Chavez ... Human Rights Violator ... and Liar

peapod

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 26, 2004
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pumpkin pie bungalow
Why don't you pass the same advice onto your lil chimp leader. If anyone should keep their mouth shut its him. OMG! OMG! have you heard the nonsense that comes out of his mouth, for feck sakes he read storybooks upside down. 8O 8O

Pastaman,
Let me take this moment to say sorry for biting your head off, I gots my crabby days, hang around, you will get use to podifer.

Sidenote: Thats just for pastaman or women, not you nascar, I am gonna stick to you like a fly on sticky paper :wink: ta ta, for now :twisted:
 

Canucklehead

Moderator
Apr 6, 2005
797
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RE: Chavez ... Human Righ

George has the audacity to speak for the people of the U.S. after his iffy re-election... oh..yes.. he was accepted as being democratically elected and thus it's ok to speak for the nation as a whole... kinda like Chavez down under...except for the razor thin win aspect of course.
 

Ocean Breeze

Hall of Fame Member
Jun 5, 2005
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Reverend Blair said:
George has the audacity to speak

I think using the word "speak" is being a bit too generous, Canuclehead. It's more like the nonsensical rantings of a lunatic.

ramblings.......comes to mind.. ( ramble is what "lunatics" do..) :wink:

Notice that he is getting even more incoherent now??? His most recent ..outputs has been clearly dysfunctional. Pathos
 

Ted

Nominee Member
May 12, 2005
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Anyone that has spent any time in Latin America knows that missionary groups, while usually well intentioned are often manipulated by political interests, often without the knowledge of volunteers on the ground. There was a program called the Summer Linguistic Institute, that was nothing more than an instrument to further US interests. Sure, schools were built, the Bible was translated into indigenous languages, but there is another side to the story. The region is predominantly Catholic, and the result of the missionary work and the conversion of Catholics to Protestant religions has seriously divided communities that were once organized around the church. Don't take my word for it just because I have seen it with my own eyes. Do some research. I am not surprised that Chavez is speaking out.

I am tired of hearing the BS propaganda against Chavez. He was elected twice. Every day I read the papers from several countries in the region, and I have worked with Venezuelans on both sides of the issue, and I am convinced that Chavez is doing his best to represent the poor majority that until now has never reaped any benefits from the oil industry previously controlled by the Venezuelan Oilogarchy and American interests.

For a time, Latin America elected right wing governments, but the tide is turning. Bolivia is set to elect an indigenous president, and if that happens, you can expect to hear negative press about him. Mexico also seems set to throw Fox's PAN party out on their butts and elect Manuel Lopez Obrador from the PRD party, unless he is murdered like the last presidential candidate that was incompatible with global interests in 1994 (Luis Donaldo Colosio).

I shake my head when people that know nothing about the complex political realities in other countries regurgitates absurd propaganda they heard some talking head saying on Fox News. :roll:
 

Durgan

Durgan
Oct 19, 2005
248
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www.durgan.org
Ted said:
Anyone that has spent any time in Latin America knows that missionary groups, while usually well intentioned are often manipulated by political interests, often without the knowledge of volunteers on the ground. There was a program called the Summer Linguistic Institute, that was nothing more than an instrument to further US interests. Sure, schools were built, the Bible was translated into indigenous languages, but there is another side to the story. The region is predominantly Catholic, and the result of the missionary work and the conversion of Catholics to Protestant religions has seriously divided communities that were once organized around the church. Don't take my word for it just because I have seen it with my own eyes. Do some research. I am not surprised that Chavez is speaking out.

I am tired of hearing the BS propaganda against Chavez. He was elected twice. Every day I read the papers from several countries in the region, and I have worked with Venezuelans on both sides of the issue, and I am convinced that Chavez is doing his best to represent the poor majority that until now has never reaped any benefits from the oil industry previously controlled by the Venezuelan Oilogarchy and American interests.

For a time, Latin America elected right wing governments, but the tide is turning. Bolivia is set to elect an indigenous president, and if that happens, you can expect to hear negative press about him. Mexico also seems set to throw Fox's PAN party out on their butts and elect Manuel Lopez Obrador from the PRD party, unless he is murdered like the last presidential candidate that was incompatible with global interests in 1994 (Luis Donaldo Colosio).

I shake my head when people that know nothing about the complex political realities in other countries regurgitates absurd propaganda they heard some talking head saying on Fox News. :roll:

Perfect. Absolutely perfect. Educating the masses is an uphill battle. Most believe the bullshit produced in the media, swallowing it lock, stock and barrel, without reservations.

Almost every South American country needs a total upheavel to distribute more of the abundant wealth more equitably. There are far too many poor in often lands of plenty. Too few own and control all the wealth.

Packing missionaries onto the nearest boat for home, should have been done years ago. Actually a feast of them cooked in a large iron pot might be more appropiate, preferably with plenty of salt and a little ketchup. To use a trite comment good intentions pave the way to hell.

Durgan.
 

