Courage????

[Cliffy]

I don't think I'm misreading those sentences. If I am, and he can confirm that, I'll retract, but that is how I read what was said.

I find it interesting that those that see heroism in the Arab Spring movement were also the loudest to shout against the occupy movement. Many of those people risked life and limb against police brutality for something they believed in and were passionate about.

I'm talking about the hypocrisy of those who supported the Arabs fight for social justice while condemning those who were trying to do the same thing here. The amount of police brutality has nothing to do with it. By demeaning and demonizing the occupy movement makes it easy to justify the fact that the NY police did attack protestors at the beginning and in many other cities, is seen as justified in the same mannor that Iraq and Afghanistan was demonized to justified us bombing the crap out of civilians and driving them back into the stone age. It may be about a matter of degrees to some, but I'm talking about intent and tactics, propaganda and the tolerance for violence against any group of people. The level of violence is inconsequential.

 

[CDNBear]

The level of violence is inconsequential.

I agree. But the Arab Spring was about getting out from under real tyranny.

The OWS movement was about money. Wealth inequality.

Although I agreed in principle with the premise of the OWS movement. I do not agree with what they brought to the forefront as the banner message. Which came to be the extreme opposite reaction to wealth inequality.

What I found unpalatable was only compounded by the face men that graced the pages of the daily's, and the copious amount of vids on YouTube. Actual, or self proclaimed leaders, they sent the wrong message.

 

[oleoleolanda]

I find it interesting that those that see heroism in the Arab Spring movement were also the loudest to shout against the occupy movement. Many of those people risked life and limb against police brutality for something they believed in and were passionate about.

I'm talking about the hypocrisy of those who supported the Arabs fight for social justice while condemning those who were trying to do the same thing here. The amount of police brutality has nothing to do with it. By demeaning and demonizing the occupy movement makes it easy to justify the fact that the NY police did attack protestors at the beginning and in many other cities, is seen as justified in the same mannor that Iraq and Afghanistan was demonized to justified us bombing the crap out of civilians and driving them back into the stone age. It may be about a matter of degrees to some, but I'm talking about intent and tactics, propaganda and the tolerance for violence against any group of people. The level of violence is inconsequential.

Cliffy, all the security preparation and police presence was to ensure the safety of participants in the G20 meetings. They were not to stop protestors from protesting. That is a fundamental difference. And the reason for all the measures was becauce there is always a group of "protestors" at G20 summits who engage in acts of violence, and of course, the concern over potential acts of terrorism.

Protecting people from acts of violence is a role that the police plays in democratic societies. In a police state, their role is to attack and silence people who protest and to prevent them from protesting anywhere.

There were individuals at the G20 who engaged in acts of violence, not just against the police, but agains cars and businesses. The right to riot is not a democratic right or freedom. Again, the police intervened not to stop people from protesting but to stop them from rioting. I watched the riots live on TV and there was a moment where the rioters and people living in an apartment on top of a Starbucks that had been hit were arguing, with the people whose home was being threatened telling the rioters to go. The reporter heard the rioters say they were going to burn the place down. Shortly after, the police arrived in large numbers--to protect.

Yes, there were individual abuses of power, yes, the situation got heated. It was tense and it was human, but it had nothing to do with people not being allowed to protest or a police state.

I wish everyone who thinks that the G20 is an example of a police state, or repression of freedom and rights, would live for a few years in a dictatorship or fascist or communist or Islamist state so they could begin to understand what it really is to not have freedom of speech, freedom to protest. We live in a mature democracy and that makes us very lucky. Yes, there's all kinds of problems and things that need fixing and improving and yes, these include at times issues with the police but comparisons to fascism, police states, repression, denial of rights to demonstrate, etc. is sort of like a kid being grounded for a weekend at home comparing that to being a tortured political prisoner in Iran.

 

[Cliffy]

I agree. But the Arab Spring was about getting out from under real tyranny.

The OWS movement was about money. Wealth inequality.

Although I agreed in principle with the premise of the OWS movement. I do not agree with what they brought to the forefront as the banner message. Which came to be the extreme opposite reaction to wealth inequality.

What I found unpalatable was only compounded by the face men that graced the pages of the daily's, and the copious amount of vids on YouTube. Actual, or self proclaimed leaders, they sent the wrong message.

I think the bailouts were robbing from the poor to give to the rich. That is what the protests were about. There was also a lot of media bias and interviewing of self proclaimed leaders who were probably plants. Using police brutality to suppress peaceful protest is tyranny. Again a matter of degrees.The constant presentation of Lotion Man and the homeless and drug addicts present for free food as representative of the protestors was just plain propaganda tactics. The message got lost in the media frenzy to discredit the movement.

 

[darkbeaver]

Wealth inequality is a politically correct spelling of real tyranny.

 

[CDNBear]

I think the bailouts were robbing from the poor to give to the rich. That is what the protests were about. There was also a lot of media bias and interviewing of self proclaimed leaders who were probably plants. Using police brutality to suppress peaceful protest is tyranny. Again a matter of degrees.The constant presentation of Lotion Man and the homeless and drug addicts present for free food as representative of the protestors was just plain propaganda tactics. The message got lost in the media frenzy to discredit the movement.

That's your perspective. Mine obviously differs.

Wealth inequality is a politically correct spelling of real tyranny.

What do you know of either? You healthy trust fund shields you from any paper tyranny, real or imagined.

 

[darkbeaver]

That's your perspective. Mine obviously differs.

What do you know of either? You healthy trust fund shields you from any paper tyranny, real or imagined.

