Chavez ... Human Rights Violator ... and Liar

[Ocean Breeze]

.... that except for your hatred of anybody who dares to criticise your government and your apparent need to change the subject when the actions of your government cause them to be thrashed on a public forum.

This is blatantly not true.

jay.........are we on the same forum??? :roll:

 

[Jay]

Neither one of you knows what the word "hatred" means.

From my personal experience, ITN is not a hater, but quite the opposite.


I have heard him say things about his own country that shows he has a well balanced/centrist view point.

If he was a hater, I wouldn’t bother with him on a personal level.

How did Bill Clinton put it...."the politics of personal destruction" ya, that’s it....

 

[Reverend Blair]

http://www.alternet.org/story/16255/

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0816-03.htm

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0817-01.htm

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/09/19/1336214

http://www.gregpalast.com/printerfriendly.cfm?artid=184

http://www.counterpunch.org/wilpert09232003.html

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/03/04/1554235

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20050411/parenti

http://www.counterpunch.org/kozloff10142005.html

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1064

I can play link wars, Jay. I generally don't bother because you guys never read them anyway, but what the feck?

 

[Jay]

You can play what ever wars you want Rev, but I'm responding to a question asked very nicely by Pastafarian.

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: Chavez ... Human Righ

But you are doing so without looking at the whole story, Jay. The US media has continually played up anti-Chavez stories without investigating them and often spinning them even further than they were already spun, meanwhile they refuse to look at the real situation or the alternative they are promoting.

 

[pastafarian]

Ok, Jay, I read your links. the second one is an op-ed piece that is full of innuendo and hearsy except for the one bit of fact: the prosecution of the human rights lawyer Ayala. The other is an extension of the same idea: that charges are being brought against opponents of the Chavez regime in order to stifle dissent. I agree that these represent abuses of power.

So, if we admit that there is wrong on both sides, the next question to ask is :"how much wrong? "

You can't seriously be trying to compare the unprovoked attack of a sovereign country by another, or the use of chemical weapons, torture , arrest without trial and incarceration without charges of civilians, rendering of its own citizens for torture abroad, influence peddling, intimidation of the media, falsification of intelligence and plunder of an entire country to a few unjust trials, can you?

Is your sense of morality so skewed by ideology that you can call the violations of the Chavez government more worthy of condemnation than those of the US?

AND, Chavez is restoring hope to thousands of disenfranchised people who will now be able to contribute economically to their country and feed their children. they'll be educated and have access to healthcare and infrastructure. What has the US done FOR anybody in the last ten years?

You have traded your objectivity for the sake of your myopic and narrow-minded views, pastafarian, not to mention any ethics you may have had.

My objectivity is intact. Ethics are, alas, based on assumptions. You show mw yours and I'll show you mine. Mine adhere pretty closely to The Sermon on the Mount. Yours?

Deductive reasoning is a fallacy

I have no idea what this means. Do you? What about inductive reasoning? Syllogism? If you meant to say something like "Reason doesn't work.", then I believe at last I know why it is you defend things that make no sense, and I thank you for your candour.

...Only to replace it with his own regime. And not even close to invading, agreed there. Your point?

My point is he improved the quality of life for the vast majority of Cubans at great personal risk, whereas the monsters that he is compared to and virtually all those that the US have supported have diminished the quality of life of their citizens to there own material gain.

The rest of your post follows socialist rhetoric, that those on society's bottom rungs will be the ones who most firmly uphold its codes and values. The only problem is, that hypocrisy guides your views and thought.

The first sentence is true, but for for logical reasons. Since you have admitted you don't use reasoning to arrive at conclusions, I'll say no more but give a hint to anyone reading this who might use reason to arrive at their opinions. It is no mystery that Margaret Thatcher has said "Society is a myth", and that the parasites who sit on global capital see collectivism as an evil, while the powerless have always used solidarity and strength of community to fight evil.
The interactions between individuals who wish to build a strong cohesive society are, by necessity, governed by a clear moral code. those who can reason will be able to see why this is so.

