CIA Official: No Proof Harsh Techniques Stopped Terror Attacks

[catman]

WASHINGTON - The CIA inspector general in 2004 found that there was no conclusive proof that waterboarding or other harsh interrogation techniques helped the Bush administration thwart any "specific imminent attacks," according to recently declassified Justice Department memos.

That undercuts assertions by former vice president Dick Cheney and other former Bush administration officials that the use of harsh interrogation tactics including waterboarding, which is widely considered torture, was justified because it headed off terrorist attacks.
The risks and effectiveness of waterboarding and other enhanced techniques are at the center of an increasingly heated debate over how thoroughly to investigate the CIA's secret detention and interrogation programs.
"It is difficult to quantify with confidence and precision the effectiveness of the program," Steven G. Bradbury, then the Justice Department's principal deputy assistant attorney general, wrote in a May 30, 2005, memo to CIA General Counsel John Rizzo, one of four released last week by the Obama administration.
"As the IG Report notes, it is difficult to determine conclusively whether interrogations provided information critical to interdicting specific imminent attacks. And because the CIA has used enhanced techniques sparingly, 'there is limited data on which to assess their individual effectiveness'," Bradbury wrote, quoting the IG report.
Nevertheless, Bradbury concluded in his May 2005 memos that the program had been effective, although the still secret reports by Inspector General John Helgerson had been disseminated a full year earlier.
Helgerson also concluded that waterboarding was riskier than officials claimed and reported that the CIA's Office of Medical Services thought that the risk to the health of some prisoners outweighed any potential intelligence benefit, according to the memos.
The IG's report is among several indications that the Bush administration's use of abusive interrogation methods was less productive than some former administration officials have claimed.
Even some of those in the military who developed the techniques warned that the information they produced was "less reliable" than that gained by traditional psychological measures, and that using them would produce an "intolerable public and political backlash when discovered," according to a Senate Armed Services Committee report released on Tuesday.
President Bush told a September 2006 news conference that one plot, to attack a Los Angeles office tower, was "derailed" in early 2002 - before the harsh CIA interrogation measures were approved, contrary to those who claim that waterboarding revealed it.
Last December, FBI Director Robert Mueller told Vanity Fair magazine that he didn't believe that intelligence gleaned from abusive interrogation techniques had disrupted any attacks on America.
The New York Times first reported Helgerson's inspector general's report in November 2005, but details of its contents have remained secret. A version of the report that the CIA turned over to the ACLU in May 2008 in response to a lawsuit consisted primarily of heavy black lines and notations of sections that had been redacted.
A CIA spokesman said Friday that he knew of no plans to release a more complete version.
Jameel Jaffer, the director of the ACLU's National Security Project, said the declassification of the Helgerson report is the subject of a court case before the 2nd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals.
"We hope that we'll be able to negotiate a less redacted version of that report," Jaffer said, adding that the release of the Justice Department memos has increased pressure for more revelations.

"It's a crucial document," he said. "It will shed light on what kind of measures the CIA was using before August 2002" and whether they exceeded limits imposed by the Justice Department lawyers.

Two of the memos declassified last week, however, cite the IG report at least 34 times, often quoting it verbatim. Those citations provide the first glimpse of the spy agency's inspector general's analysis of the interrogation program.

The Bradbury memos that cite the inspector general's report reveal that officials at CIA headquarters insisted on the repeated waterboarding of Abu Zubaydah, the first prisoner to undergo the technique, even after the interrogators on the scene sought to discontinue the technique.

CIA official: no proof harsh techniques stopped terror attacks on America | McClatchy

 

[gopher]

Torture? It Probably Killed More Americans than 9/11 | CommonDreams.org


there is some evidence that torture led to the growth of terrorism overseas


''
The use of torture by the US has proved so counter-productive that it may have led to the death of as many US soldiers as civilians killed in 9/11, says the leader of a crack US interrogation team in Iraq.
"The reason why foreign fighters joined al-Qa'ida in Iraq was overwhelmingly because of abuses at Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib and not Islamic ideology," says Major Matthew Alexander, who personally conducted 300 interrogations of prisoners in Iraq. ''

 

[Cliffy]

American foriegn policy has been responsible for more war and civil wars that an other cause. Most third world countries have felt unrest caused by US interference in their internal affairs. Political assassinations, overturning democratically elected governments and replacing them with brutal dictatorships. US foriegn policy is to perpetrate war in order to keep their military/industrial complex active and rich.

