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Cut Israel Off
- Thread starter JBeee
- Start date
As a Yank who has paid enough taxes over the years, I've long been sick of seeing my dollars go off to Israel. Hell, they use those dollars to give medical insurance for their citizens but we in the USA can't get any coverage for ourselves! Ain't that a f****d up deal??
So yeah, cut off Israel from our aid. But let's get our money back, with interest!!
So yeah, cut off Israel from our aid. But let's get our money back, with interest!!
It wasn't the Palestinians who attacked the USS Liberty thereby killing 34 USA servicemen and injuring at least 170.
James Miller
Yes, I remember well when his murder by the Zionist Gestapo was presented on BBC --- why weren't those terrorists executed for their crime???
Yes, I remember well when his murder by the Zionist Gestapo was presented on BBC --- why weren't those terrorists executed for their crime???
They had an election and got a dose of democracy, and that's frightening stuff to some.
No, they had an election and proved they had no interest in democracy, devolving into armed camps. They decided "Why give up the reigns of power just because we lose a vote? We have guns!"
This is one of the reasons the territories need to be occupied, they were better off under Israel than without.
Until anyone on this forum can tell me what it's like to have your land taken from you and you and your family are made prisoners in your own country ...the rest is bull.....
In case you didn't hear this before, Palestinians didn't vote to be occupied and reduced to second class citizenship...
Maybe that's the way people would like it in New Brunswick or other places in Canada, but ask someone from Arizona or New Mexico or parts of SE United States how they feel about special privilege and attention given to displaced Mexicans...both legal and illegal....
Once again folk have demonstrated their rejection of reasoned debate and play the tired old song about democracy....
Democracy doesn't exist in Israel anymore than it exists in Canada or the United States. The world in case you've been away for a couple of hundred years is ruled by business and corporate interests...
You vote and you're consistantly and repeatedly disappointed by government and you still think the sham of a democracy here translates to the same kind of democracy "enjoyed" by Palestinians in Israel?
Sure transplanted Europeans occupied North America and we have terrorists in Oka and Ipperwash and Caledonia just pleased as punch with the way that occupation has unfolded....
Gezus people are thick.....
This notion that you can take somones land and tell them how fortunate they are that someone else is in control worked well for the slave trade in America didn't it?
No there was no land taken, just the freedom of slaves and their reduction to second class citizenship is similar to living in a territory occupied by people who don't belong there and who were forced on you by the neighborhood bully....
Someday perhaps the United States will have had enough of Anti-Americanism creeping across the border from Canada and just decide that this would be a great place for all the illegal immigrants and HIV folk, the trash of their society sent to live in wonderful Canada....and Canadians would think that's just a wonderful solution now wouldn't they?
You sit peacefully sipping your coffee and reading the paper while Israeli and Palestinian families grieve for their fallen children and you have the balls to think you understand how these people feel?
In case you didn't hear this before, Palestinians didn't vote to be occupied and reduced to second class citizenship...
Maybe that's the way people would like it in New Brunswick or other places in Canada, but ask someone from Arizona or New Mexico or parts of SE United States how they feel about special privilege and attention given to displaced Mexicans...both legal and illegal....
Once again folk have demonstrated their rejection of reasoned debate and play the tired old song about democracy....
Democracy doesn't exist in Israel anymore than it exists in Canada or the United States. The world in case you've been away for a couple of hundred years is ruled by business and corporate interests...
You vote and you're consistantly and repeatedly disappointed by government and you still think the sham of a democracy here translates to the same kind of democracy "enjoyed" by Palestinians in Israel?
Sure transplanted Europeans occupied North America and we have terrorists in Oka and Ipperwash and Caledonia just pleased as punch with the way that occupation has unfolded....
Gezus people are thick.....
This notion that you can take somones land and tell them how fortunate they are that someone else is in control worked well for the slave trade in America didn't it?
No there was no land taken, just the freedom of slaves and their reduction to second class citizenship is similar to living in a territory occupied by people who don't belong there and who were forced on you by the neighborhood bully....
Someday perhaps the United States will have had enough of Anti-Americanism creeping across the border from Canada and just decide that this would be a great place for all the illegal immigrants and HIV folk, the trash of their society sent to live in wonderful Canada....and Canadians would think that's just a wonderful solution now wouldn't they?
You sit peacefully sipping your coffee and reading the paper while Israeli and Palestinian families grieve for their fallen children and you have the balls to think you understand how these people feel?
Has it occurred to anyone here at CC what the dynamic is that's at work in the Middle East?
"They proved they don't want democracy"......demonstrates a willingness to overlook the obvious....
