]

I think we should allow anything that other cultures want to do in this Country, I mean we really never had any kind of true Canadian identity anyways! Feel free this is Canada

 

[Haggis McBagpipe]

Yes, it IS Canada, and 'feeling free' is pretty much what we're all about.

 

[Mogz]

RE: Dagger Ban unconstitu

But wait, intolerance shows it ugly head, why can't a white person have the same deal.

Answer, because it is not apart of your religion and as Five as rightly pointed, religious practices are protected under the charter of rights and freedoms.

I don't appreciate being called intolerant. As i've stated in several posts before, one of my closest friends is a Sunni Muslim and I respect both him and his religion (the way it is suppose to be practiced) greatly. I am extremely tolerant of other cultures/religions. However I refuse to sell out my national identity to a religion/belief/ideal. Yes Canada is a multicultural society, however we're taking it to the extreme these days. I've said it once, and i'll say it again. This whole dagger issues is in violation of Canadian Law. Unless the Supreme Court (ha) of Canada has the ability to overwrite our criminal code (which they don't) then I fail to see how they can blatantly contradict it. I simply do not understand how a group of 8 people can tailor national law to apease a religious group. This tip-toeing around religion is begining to drive a wedge in our society. We keep handing everything to the ethnic minority. Not posting the cartoons, allowing weapons in our schools, letting known terrorist sympathizers retain citizenship, all of this is dividing Canadian society. Eventually it'll erupt. Am I personally affected? Not overly...yet. However others I know well are more affected by it than I. I have a good friend from Windsor Ontario who now literally cannot stand muslims. Is he a racist? No. Why does he hate them? Because his daughter is no longer allowed to wear a cross around her neck while at school because it offends the muslims in her class. That right there my friends is what is wrong with Canada. Religious freedom only belongs to the minorities. That's why I take a serious stance on this kirpan issue. My friends daughter cannot wear her religious symbol in Ontario, but a Sikh can carry a weapon to school. Makes me ill.

 

[The Gunslinger]

I'd say something on this issue, but Mogz pretty well summed everything I have to say up.

 

[Colpy]

Re: RE: Dagger Ban unconstitutional Supreme Court says

I think it would be quite cool if the Government of Canada were to "diversify" our public holidays; for example, we could introduce a statutory holiday for Diwali (or whatever holiday would be deemed most appropriate by Sikh associations); if we were to educate each other about our customs and our own personal holidays, perhaps we would all get along a little better?

Five, this is a secular society, I know that.

That being said, our history, our traditions, and yes, even our democracy is firmly rooted in a Christian culture. Not Sikh, not Muslim, not Wiccan, not even Hebrew, but CHRISTIAN.

Other religions should, and are, tolerated in this nation, that is the essence of freedom. But this constant, never-ending appeasement of those who came here to enjoy all the benefits of our traditions (and I welcome them, with conditions), must accept the nature of the culture that has made this place THE place they wanted to immigrate to.

Did you read above? A girl not allowed to wear a crucifix to appease Muslims, while Sikhs are allowed to carry weapons?

Multiculturalism is cultural suicide.

We must develop the pride, the courage, and the determination to stop this suicidal stupidity before it destroys our freedom.

 

[sanch]

Multiculturalism is not the threat. Different holidays representing different cultural traditions would likely produce more understanding of other life styles. Some cities have folkloramas which do just that.

The threat is segmentation and handing out token victories to fundamentalists within groups exacerbates division. From sources I have seen only about 5-10% of the Sikh community are fundamentalist and the issue of the Kirpan and the way it is being represented is defining all Sikhs in the same way. Although I think Sikhs have done better in Canada than many groups they could still be more visibly represented politically.

The idea that opposition to some extremist practices is based on a lack of understanding of these ethnic groups is a fallacy. I married into a Jewish family and I observe all the holidays. All the Jews I know are moderates in that they are somewhat observant but eat pork and are critical of Israel and its handling of Palestinians. Most would also question the right of orthodox groups to homestead in the West Bank based on Biblical rights. And one can also support the orthodox right to exist and still be wary of some of their beliefs that threaten other groups.

There is discord as well in the Sikh community in Canada. It is interesting what the writer a Sikh Canadian objects to. He is right the press should be bettter informed and use the correct terminology. Still there is no dispute that the kirpans were drawn and that in spite of being depicted as ceremonial they are still knives.

The recent horrendously violent incidents at the Guru Nanak Gurdwara in Surrey, British Columbia was an issue of fundamentalist Sikhs versus moderate Sikhs-at least according to the sensationalized media.

As a Canadian Sikh, I define myself as neither a "fundamentalist" nor a "moderate" and find many more issues at stake here. It is not about power and financial control over the often undocumented, multi-million dollar income of the gurdwara. (A gurdwara is the Sikh house for prayer, ceremonial rituals, communal dining, socializing, and gathering. It is supposed to be a peaceful place. No alcohol is allowed, no smoking permitted, and swearing and violence are not tolerated.)