I think not, show me an example of my "hypocrisy", I won't be offended.
But I just think it's a case of you throwing words around: talking out your ass.

 

[Ocean Breeze]

Ok, Jay, I read your links. the second one is an op-ed piece that is full of innuendo and hearsy except for the one bit of fact: the prosecution of the human rights lawyer Ayala. The other is an extension of the same idea: that charges are being brought against opponents of the Chavez regime in order to stifle dissent. I agree that these represent abuses of power.

So, if we admit that there is wrong on both sides, the next question to ask is :"how much wrong? "

You can't seriously be trying to compare the unprovoked attack of a sovereign country by another, or the use of chemical weapons, torture , arrest without trial and incarceration without charges of civilians, rendering of its own citizens for torture abroad, influence peddling, intimidation of the media, falsification of intelligence and plunder of an entire country to a few unjust trials, can you?

Is your sense of morality so skewed by ideology that you can call the violations of the Chavez government more worthy of condemnation than those of the US?

AND, Chavez is restoring hope to thousands of disenfranchised people who will now be able to contribute economically to their country and feed their children. they'll be educated and have access to healthcare and infrastructure. What has the US done FOR anybody in the last ten years?

You have traded your objectivity for the sake of your myopic and narrow-minded views, pastafarian, not to mention any ethics you may have had.

My objectivity is intact. Ethics are, alas, based on assumptions. You show mw yours and I'll show you mine. Mine adhere pretty closely to The Sermon on the Mount. Yours?

Deductive reasoning is a fallacy

I have no idea what this means. Do you? What about inductive reasoning? Syllogism? If you meant to say something like "Reason doesn't work.", then I believe at last I know why it is you defend things that make no sense, and I thank you for your candour.

...Only to replace it with his own regime. And not even close to invading, agreed there. Your point?

My point is he improved the quality of life for the vast majority of Cubans at great personal risk, whereas the monsters that he is compared to and virtually all those that the US have supported have diminished the quality of life of their citizens to there own material gain.

The rest of your post follows socialist rhetoric, that those on society's bottom rungs will be the ones who most firmly uphold its codes and values. The only problem is, that hypocrisy guides your views and thought.

The first sentence is true, but for for logical reasons. Since you have admitted you don't use reasoning to arrive at conclusions, I'll say no more but give a hint to anyone reading this who might use reason to arrive at their opinions. It is no mystery that Margaret Thatcher has said "Society is a myth", and that the parasites who sit on global capital see collectivism as an evil, while the powerless have always used solidarity and strength of community to fight evil.
The interactions between individuals who wish to build a strong cohesive society are, by necessity, governed by a clear moral code. those who can reason will be able to see why this is so.

I think not, show me an example of my "hypocrisy", I won't be offended.
But I just think it's a case of you throwing words around: talking out your ass.

pasta , you is a credit to this forum. Bravo.!! A voice of reason........added to many other voices of reason on here.

 

[pastafarian]

Oh, OB, stop.. ...well, maybe a bit more

 

[Reverend Blair]

One voice in the anti-Chavez chorus has a familiar ring to his voice. Former President Carlos Andres Perez gives TV and newspaper interviews as an authority on democracy and good government. Convicted of embezzlement and having given the command for army troops to fire at his own people, this mass murderer somehow claims to occupy moral high ground. And the media accepts him as if the Venezuela conflict boils down to questions of procedure, not real democracy: majority rule.

http://counterpunch.org/landau07022004.html

The problem is especially serious in the countryside, where peasants face growing violent attacks by paramilitaries tied to landowners who are trying to quell the growing movement of rural poor to reclaim land. Since 2001, 138 peasants have been murdered, but hardly any of the perpetrators have been caught and tried. There have been two assassination attempts of peasant leaders in recent weeks. Braulio Alvarez, leader of the Ezequiel Zamora National Agrarian Cooperative Coordinating Committee (Canez) and a National Assembly deputy, almost lost his life after being shot twice on June 24, while VHeadline reported on July 3 that shortly after, Canz activist Jose Gregorio Rivas was shot three times.