Islamic societies have NEVER BEEN DEMOCRACIES! When the cultural imperative is to support the religious underpinnings of your ancestors and your society and those underpinnings declare that political power and the "running" of your nation is correctly and appropriately left in the hands of the believer community, DEMOCRACY isn't a concept that you play with for any length of time.
This great DEMOCRACY that the U.S. and an apparently significant number of Canadians applaud and want to see transplanted to the Middle East is just as corrupt and just as ill-suited and ill-tempered as any religious hegemony.
List the frequency and severity of cultural turmoils that have plagued Western-Style Democracies....
In Canada we still have Supreme Court Justices who favor beating a woman with a stick as a method of "correction"....
We permit the Roman Catholic Church to sexually abuse women and children....
We have never come to terms with slavery (United States) and the echoes of a radicalized sub-society are once again rising to the surface....
We support and endorse the notion that the wealthy have a different set of laws than do the poor...that it's perfectly OK for a million Canadians to need foodbanks to feed their families....
The list is lengthy and yet this is the great DEMOCRACY you'd like to see alive and well in Israel ...or you think exists there now!?
Yer baked.....
"They proved they don't want democracy"......demonstrates a willingness to overlook the obvious....
Islamic societies have NEVER BEEN DEMOCRACIES! When the cultural imperative is to support the religious underpinnings of your ancestors and your society and those underpinnings declare that political power and the "running" of your nation is correctly and appropriately left in the hands of the believer community, DEMOCRACY isn't a concept that you play with for any length of time.
This great DEMOCRACY that the U.S. and an apparently significant number of Canadians applaud and want to see transplanted to the Middle East is just as corrupt and just as ill-suited and ill-tempered as any religious hegemony.
List the frequency and severity of cultural turmoils that have plagued Western-Style Democracies....
In Canada we still have Supreme Court Justices who favor beating a woman with a stick as a method of "correction"....
We permit the Roman Catholic Church to sexually abuse women and children....
We have never come to terms with slavery (United States) and the echoes of a radicalized sub-society are once again rising to the surface....
We support and endorse the notion that the wealthy have a different set of laws than do the poor...that it's perfectly OK for a million Canadians to need foodbanks to feed their families....
The list is lengthy and yet this is the great DEMOCRACY you'd like to see alive and well in Israel ...or you think exists there now!?
Yer baked.....
1.) People will always believe what they want, Im glad that we have a justice who believes in beating women with sticks. It means even people with nutball views like that have fair representation in all aspects of our society. Note they aren't a majority, so you can't infact beat wives with sticks.
2.) We don't let them. Seeing as we don't have mind control devices nor should we, people excersize their free will, we catch them causing wrongs, and punish them. People commit crimes in all nations on earth, so this isn't unique to the west.
3.) Yes they did come to terms with it, quite dramatically. Poverty takes hundreds of years to mix in with the general population, but its happening slowly. Wealth doesn't ebb and flow that quickly, for anyone. Their are now wealthy (as in long term wealth) black families in the USA, so it definately is changing, but things don't happen with a magic wand.
4.) All nations have this concept, the difference is, here we HAVE foodbanks to feed them.
So far you've just railed against universal human sufferings, in aspects we are better off then them (because of our political system) and somehow in "yer baked" mind, think that proves the opposite.
Calm down, think rationally.
2.) We don't let them. Seeing as we don't have mind control devices nor should we, people excersize their free will, we catch them causing wrongs, and punish them. People commit crimes in all nations on earth, so this isn't unique to the west.
3.) Yes they did come to terms with it, quite dramatically. Poverty takes hundreds of years to mix in with the general population, but its happening slowly. Wealth doesn't ebb and flow that quickly, for anyone. Their are now wealthy (as in long term wealth) black families in the USA, so it definately is changing, but things don't happen with a magic wand.
4.) All nations have this concept, the difference is, here we HAVE foodbanks to feed them.
So far you've just railed against universal human sufferings, in aspects we are better off then them (because of our political system) and somehow in "yer baked" mind, think that proves the opposite.
Calm down, think rationally.
I know we can't agree. But I enjoy the debate. You are right, the information is dated. I also agree that Arabs are better off as second class citizens in Israel than they would be as equal citizens under the Palestinian authority or many of Israel's neighbors. By the way, I think Israel should be gradually weaned off military aid, not cut off. I believe in gradualism. Abrupt change would lead to an escalation of violence. Israel still practices torture, but so does the US and many other close American allies (Egypt and Saudi Arabia)
Z: I'll reference Arabs for Israel:
Israel is a colony for Jewish refugees violently imposed on the region. This region was more or less peaceful until it was overrun and ethnically cleansed by Zionists. If these people (Arabs for Israel) were the ones removed from their homes by force, I doubt they would describe Israel so kindly. The Jewish refugees who fled to this region had the potential to be an asset to the region, but that's not the way it turned out.
