Christian Inclusiveness

Motar

Council Member
Jun 18, 2013
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Dear Sister,
If, by the message, you mean charity, non violence, forgiveness, pacifism, brotherhood, equality, and so on, these ideals are human constructs that elevate our species and are accepted by most sentient creatures. - secular or non.
If, by the message, you mean Jesus was a god, and that the Happy hunting Grounds are reserved for only those who accept this without wincing, then you are right.
Which is better? Your choice, sister.
I remain your brother,
Spade

Your thoughts are always welcome, Dear Brother.

There have been 5,968 recorded views of this thread. Of course, some of these are repeat visits by both active and silent thread participants. It would be interesting to take the following poll:

All Thread Participants: Which message above would you say approximates your personal belief system?

Social Contacts of Thread Participants: Which message above do you feel is being practiced in the life of your thread participant?

The gospel not only imparts the first message, Spade, but rectifies the gap between the belief and practice of it : )
 

Motar

Council Member
Jun 18, 2013
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To embrace Christ we must first let go of the fleshy Jesus.

Concerning Adam and Christ, the apostle Paul observes: "So it is written: 'The first man Adam became a living being'; the last Adam (Christ), a life-giving spirit." (1 Corinthians 15:45 NIV)

Adam is a passive receptor of life and his offspring passively receive a corrupting mortal nature. Christ is an active giver of life and his posterity actively receive a regenerating eternal spirit.
 

darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
41,035
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RR1 Distopia 666 Discordia
Concerning Adam and Christ, the apostle Paul observes: "So it is written: 'The first man Adam became a living being'; the last Adam (Christ), a life-giving spirit." (1 Corinthians 15:45 NIV)

Adam is a passive receptor of life and his offspring passively receive a corrupting mortal nature. Christ is an active giver of life and his posterity actively receive a regenerating eternal spirit.

Any reverence for material {matter}is reverence of a false idol.
 

Motar

Council Member
Jun 18, 2013
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Is it true that Jesus was inclusive? If so, in what sense was Jesus inclusive? Were there limits to Jesus’ inclusiveness?

Another example of Jesus' inclusiveness:

"Jesus entered Jericho and was passing through. A man was there by the name of Zacchaeus; he was a chief tax collector and was wealthy. He wanted to see who Jesus was, but because he was short he could not see over the crowd. So he ran ahead and climbed a sycamore-fig tree to see him, since Jesus was coming that way. When Jesus reached the spot, he looked up and said to him, 'Zacchaeus, come down immediately. I must stay at your house today.' So he came down at once and welcomed him gladly.

All the people saw this and began to mutter, 'He has gone to be the guest of a sinner.' But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, 'Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount.' Jesus said to him, 'Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham.For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost." (Luke 19:1-10 NIV)

Zacchaeus was despised by his Roman occupiers and socially excluded by his Jewish countrymen. Collaboration and extortion did not endear him to anyone. Knowing this, Jesus offered to be Zacchaeus' house guest. In doing so, Jesus publically confirmed one of the most marginalized non-members of that society. In response, Zacchaeus publically and enthusiastically validated Jesus.
 

Cliffy

Standing Member
Nov 19, 2008
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Nakusp, BC
 

Motar

Council Member
Jun 18, 2013
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Is it true that Jesus was inclusive? If so, in what sense was Jesus inclusive? Were there limits to Jesus’ inclusiveness?

Two more excluded people included by Jesus:

"While Jesus was in Bethany in the home of Simon the Leper, a woman came to him with an alabaster jar of very expensive perfume, which she poured on his head as he was reclining at the table. When the disciples saw this, they were indignant. 'Why this waste?' they asked. 'This perfume could have been sold at a high price and the money given to the poor.' Aware of this, Jesus said to them, 'Why are you bothering this woman? She has done a beautiful thing to me. The poor you will always have with you,but you will not always have me. When she poured this perfume on my body, she did it to prepare me for burial. Truly I tell you, wherever this gospel is preached throughout the world, what she has done will also be told, in memory of her." (Matthew 26:6-13 NIV)

Simon had the ignominious designation of "the Leper". The woman is not even identified by name here. Yet Jesus lodged with him and publically commended and immortalized her.
 
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darkbeaver

the universe is electric
Jan 26, 2006
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Chapter XV

NOXIOUS FUMES AND LURID FLARES

Milton’s lakes of seething fire in Paradise Lost are a travesty of truth, unless taken purely as the symbology they are. For Satan is the god himself--on earth! This broad assertion is incontestable. It is proven by the very name. The descending god was the Light-bringer, Lucifer, the bright and morning star, which is precisely the character assumed by the Jesus of the Biblical Revelation! The Christian devil, the hated serpent of evil, Satan, is Lucifer, the god of light on earth, Prometheus, the "benefactor of mankind,"--"the god" himself.