 

[earth_as_one]

I doubt torture is that big of a recruitment factor. Bigger factors would be the presence of hostile foreign troops in your country and theft of natural resources (oil). One of the main targets in Iraq has been pipelines.
Iraq Pipeline Watch

I'm sure Abu Ghraib torture didn't help.

One of the Bush regime's justifications for invading Iraq was that Hussein tortured people. After what Americans were doing at Abu Ghraib became known, the Bush regime toned down their anti-torture rhetoric, due to the fact that it made them look hypocritical. Now that they were the torturers, it became a good thing which stopped alleged "ticking bombs".

I also disagree that torture is effective. People will say whatever they believe will end the torture, not necessarily the truth. I've yet to see any evidence that torturing people has saved any lives and stopped any ticking bombs.

Likely all torture has accomplished is its given our adversaries a justification for treating our soldiers harshly.

 

[ironsides]

You poor naive people, the so called torture they say the U.S. did, is no worse than what U.S. troops go thru in "Escape and Evasion" class's. Water Boarding, sleep depravation, put in a tub filled with ice, now maybe they will tell you anything to get you to stop, then again maybe the truth will come out. (most of the time you get something inbetween.) But it is not mutilation, constant beatings, electric shock or beheadings.

 

[MHz]

I wonder how this reporter labels one method known to be used?
Sheila Casey: Journalist bets he can stand waterboarding for 15 seconds (Video)

 

[ironsides]

I wonder how this reporter labels one method known to be used?
Sheila Casey: Journalist bets he can stand waterboarding for 15 seconds (Video)

Water Boarding will cause mental panic, but it was never designed to kill. The video is a excellent example, just for the record, I did not make 20 seconds and I trained for it. I will concede that it is a degree of torture, but no where is it even close to what they do. We did get reliable information most of the time using it, and just the thought of a repeat performance was usually enough to get them to talk..

 

[MHz]

Would that be more (accurate and given much faster) than what a wad of cash and a new country could buy?

 

[catman]

You poor naive people, the so called torture they say the U.S. did, is no worse than what U.S. troops go thru in "Escape and Evasion" class's. Water Boarding, sleep depravation, put in a tub filled with ice, now maybe they will tell you anything to get you to stop, then again maybe the truth will come out. (most of the time you get something inbetween.) But it is not mutilation, constant beatings, electric shock or beheadings.

Please offer evidence that US troops are waterboarded during training.

 

[ironsides]

Please offer evidence that US troops are waterboarded during training.

They don't publish training methods, best way to find out is join and volunteer to take the class. I did.

 

[catman]

They don't publish training methods, best way to find out is join and volunteer to take the class. I did.

You underwent watertboarding?

 

[ironsides]

Yes, voluntary I could get up at anytime. That particular course tries to train you as what you can expect if captured. Water boarding is not new, I took that course around 1960.

 

[TenPenny]

So, let me get this straight: American troops are exposed to torture, so they can understand what it would be like if they are captured, and this fact makes torture okay to use, in your books?

 

[ironsides]

So, let me get this straight: American troops are exposed to torture, so they can understand what it would be like if they are captured, and this fact makes torture okay to use, in your books?

I never said torture was ok to use, but it is a fact of war and does happen. A soldier should be prepared for any contingency.

 

[TenPenny]

I guess I misunderstood this:
You poor naive people, the so called torture they say the U.S. did, is no worse than what U.S. troops go thru in "Escape and Evasion" class's. Water Boarding, sleep depravation, put in a tub filled with ice, now maybe they will tell you anything to get you to stop, then again maybe the truth will come out

 

[darkbeaver]

I doubt torture is that big of a recruitment factor. Bigger factors would be the presence of hostile foreign troops in your country and theft of natural resources (oil). One of the main targets in Iraq has been pipelines.
Iraq Pipeline Watch

I'm sure Abu Ghraib torture didn't help.