Israel's legitimacy is based on their use of violence and overwhelming firepower, not because they met the terms of their recognition as a state by the UN. Israel still hasn't allowed refugees who fled the area to return as they said they would 60 years ago. The threat wasn't that these people were violent, because most were unarmed civilians. Israel never allowed these people to return 60 years ago and its too late for that too happen now. Few are still alive and their descendants are pissed that they have been forced to suffer all these years. At the time, most of these people could have returned peacefully, but they weren't allowed to return in direct contradiction of the terms for Israel's acceptance into the UN, for the same reason they were forced out... they weren't Jewish.
I agree with resolving problems non-violently. "Jihad" means "struggle". To struggle is not un-Islamic. Jihad could also apply to a Muslim student studying hard at university. The Qu'ran allows Muslims to react violently in response to violence, oppression and injustice. Muslims removed by force from their homes, loosing their property to state sanctioned theft, have suffered violence, oppression and injustice. They have a religious obligation to resist. The Qu'ran doesn't require Muslims to use violence to resist violence, injustice and oppression. But they are required to resist. Many of Israel's victims do resist non-violently. Their resistance doesn't make the news, because beating unarmed protesters makes Israel look bad.
This weekly event should be reported but it never is:
What these people do each week, meets the definition of "jihad". But since their non-violent resistance isn't reported, it doesn't have the full effect it could have.
I seriously doubt the people Israel ethnic cleansed and cleanses and their descendants will ever get justice, until the world recognizes their suffering.
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Israel currently detains thousands of Palestinian men, women and children. Many of these people have never been charged with a crime. Some of these people are militants, but most of them aren't. Many of them are elected politicians or related to people Israel would like to capture.
The Torture and Ill-Treatment of Palestinian Detainees
http://www.btselem.org/English/Publications/Summaries/200705_Utterly_Forbidden.asp
Statistics on Palestinians in the custody of the Israeli security forces
http://www.btselem.org/english/statistics/Detainees_and_Prisoners.asp
The last column in the above link refers to administrative detainees. That means people held without being charged with a crime.
But to add a few details to BBC reporter story:
Gaza is a desperate place full of desperate people. Hamas may not be that friendly toward Israel, but they have a good record regarding foreigners including this reporter. I suggest you read about his experience in his own words:
http://bushradionews.blogspot.com/2007/11/special-feature.html
Lucky for Mr. Johnston he wasn't treated the same way many Palestinians are treated while held captive by Israel.
Zzarchov
You missed the point here I think....
It's been Canada and the United States and Britain (with the American agenda leading the pack) that have suggested that "democracy" as it's recognized in North America is a system of freedoms and government by the people for the people who subscibe to a system of rules and law that establish the "rights" that citizens enjoy....in these "democracies".
How long has it taken for women to be granted the vote in North America? How long has it taken women to find equality before the criminal justice system or the economic systems of these nations?
These "freedoms" arrived to our societies only after the need was identified and after many women fought for them.
My point is that you can of course point to dissimilarities in Middle Eastern nations with the systems of government and law that apply to citizens in those countries, but you seem to forget that Canada and the United States are roughly two hundred years old....
For thousands of years the governments and cultures and societies that call the Middle East their "home" lived under patriarchal regimes supported by religious fervor that established the "value" of women...among other issues.
They are tribal societies that subscribe to an ancient framework of laws intimately bound to religious ritual and practice.
How reasonable is it to expect "success" "transplanting" what you believe to be a far superior system of government and society onto these folk in the Middle East?
Even in the two hundred years of "emergent democracy", it has been a fight to achieve equality for women and others...and that fight is far from over.
An "enlighted democracy" that takes what it wants from whomever it wants (Britain France, Canada, United States et al while grevious disparities and a climate far from equality and social justice exists at the very foundation of these "democracies".
Does the youngster in Abu Dhabi learn about the process of the Magna Carta and the BNA act on provincial and national governments in Canada or the Constitution and the Bill of Rights of America before he learns to embrace the appetites regarded as prosperous by the influx of MacDonalds, Burger King and Walmart? Is he afforded access to the information that chronicles the fights that social movements and womens movements and human-rights movements were able to mount against the oligarchies and patriarchies of North America? Is his pathway to "freedom" and "democracy" the progression from a stable solvent economy with subscription to a system of law that enshrines individual rights or does he see the ads of western excess and mindlessness as the outcome most likely to be created by a population that celebrates ownership and consumption without regard for consequence.....