Indoctrinated orthodoxy may rise to protest the identification. Some ghastly mistake will be alleged in the philology. It will be in vain. Erudite theology has at times perhaps known the truth, but has kept an advised silence. The general mind has lost the key to the mystery. By dropping the name Lucifer and clinging to that of Satan alone, the mischief has been bred and perpetuated. That Satan and Jesus are identical is as true as that Sut and Horus in Egypt are twins! The god and devil are kindred. They are full brothers. Their mother is one. They are the two aspects or manifestations of the same force. It may be said that the evil character is the good seen in reversed reflec-

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tion on earth. For an ancient esoteric adage in Latin ran: DEMON EST DEUS INVERSUS, "the devil is the god turned upside down." Satan is the god in incarnation; or he is the god as he appears after his nature has been diffracted in its passage through the blurred medium of earth life. The devil is the god transformed into a being of reduced power, blunted moral sense, befogged intellect and forgotten glory. He is the god bemired with the slime of carnal generation, beset with the strong sensuous and sexual urge of the brute. In short, he is the divine soul entangled in the bestial nature and himself lending more fiery intensity to the impulses of the body by his vitalizing presence!

The genesis of what is called "evil" may perhaps be dialectically derivable from the fundamental premises of thought. But the origin of evil in reference to man’s specific cosmic situation is a particular problem, only to be determined by full knowledge of this situation. As the world does not possess such knowledge in full measure, the great problem is enveloped in some obscurity.

But the sages of the early dawn vouchsafed a portion of this knowledge deemed sufficient to yield to reflection an intelligent comprehension of the issues involved and a philosophic attitude toward them. The rank of the gods sent to earth, their endowments and capabilities, their attitude toward their mission, their obligation in relation to past dereliction, and the implications of their tenanting the animal bodies assigned to them, were broadly revealed to the initiates and theodidaktoi of an early period. With all these interests and relations the connotations of the term "evil" are intimately concatenated. This knowledge, elaborated to much detail, was the treasure of the Mystery Societies and Brotherhoods, and formed the esoteric motivation of their regimes of discipline, instruction and consecration. The modern revival of interest in this mine of truth has not yet recovered all that has slipped away. The uncertainty about some of the major premises is supplemented by the additional difficulty of determining which of the two phases of the representative figures, Satan, Lucifer, Apap, Sut, Typhon, the serpent, the dragon, the beast, is being emphasized in the numberless myths and legends. And there is the ever-present doubleness of the meaning of the symbols, making it difficult to know whether the higher or the lower aspect is meant. But enough hints are provided usually to enable scholarship to work with intelligence upon the material.

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The origin of evil is indeed the mystery of our life. It is inwrought with the key situation of humanity. The arising of evil in a system of total and absolute good is indeed a riddle that taxes the best effort of brain and heart. The difficulty, however, has been made by the mistaken common assumption that Good is absolute, that is, good as conceived in human ideation, good in its specific human relevance. The Supreme God has been called the Good, and this has been misleading. Good can only be absolute if evil is also absolute, and this can not be, since there can not be two different and opposing absolutes. The absolute is beyond good and evil alike. There is an abstract and detached conception of good which the mind can predicate of the entire scheme of things, to posit which, however, would require our saying that that which is beyond both good and evil is the good. Yet such a declaration is dialectically impossible, because that which we would characterize as good is beyond all character. Descriptive statements about it are empty sound. It is not within the scope of any predication whatever. The ultimate is neutral to us always.

ab khun lost light
 

Motar

Council Member
Jun 18, 2013
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Two more excluded people included by Jesus:

"While Jesus was in Bethany in the home of Simon the Leper, a woman came to him with an alabaster jar of very expensive perfume, which she poured on his head as he was reclining at the table. When the disciples saw this, they were indignant. 'Why this waste?' they asked. 'This perfume could have been sold at a high price and the money given to the poor.' Aware of this, Jesus said to them, 'Why are you bothering this woman? She has done a beautiful thing to me. The poor you will always have with you,but you will not always have me. When she poured this perfume on my body, she did it to prepare me for burial. Truly I tell you, wherever this gospel is preached throughout the world, what she has done will also be told, in memory of her." (Matthew 26:6-13 NIV)

Simon had the ignominious designation of "the Leper". The woman is not even identified by name here. Yet Jesus lodged with him and publically commended and immortalized her.

The woman is Mary of Bethany, sister of Lazarus and Martha (John 12:1-8 NIV). And true to Jesus' word, her name and deed are remembered here today.

Is it true that Jesus was inclusive? If so, in what sense was Jesus inclusive? Were there limits to Jesus’ inclusiveness?