Jay

Executive Branch Member
Jan 7, 2005
8,366
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An interesting article...

http://www.econlib.org/library/Columns/y2005/Martinezpetro.html

"Petro-states apparently cannot cope with oil booms without running into almost unrepayable debt and without undermining democracy in the end. Such seems to be the curse of the petro-state: "you shall never attain economic diversification and your people will grow poorer and angrier at you with each passing day." Since the Arab oil embargo in the 1970s, the number of Venezuela's poor has climbed to almost 65% of a population of 22 million. Today, most Venezuelans agree that it was the harvest of inequality, frustration and political unrest, generated by the oil booms of the mid-1970s and 80s that made possible Lt. Col Chávez's ascent to power in 1998.

The irony of it all is that, according to a well-respected research group at the Universidad Católica "Andrés Bello" led by Luis Pedro España, an expert on the study of poverty, after seven years of the longest oil-boom in Venezuelan history, with OPEC crude prices reaching unprecedented peaks, there are 2 million more Venezuelans living below the poverty line than in 1998 and, with 117 billion more dollars having passed through the hands of the Venezuelan state, there are almost twice as many government ministries than there were seven years ago. "
 

Reverend Blair

Council Member
Apr 3, 2004
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RE: Chavez ... Human Righ

You are forgetting that the Chave's opposition, backed by US interests, did all they could to destroy the Venezuelan economy, Jay.
 

I think not

Hall of Fame Member
Apr 12, 2005
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The Evil Empire
Maybe this might help:

"How interesting! Just a few months after Venezuela's official statistics institute reported that poverty had increased by 11 percent since President Hugo Chávez took office in 1999, the same institution is now reporting -- after a public scolding by the president -- that poverty has suddenly plummeted to pre-1999 levels."

A miracle! Venezuela's poverty has suddenly fallen

I think shipping cheap oil to the Bronx might have something to do with it.
 

Reverend Blair

Council Member
Apr 3, 2004
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Winnipeg
RE: Chavez ... Human Righ

Of course it couldn't be that they recovered from the illegal strike that was backed by the oil companies and the CIA.
 

Jay

Executive Branch Member
Jan 7, 2005
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"''This is very suspicious,'' says Luis Pedro España, an economist who heads a poverty studies project at Venezuela's Andrés Bello Catholic University. ``If they had indeed reduced extreme poverty by more than half in a few months, it would be a world record.''

España says that's not likely to be the case. He added that not even Chávez's massive social programs would help explain the dramatic reduction in extreme poverty, because they are most often concentrated in big cities, while the poorest of the poor tend to live in remote rural areas."


Luis Pedro España seems to be a brave man....I wonder how long he has left.
 

Reverend Blair

Council Member
Apr 3, 2004
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The Chavez presidency is so far marked by four distinct phases. The first phase was 1999, which was a period of severe economic recession, constitutional reform, and natural disaster,[16] in which little was done about reducing poverty, other than the initiation of Plan Bolivar 2000. The second phase, 2000-2001 was a relatively successful period, in which the Chavez government consolidated its political power and began implementing its long and medium term poverty reduction programs, of macro-economic reform, urban and rural land reform, the creation of Bolivarian schools, and support for micro-credits and cooperatives. The third phase, from about December 2001 to May 2003, was the most difficult phase, in which the government had to cope with several employer-led general strikes, a coup attempt, and the shut-down of the country’s all-important oil industry. During this phase the country and the government suffered its greatest setbacks in terms of reducing poverty. There is little doubt that as unemployment and inflation increased, poverty also increased. Also, few resources or attention were available for actively implementing poverty reduction programs.
Read the whole thing

This seven-quarter period of uninterrupted growth follows a period of two years of economic decline, which most economists attribute to the political and economic chaos caused by the April 2002 coup attempt and the late 2002 to early 2003 shutdown of the country’s all-important oil industry. The economy declined by 8.9% in 2002 and by 7.7% in 2003, relative to the respective previous years.
Seven quarters of growth

The significant reduction in poverty is due to a combination of 17% economic growth during 2004, and the economic policies pursued by the government of socialist President Hugo Chavez. On October 18, the government presented a 2006 budget of US$40.5 billion, 27% higher than the previous year, with 41% committed to social programs. Public spending has more than tripled since Chavez was elected in 1998.
17% economic growth and the benefits are going to the poor.

Give it up, ITN and Jay. Ted is the second poster on this board with personal experience of Venezuela who has told you that things are better under Chavez. You post opinion columns by his political adversaries and think we should accept them as fact.

I do have a question though. Why is it that you two have a sudden interest in Venezuela and Chavez? You showed no inclination towards this before, which may explain why you know so little about the situation. Why the interest now though?
 

I think not

Hall of Fame Member
Apr 12, 2005
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The Evil Empire
I read all those reports already, the entire articles. Think you can pick something a little less biased? It's like me posting something from the Pentagon on the Iraq war.

My personal interest is to figure out what all the talk is about. Why certain people object to him and why others support him. Whatever the biases involved the end credible result are economic figures, and they are not in his favor, in terms of foreign investment, inflation and yes even poverty.

Doesn't it strike you as odd that his own government agency would change the statistics by switching methodology, a methodology I might add that is used all over the world?