The message to the world is to become "America" in habit and behavior and while the excesses of North American consumer populations are well understood, the outcomes developed through this dichotomized reality allow him to see that "justice" in America is different for the wealthy and powerful than it is for the poor and the infirm....just like it is in the system in which he's grown up!
Do you honestly believe that the Saudi woman raped by several men in Saudi Arabia recently doesn't have a corollary in North America? With Britain and the United States as models of the "superior" societies, does that example live-up-to the fantasy that Canadians and Americans harbor as "their system" or does it reflect the fact that millions of Americans and a million Canadians rely on hand-outs from the wealthy? And how might you define the difference between these two systems in light of an honest evaluation of the two?
The members of the United Nations didn't take the time to consider the best interests of either the Jews or the Palestinians when it came to granting a "homeland" to the Jews.
You can of course continue to swallow the propaganda and "right-thinking" that dictates that billions spent by nations "supporting" Israel have achieved that same model of democracy and subscription to law that only a cursory examination of these North American societies easily reveals as far more similar to the experience of Arabs under dictatorships than citizens living in the idealized "democracy" you seem to feel exists.
Is it reasonable to believe that the billions of dollars invested in securing/entrenching the system of monarchy and tribal rule in the Middle East by the consuming nations of the west buying oil and burning that resource to exhaustion....while not holding Pakistan or Saudi Arabia or it's other "friends" to the standards that it claims are the framework upon which democracies are built?
You are of course free to consider me like Thomaska has suggested, a "whiner" and only reach conclusions that fit your particular perception on freedom and democracy... there are millions who know better and many even within the sham ideologies of our "democratic nations" who know exactly the nature of that democracy.
And its the Hispanics and the African Americans and women and the chronically poor in nations of fabulous wealth that are in touch with the nature of the corruption that is "western democracy".
Calm down....I haven't even been up to an idle yet....
You missed the point here I think....
It's been Canada and the United States and Britain (with the American agenda leading the pack) that have suggested that "democracy" as it's recognized in North America is a system of freedoms and government by the people for the people who subscibe to a system of rules and law that establish the "rights" that citizens enjoy....in these "democracies".
How long has it taken for women to be granted the vote in North America? How long has it taken women to find equality before the criminal justice system or the economic systems of these nations?
These "freedoms" arrived to our societies only after the need was identified and after many women fought for them.
My point is that you can of course point to dissimilarities in Middle Eastern nations with the systems of government and law that apply to citizens in those countries, but you seem to forget that Canada and the United States are roughly two hundred years old....
For thousands of years the governments and cultures and societies that call the Middle East their "home" lived under patriarchal regimes supported by religious fervor that established the "value" of women...among other issues.
They are tribal societies that subscribe to an ancient framework of laws intimately bound to religious ritual and practice.
How reasonable is it to expect "success" "transplanting" what you believe to be a far superior system of government and society onto these folk in the Middle East?
Even in the two hundred years of "emergent democracy", it has been a fight to achieve equality for women and others...and that fight is far from over.
An "enlighted democracy" that takes what it wants from whomever it wants (Britain France, Canada, United States et al while grevious disparities and a climate far from equality and social justice exists at the very foundation of these "democracies".
Does the youngster in Abu Dhabi learn about the process of the Magna Carta and the BNA act on provincial and national governments in Canada or the Constitution and the Bill of Rights of America before he learns to embrace the appetites regarded as prosperous by the influx of MacDonalds, Burger King and Walmart? Is he afforded access to the information that chronicles the fights that social movements and womens movements and human-rights movements were able to mount against the oligarchies and patriarchies of North America? Is his pathway to "freedom" and "democracy" the progression from a stable solvent economy with subscription to a system of law that enshrines individual rights or does he see the ads of western excess and mindlessness as the outcome most likely to be created by a population that celebrates ownership and consumption without regard for consequence.....
The message to the world is to become "America" in habit and behavior and while the excesses of North American consumer populations are well understood, the outcomes developed through this dichotomized reality allow him to see that "justice" in America is different for the wealthy and powerful than it is for the poor and the infirm....just like it is in the system in which he's grown up!
Do you honestly believe that the Saudi woman raped by several men in Saudi Arabia recently doesn't have a corollary in North America? With Britain and the United States as models of the "superior" societies, does that example live-up-to the fantasy that Canadians and Americans harbor as "their system" or does it reflect the fact that millions of Americans and a million Canadians rely on hand-outs from the wealthy? And how might you define the difference between these two systems in light of an honest evaluation of the two?