A woman excluded from Jewish social life due to a chronic health problem approached Jesus:

"And a woman was there who had been subject to bleeding for twelve years,but no one could heal her. She came up behind him and touched the edge of his cloak, and immediately her bleeding stopped. 'Who touched me?' Jesus asked. When they all denied it, Peter said, 'Master, the people are crowding and pressing against you.' But Jesus said, 'Someone touched me; I know that power has gone out from me.' Then the woman, seeing that she could not go unnoticed, came trembling and fell at his feet. In the presence of all the people, she told why she had touched him and how she had been instantly healed. Then he said to her, 'Daughter, your faith has healed you. Go in peace." (Luke 8:43-48 NIV)

An ancient Hebrew health law misapplied kept this woman tethered to her home for 12 years. Jesus' reputation for mercy, healing and inclusion drew her out into a public place to meet him. In an instant, her spiritual, physical and social life were restored.
 

Harikrish

Electoral Member
Sep 2, 2014
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Accept, DB.
Open this link: http://www.biblegateway.com/ Type the word "accept" into the search box and choose a Bible version. In the NLT, I found 178 hits for this word.

By God's design acceptance is a cooperative effort:

"But to all who believed him and accepted him, he gave the right to become children of God." (John 1:12 NLT)

"In every nation he accepts those who fear him and do what is right." (Acts 10:35 NLT)

"God knows people’s hearts, and he confirmed that he accepts Gentiles by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as he did to us." (Acts 15:8 NIV)

Please read your Acts 15: again. That was Paul reaching out to the Gentiles. Those are not the words of Jesus.

Here is what Jesus said to his disciples. There is nothing inclusive in his message. Jesus only preached to the Jews and mainly around Galilee and Judah.


Matthew 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: "Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans.
 

Motar

Council Member
Jun 18, 2013
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Please read your Acts 15: again. That was Paul reaching out to the Gentiles. Those are not the words of Jesus. Here is what Jesus said to his disciples. There is nothing inclusive in his message. Jesus only preached to the Jews and mainly around Galilee and Judah. Matthew 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: "Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans.

Please read your Bible again, HK. It has one Author with numerous hand-selected scribes recording His message. Grace and peace.
 

Harikrish

Electoral Member
Sep 2, 2014
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Please read your Bible again, HK. It has one Author with numerous hand-selected scribes recording His message. Grace and peace.

But Acts 15 is not a recording of Jesus's message. The Book of Acts was written by Luke and in Acts 15 he is talking about Paul not Jesus. Jesus was already dead and had very little to do with Acts 15.
 

Motar

Council Member
Jun 18, 2013
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But Acts 15 is not a recording of Jesus's message. The Book of Acts was written by Luke and in Acts 15 he is talking about Paul not Jesus. Jesus was already dead and had very little to do with Acts 15.

You seem to be hung up on the scribes, HK.

In my work environment, healthcare providers utilize medical scribes to document their assessments, etc. on patient records. Providers speak and scribes record. Ultimately, it is the provider's signature on the health record. The thoughts are those of the provider. The provider is responsible for the patient care.

In the same way, Luke and Paul and the rest of the Bible writers are scribes. The thoughts they record are those of the Provider : )
 

Ludlow

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 7, 2014
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wherever i sit down my ars
A few years ago I offered my services, "finish carpentry", to Habitat for Humanity, a Christian organization that builds homes for people who otherwise would not be able to afford a home. I guess that's how it goes. At any rate I considered that a good thing so I wanted to donate some time to help. I went to the orientation meeting and filled out the form, which included a question about what religion you belonged to. As I am not a Christian I wrote down "believer". Never got a call. In my life I've not really experienced any inclusiveness in that religion. But I'm sure there are others who have.
 

Motar

Council Member
Jun 18, 2013
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A few years ago I offered my services, "finish carpentry", to Habitat for Humanity, a Christian organization that builds homes for people who otherwise would not be able to afford a home. I guess that's how it goes. At any rate I considered that a good thing so I wanted to donate some time to help. I went to the orientation meeting and filled out the form, which included a question about what religion you belonged to. As I am not a Christian I wrote down "believer". Never got a call. In my life I've not really experienced any inclusiveness in that religion. But I'm sure there are others who have.

Your observation that religion is exclusive is a valid one, Ll.
 

Harikrish

Electoral Member
Sep 2, 2014
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You seem to be hung up on the scribes, HK.

In my work environment, healthcare providers utilize medical scribes to document their assessments, etc. on patient records. Providers speak and scribes record. Ultimately, it is the provider's signature on the health record. The thoughts are those of the provider. The provider is responsible for the patient care.

In the same way, Luke and Paul and the rest of the Bible writers are scribes. The thoughts they record are those of the Provider : )

Jesus did not write his own memoirs so everything written about him is hearsay. There are differences between the Synoptic Gospels and the Gospel of John. There are even bigger differences between Paul's accounts and the other disciples. Anything that cannot be corroborated by all the eyewitnesses should be suspect.