One of the Bush regime's justifications for invading Iraq was that Hussein tortured people. After what Americans were doing at Abu Ghraib became known, the Bush regime toned down their anti-torture rhetoric, due to the fact that it made them look hypocritical. Now that they were the torturers, it became a good thing which stopped alleged "ticking bombs".

I also disagree that torture is effective. People will say whatever they believe will end the torture, not necessarily the truth. I've yet to see any evidence that torturing people has saved any lives and stopped any ticking bombs.

Likely all torture has accomplished is its given our adversaries a justification for treating our soldiers harshly.

The effectiveness of a programe of torture is its pain potential effect, especially civilian, todays combatant expects it. It is just one tool of a complete terrorism policy. The psycological effect is very much wider than the immediate victims. With that in mind we should begin to understand that the official torture and terrorism policies of the western coalition are aimed at the civilian populations both forigne and domestic. In the end it is aimed primarily at the western domestic population. It was designed and implimented to condition the citizens of the west useing expendable subjects from the subjugated lands but these poor unfortunates were never the target. The torture of the freedom fighters is designed specifically to soften dissent and rebellion at home on the streets of the free. Torture, when viewed in its actual wider sence is very effective, it has already been applied with very good results, witness 9/11 and McVieghs crime and Katrina. It was always a warning in this modern case, to the civilians at home far more than those forigners.
No one should think that torture dosen't work, if you think about it you are already conditioned to avoid activities that may lead you into the arms of the imperial inquizition. As far as extracting usfull information about the fabricated Al-Kada, forget it, AlKada is owned and operated by Mossad, MI5 and the various American special services, that's how you get the most efficient cost effective and controllable terrorism. What's made the war on terrorism so successfull is owning and operating both sides. If you think our leaders aren't up to this, think some more. When you think of the prize you might realize that there is no limits and there will be no quarter given those not firmly in line with the ruling class. IMO

 

[ironsides]

I guess I misunderstood this:
You poor naive people, the so called torture they say the U.S. did, is no worse than what U.S. troops go thru in "Escape and Evasion" class's. Water Boarding, sleep depravation, put in a tub filled with ice, now maybe they will tell you anything to get you to stop, then again maybe the truth will come out

You did..

 

[EagleSmack]

I witnessed water boarding. I didn't know what it was called at the time. To make a long story short we were having a class on interogation and what to say if we were captured etc. One Marine (there's always one) said he wouldn't crack under any circumstances. So the instructor said...

"OK... come down here then... take your shirt off... your t-shirt too... give me a few guys to hold him down...wrap the t-shirt around his head...a little tighter around his face...can you breathe fine Marine?"

"Yes Sgt."

"Good..."

The Sgt takes out his canteen and pours it over his face. Of course the Marine spazzes and he did not last long. After he was let up the Sgt. said that he would have recieved enough oxegyn to breathe and survive WHILE feeling like he was drowning.

Later I found out that was called water boarding.

 

[MHz]

So, let me get this straight: American troops are exposed to torture, so they can understand what it would be like if they are captured, and this fact makes torture okay to use, in your books?

Finally someone makes a statement that I can twist to show that those British sailors Iran had for a few weeks felt fear just from their own training programs, they were expecting to get treated the way they were taught to treat prisoners. Than you very much and now back to your regular programming..

Later I found out that was called water boarding.

I got some pool water up my nose once, I didn't know spilling my guts about all the secrets I knew would make the stinging go away. (note to self, leave wife at home when going swimming in a public pool.)

 

[EagleSmack]

I got some pool water up my nose once, I didn't know spilling my guts about all the secrets I knew would make the stinging go away. (note to self, leave wife at home when going swimming in a public pool.)

Spilling your guts will absolutely make the sting go away!

Next time you get pool water up your nose go to the nearest person and just let it all out. Not just your name rank and serial number... that won't make the sting go away. In fact... you may get more pool water up your nose... tell ALL your secrets... each one... then the sting goes away.