The members of the United Nations didn't take the time to consider the best interests of either the Jews or the Palestinians when it came to granting a "homeland" to the Jews.
You can of course continue to swallow the propaganda and "right-thinking" that dictates that billions spent by nations "supporting" Israel have achieved that same model of democracy and subscription to law that only a cursory examination of these North American societies easily reveals as far more similar to the experience of Arabs under dictatorships than citizens living in the idealized "democracy" you seem to feel exists.
Is it reasonable to believe that the billions of dollars invested in securing/entrenching the system of monarchy and tribal rule in the Middle East by the consuming nations of the west buying oil and burning that resource to exhaustion....while not holding Pakistan or Saudi Arabia or it's other "friends" to the standards that it claims are the framework upon which democracies are built?
You are of course free to consider me like Thomaska has suggested, a "whiner" and only reach conclusions that fit your particular perception on freedom and democracy... there are millions who know better and many even within the sham ideologies of our "democratic nations" who know exactly the nature of that democracy.
And its the Hispanics and the African Americans and women and the chronically poor in nations of fabulous wealth that are in touch with the nature of the corruption that is "western democracy".
Calm down....I haven't even been up to an idle yet....
Why should Israel allow for the "right of return"? After the experience of Gaza what do you think that the Israelis expect from any such measures in the West Bank? Israel only exists today because it has won wars and maintains the ability to vigorously defend itself. Why should it now abandon it's defences.It may seem obvious that the Palestinians deserve a better lot than they have been afforded, but if you had a choice of defending your people, your children, or taking the chance of being reduced to a memory can you honestly say that you would do it. Moral or not the survival of Israel is dependent on such decisions.My personal opinion is that Israel should immediately abandon the West Bank and Gaza and unilaterally declare these areas are no longer the responsibility of Israel. If the Palestinians want to make a viable nation from these areas, then fine. Any further agression from the territories will be treated as an act of war. Greater Israel is as abhorrent as Greater Syria.
How is it that the Arabs in Isreal are considered "second class" citizens? What is it that makes them "second class citizens?" Is it the fact they can vote?? Is it because they can conduct business within Isreal? What specifically makes them second class?? Just askin'....
Ah, I see you line of logic MickeyDB, but your missing a big point.
America and Canada are also from Millenia old patriarchial cultures which are in fact LESS liberal than the muslim world traditionally.
And yet, we have managed to surpass them. You are forgetting most of the Arab and Muslim world are colonies no different than North America.
Afghanistan used to be Buddhist, Iran Zoroastian, Egypt Christian.
If European nations can go from tyrannies spreading back millenia to liberal democracies often in a single generation and have their standard of living improve, why is it you think an area with a much more liberal and enlightened history would have an impossible time doing just that?
Up until we surpassed them, much of Muslim culture was reknowned for their liberal treatment of women and minorities.
Its utter bullcrap to pretend they are somehow inferior to us and they can't improve their way of life and shed off oppressive cultural habits.
America and Canada are also from Millenia old patriarchial cultures which are in fact LESS liberal than the muslim world traditionally.
And yet, we have managed to surpass them. You are forgetting most of the Arab and Muslim world are colonies no different than North America.
Afghanistan used to be Buddhist, Iran Zoroastian, Egypt Christian.
If European nations can go from tyrannies spreading back millenia to liberal democracies often in a single generation and have their standard of living improve, why is it you think an area with a much more liberal and enlightened history would have an impossible time doing just that?
Up until we surpassed them, much of Muslim culture was reknowned for their liberal treatment of women and minorities.
Its utter bullcrap to pretend they are somehow inferior to us and they can't improve their way of life and shed off oppressive cultural habits.
This paper might be helpful to understand how Israeli Arabs are second class citizens in a Jewish state:
So they are second class citizens because magic unwritten laws exist?
Show me a democracy without that feature. I mean, they aren't second class citizens when they have all the same rights and make up part of the government in free elections.
Aparathied South Africa had second class citizens. Saying "Certain religions gain privelage under legislation" Applies to Canada and Catholic schools as well.
Sheesh.
Show me a democracy without that feature. I mean, they aren't second class citizens when they have all the same rights and make up part of the government in free elections.
Aparathied South Africa had second class citizens. Saying "Certain religions gain privelage under legislation" Applies to Canada and Catholic schools as well.
Sheesh.
`` Aparathied South Africa had second class citizens.``
And Zionist Israel was that government's biggest supporter. See Benjamin-Beit Hallahami {op cit}.
And Zionist Israel was that government's biggest supporter. See Benjamin-Beit Hallahami {op cit}.