Last month, that peace was disrupted. A group of men attempted to return tables and chairs to the gurdwara's dining hall, but were thrown out by an opposing group in December. A crowd opposing the return of the furniture sat cross-legged on the floor in protest refusing to move. When tables were squeezed into place, shouting and swearing commenced, disobeying the conventional rules of the gurdwara. In moments, as tempers rose and shouting persisted, the sacred kirpans were drawn in vicious offensive attacks against fellow Sikhs.

Kirpans are one of the five sacred symbols of a baptized Sikh, only to be drawn in religious and personal defence. Guru Gobind Singh, the last of the living gurus, justified the drawing of kirpans as such: "When all other means have failed, it is righteous to draw the kirpan." The situation at the Surrey gurdwara had far from reached "all other means" of negotiation, and still the kirpans were drawn. Not only were they not used in defence, they were used against other Sikhs.

http://www.varsity.utoronto.ca/archives/117/feb06/opinions/sikh.html

 

[missile]

What Mogz says..and double that! This is exactly what is wrong with the Charter Of Rights here. Total religious freedom..or none!

 

[Curiosity]

Can anyone tell me .....

I am not familiar with the laws in Canada regarding boarding aircraft - and if they are as strict with domestic security and searches as they might be for international flights.... BUT....

Would a devout Sikh be allowed to wear a concealed Kirpan on an aircraft?

Domestic?
International (would other countries accept it?)
Both?

 

[Doryman]

If I converted to be a Sikh, could I start carrying a kirpan?

If someone practiced Odinism or Asatru, like Jersay, could they bring warhammers to class? I'd turn pretty religious if I could prop Mjolnir against my desk during Canadian Lit. class. :wink:

 

[Curiosity]

Doryman/Sanch

This is what I fear - not religious tradition and belief - but exemption because of religious belief awarded one group over common sense and in this case safety of others.

Knives of any kind should not be part of a school unless they are on display in a learning and educational setting.

What you wrote earlier Sanch about the Jews in the West Bank - that is one example of giving in to extreme religious belief because most people step aside when religion is mentioned as the "reason" for a practice and tradition.

The Israeli settlement has not solved anything, and it continues to be the root cause of many conflicts around the globe - now the Islamic people are following the path the Israeli's have taken.

Religion and government do not mix. It is as simple as that. Freedom of religion or no religion at all should be entirely personal and should never be part of a government ruling.

Holidays - belonging to one particular religious group should be made all inclusive - rather than excluding - and other than those days, stop this separation of groups within religious belief.

Separation destroys a country.

 

[MMMike]

Can anyone tell me .....

I am not familiar with the laws in Canada regarding boarding aircraft - and if they are as strict with domestic security and searches as they might be for international flights.... BUT....

Would a devout Sikh be allowed to wear a concealed Kirpan on an aircraft?

Domestic?
International (would other countries accept it?)
Both?

Of course they would not be able to wear a kirpan, nor should they. But you invite (and agree to) a certain amount of scrutiny when boarding an aircraft. More so than, say, going to public school.

 

[Curiosity]

Thanks MMMike

Is it part of the legal security inspections? And would they confiscate the Kirpan to be retrieved later ?

Although I understand your differentiation between an aircraft and a school, however one still has a "captive" group of people
who may or may not be aware of the presence of the Kirpan and may or may not have agreed to its presence.

If the law of the aircraft industry (or security in travel) agrees the Kirpan may be used for aggressive purposes, why should schools be any different?

 

[tracy]

The main reason I would assume is that people don't need to take aircrafts like they need to attend school. I also think it has to do with some amount of common sense. Terrorism and hijackings have happened on airplanes and are a real issue. No one has ever been attacked in school by a 12 year old with a kirpan.

Mogz, perhaps your friend and his daughter should do what this boy and his family did.

 

[Curiosity]

Tracy

Good point - I have been hunting around for Kirpan violence and it seems limited....there was a case which I'll link to here....in Canada ... which ruled in favor of the Kirpan against a School Board...interesting stuff....arguments for both sides.

I am only interested in one-sided discrimination and I believe this is a good example of one case. Perhaps the "violence" argument is not a good one as it doesn't bear fruit in schools...(a good thing)....

I still believe preferential treatment to any one religious group is the wrong path to follow. It has happened too often in the U.S. and has led to even more separation and discrimination.

Here's the case...http://www.sikhcoalition.org/LegalCanada5.asp

 

[the caracal kid]

What Mogz says..and double that! This is exactly what is wrong with the Charter Of Rights here. Total religious freedom..or none!

isn't that exactly what is being sought?

the problem is that until a case makes it to the SCC every juristiction is free to implement its own ordinances and as is always the case, "the sqeaky wheel gets the grease".

We need to achieve equality of expression. We won't see a banning of all religious symbols given the "nature" of Canada so either laws need to be pre-emptively implemented at the national level or it is up to individuals to "fight" for their "right of expression".

History shows how a persecuted group quickly learns how to persecute and tends to do so once given the chance. The past inequalities caused the divisions that fuel the inequalities of today. If only people could look beyond such petty obsessions and appreciate their commonalities.