Hey, I drew down the old trust kinda muchly over the hollydays hows about lendin six or seven thou to cover next week. I'll have to cancel my ski trip with the blond triplets if I can't put the bite on another rich guy like you.

 

[oleoleolanda]

For heroes... I think all the firemen who went into the WTC just before the tower collapsed, putting themselves in danger to rescue people are heroes. Well, all firemen and firewomen are heroes, really.

 

[Goober]

Sorry Goober, didn't mean to participate in the side tracking. My offering:.

No need for anyone to apologize. My error in the OP. I was using an event from the Shoah and did not want this to turn into a Holocaust Denial event.
Win some, come close on the others I say.

 

[SLM]

I find it interesting that those that see heroism in the Arab Spring movement were also the loudest to shout against the occupy movement. Many of those people risked life and limb against police brutality for something they believed in and were passionate about.

I'm talking about the hypocrisy of those who supported the Arabs fight for social justice while condemning those who were trying to do the same thing here. The amount of police brutality has nothing to do with it. By demeaning and demonizing the occupy movement makes it easy to justify the fact that the NY police did attack protestors at the beginning and in many other cities, is seen as justified in the same mannor that Iraq and Afghanistan was demonized to justified us bombing the crap out of civilians and driving them back into the stone age. It may be about a matter of degrees to some, but I'm talking about intent and tactics, propaganda and the tolerance for violence against any group of people. The level of violence is inconsequential.

Just to clarify myself, I have nothing against anyone who fights for what they believe in, whether I agree with their argument or not. I don't actually disagree with the sentiment behind the Occupy protests. There is real inequality, in power and in wealth and it's probably beyond time that someone stood up and said something. Unfortunately it was, and this is just my opinion, a rather incoherent mess of a message. You can blame the media to a certain degree sure but the bottom line is they ultimately failed to get the support of the majority of the people behind them. It's easy to point a finger at the government but the reality is, if the message is just and is supported by the masses, then real change is possible. The Civil Rights movement for example.

I'm not justifying any real case of police brutality, it does happen, I'm not denying that. But comparing the risk to life and limb of the occupy protestors to the risk incurred by those in Syria, in Libya? Doesn't even compare. And no, that doesn't justify the harm done to anyone over here, but comparing them and calling them the same does, in my opinion, demean those who were really risking their lives.

 

[Goober]

For heroes... I think all the firemen who went into the WTC just before the tower collapsed, putting themselves in danger to rescue people are heroes. Well, all firemen and firewomen are heroes, really.

The SAR Techs - Search and Rescue - and all those that look for the lost and injured.

 

[Spade]

Médecins Sans Frontières

 

[Goober]

Médecins Sans Frontières

Without a doubt, they are a dedicated group of people. And they put their lives on the line daily.

 

[Goober]

Medal of Bravery to be presented to Steve Degrace for his rescue of man trapped in a burning building | News | National Post

Someone had to save them’: Medal of Bravery honoree rushed into burning house

Steve Degrace and his wife, Chantal, headed out Sept. 18, 2009, from the northern New Brunswick beach town of Beresford, on a five-and-a-half-hour drive to the bright lights of Halifax, and a long-awaited vacation.

Crossing through Miramichi, N.B., they saw clouds of thick black smoke. It quickly became clear a house was on fire.

“We saw the smoke and turned around. We were the first ones there. The lady was almost at the door. So, Steve went and helped her out, but she said her husband was inside. I was really scared, but I was too busy calling 911 and trying to stop cars for help,” Chantal Degrace recalled this week.

 

[Mowich]

Acts of courage. Everyday acts and those that can stun the world. Where one act of courage, the young man whose act of suicide started the Arab Spring.

He is another story from a time forgotten by many and denied by a large swath of so called humanity as never happening, or numbers ain't right.

This thread is for those, many who die that when confronted with tragic events, they put their lives at risk to save others.

Heroines of Auschwitz


On Jan. 27, 1945, 67 years ago today, the Soviet Army liberated Auschwitz. From 1942 to late 1944, the concentration camp became the center of the wholesale murder of European Jewry. There were others - Treblinka, Sobibor, Chelmno, Belzec, Majdanek, to name just a few. But it was Auschwitz that was to become the archetype of genocide. The gas chambers of Auschwitz took the lives of an estimated 1.1 million people, almost a million of them Jews.

Yet within Auschwitz's horror there were unique acts of bravery from which we must always take heart. The courage of Anna (Wajcblum) Heilman and the women of the Auschwitz munitions factory is one such story.

By mid 1944, the inmates knew that Germany was losing the war. Believing they would die anyway, Anna and her friends wanted to find a way to fight back, to give their deaths meaning. Ester, Anna, and a few other female prisoners began to smuggle gunpowder from the factory, a tiny amount at a time, hidden in their kerchiefs or sleeves. Being caught meant instant execution.

The young women gave the smuggled gunpowder to a young Polish Jew named Rosa Robota, who in turn passed it on to the Sonderkommando, a detail of Jewish male slave crematoria workers. These Sonderkommando included Soviet prisoners of war who knew how to make improvised explosives.

On Oct. 7, 1944, the Sonderkommando revolted, attacking the SS with stones, axes and homemade grenades produced from the smuggled gunpowder.

Several SS were killed. One of the four crematoria was severely damaged by the improvised explosives. It was never used again, saving many lives. The Sonderkommando were all killed.

The SS traced the gunpowder back to the munitions plant. Anna's sister Ester and three other young women, Ala Gertner, Rosa Robota and Regina Safirstajn, were tortured for months by the SS. But they gave up only the names of the Sonderkommando, who were already dead. They did not betray Anna or the others involved.

Thank you Goober. Excellent post.