Further, his entire economic base is dependant on oil exports, what's going to happen if the oil plummets? He has made no strives to expand any economic base whatsoever other than oil.

Now I have sifted through alot of old statistics (that I could find), from 1990 to 1998, there was a huge increase in poverty in Venezuela, it dipped a bit after Chavez came to power and then went up again.

The more I research, the more I see that his economic policies are doing more harm than good, which leads me to believe that he is nothing more than a populist, screaming "it's their fault!"

I'm continuing the research though. I'm open to anything.
 

Jay

Executive Branch Member
Jan 7, 2005
8,366
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You give it up Rev.


I show interest because I find in right incredible that the left supports this guy. If we don't say anything then anyone who reads this stuff will think everything is OK in La La land and it isn't.

The topic of this thread is "Chavez ... Human Rights Violator ... and Liar" and that is the case, but according to you he is some Messiah. He is a military leader, responsible for a failed bloody coup, he is causing an uproar internationally and aligning himself with Cuba, Zimbabwe and Iran....it is obvious the guy is loony tunes.

Now, if Chaves doesn't want to be discussed in open forums, he should slink away and not be an ass, but that isn’t what leftist instigators and agitators do. I think this guy is dangerous, a threat worse than Castro, and is just getting started.
 

Jay

Executive Branch Member
Jan 7, 2005
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http://www.vcrisis.com/index.php?content=letters/200509130354

"As a response to the attacks from neo-liberalism and capitalism, we are now going to use the mechanisms of workers," Marcela Máspero, coordinator of pro-government National Workers' Union (UNT), recently said."We seize the plant first, and then try to solve the issue of ownership, as there is always a reason for takeover," she said, according to El Universal.

Fedecamaras, Venezuela's main business federation, denounced the expropriations.

"These actions constitute a clear violation of the fundamental rights of man, as stated by the United Nations, as well as the rights to property, economic liberty, the defense and due process of private enterprise, guaranteed in the Venezuelan constitution," the business group said in a statement last week. "They also negatively affect employment and the income of hundreds of families and small agricultural producers."

The recent expropriations came after the government seized a 32,000-acre ranch owned by British food producer Vestey Group in January. Vestey disputes that its ranch was idle and is fighting to get it back.

The action against Vestey has had a negative effect on how British investors view Venezuela, according to Ian Stein, executive director of the Venezuelan-British Chamber of Commerce in Caracas.
 

Reverend Blair

Council Member
Apr 3, 2004
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If you read the reports, ITN, then you know that they are just as or more valid as the crap that Jay has been posting.

You'd also know, if you stopped to consider it even for a second, that it takes time for education to reduce poverty. It is the most effective way of reducing poverty though. Only George Bush and other idiot adherents to Leave Every Poor Child Behind program would argue that. If you had that first report, you'd understand that Chavez is concentrating on education.

The biggest thing you are missing though is that poor people are doing better now even though they remain poor. They have access to education and health care. They have roads and little things like running water slowly being introduced. They have hope of getting a job or being able to farm. They didn't have that before and the people you would put back in power would take it away from them.

What you so purposely ignore is the attempts, which the US government has been complicit in, to destroy the Venezuelan economy. If somebody waged that kind of economic warfare on the US, or even threatened to, you'd invade them.

What really pisses you guys off is that Chavez is shown your little doctrine of greed being good to be a failure and a lie though. That pisses you off to no end.
 

Ted

Nominee Member
May 12, 2005
54
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Vancouver
Yeah, Chavez is a threat - to big oil interests. He is a threat to the interests that are pushing for an American trading block and the erosion of nationalism and sovereignty. Chavez called Mexico's Vicente Fox "America's puppy". But the reasons for that comment were left out of the news here.

You see, free trade wasn't even on the agenda. Bush wanted to ignore the agenda (development and sustainability issues) and impose free trade onto the agenda. He got Fox and the Panamanian president to motion for the change to the agenda and this infuriated the other presidents. Chavez' comments were made in response to this, and apparently, leaders from other countries in the region agreed with his assessment.

Back in Mexico, Fox was incensed and claimed that it was an insult to all Mexicans. He withdrew his ambassador from Caracas. I saw him on CNN and he was spitting bile. Another thing that wasn't reported was that rallies were held in Mexico in support of Chavez' comments and against Fox, who is increasingly seen by his own people as the modern day Porfirio Diaz - the dictator that sold the northern territories to the US for an amount that wouldn't even buy a condo on the beach today.

Don't get bogged down in statistics. You can make them say whatever you like. The best way to get a sense of what is really going on is to talk to people that actually live there. I don't defend Chavez out of ideological affinity. I am neither left or right. I do believe that when a country elects a president and then ratifies him by national referendum, this means he is the legitimate president, whether people outside the country agree or not. Chavez' main opponent is a man that stole two elections and lies to his own people. If you choose to believe Bushspeak over the facts, then that is your perrogative. I prefer to sit in the middle and inform myself before taking sides. In the end, it is the business of Venezuelans, and the rest of us should just let them be.