Znet

10 Myths and Realities
About President Hugo Chavez and the Venezuelan Government

http://www.mltoday.com/Pages/Venezuela/10 Myths.html

 

[peapod]

get lost ocean...its my turn :twisted:

"You have traded your objectivity for the sake of your myopic and narrow-minded views, pastafarian, not to mention any ethics you may have had."

You gots to be kidding me, you cannot hold a candle to this guy jay.

 

[Ocean Breeze]

get lost ocean...its my turn :twisted:

"You have traded your objectivity for the sake of your myopic and narrow-minded views, pastafarian, not to mention any ethics you may have had."

You gots to be kidding me, you cannot hold a candle to this guy jay.

ok.......peapod........ you are on!! DRUM ROLL!! :wink:

 

[Jay]

Ok, Jay, I read your links. the second one is an op-ed piece that is full of innuendo and hearsy except for the one bit of fact: the prosecution of the human rights lawyer Ayala. The other is an extension of the same idea: that charges are being brought against opponents of the Chavez regime in order to stifle dissent. I agree that these represent abuses of power.

So, if we admit that there is wrong on both sides, the next question to ask is :"how much wrong? "

You can't seriously be trying to compare the unprovoked attack of a sovereign country by another, or the use of chemical weapons, torture , arrest without trial and incarceration without charges of civilians, rendering of its own citizens for torture abroad, influence peddling, intimidation of the media, falsification of intelligence and plunder of an entire country to a few unjust trials, can you?

Is your sense of morality so skewed by ideology that you can call the violations of the Chavez government more worthy of condemnation than those of the US?

AND, Chavez is restoring hope to thousands of disenfranchised people who will now be able to contribute economically to their country and feed their children. they'll be educated and have access to healthcare and infrastructure. What has the US done FOR anybody in the last ten years?

Thanks for the kind response. I’m glad we can both "agree that these represent abuses of power".

I think that is the point of this threat. So my case is laid to rest.

I can't imagine we agree on the Bush's administration on the war on terror and Iraq, and what it all means. I'm not trying to compare Chaves to Bush necessarily, but I think the development of human rights is, by any stretch of the imagination, far better in the US than in most countries around the world. I think Chavez is instigating trouble in the region, and allies himself with people like Castro. I think Chavez is very dangerous, and has the potential of being more dangerous than Castro.

I tend to defend American and Western interests and ideals. I'm not a socialist....you see where my biases are.

 

[Jay]

get lost ocean...its my turn :twisted:

"You have traded your objectivity for the sake of your myopic and narrow-minded views, pastafarian, not to mention any ethics you may have had."

You gots to be kidding me, you cannot hold a candle to this guy jay.

What are you talking about, Pea?

 

[Reverend Blair]

I think Chavez is instigating trouble in the region, and allies himself with people like Castro. I think Chavez is very dangerous, and has the potential of being more dangerous than Castro

You haven't been reading the links, Jay.

2. MYTH: Chavez is destabilizing South America and the Caribbean.

REALITY:
• Venezuela has joined in many cooperative relationships in South America and the Caribbean. Following the examples of nineteenth-century Latin American liberators Simón Bolívar and José Martí, Chavez has promoted an all-inclusive Latin American “great homeland” (“patria grande”).

• A few examples of this include Venezuela’s incorporation into Merco Sur; assistance in the creation of a South American television station TeleSur and oil enterprise PetroSur; and the building of a pipeline with Colombia, whose narco-traffickers, paramilitaries, and leftist guerrillas it seeks to prevent from crossing the border into Venezuela.

• Petrocaribe is a new Venezuelan proposal through which 14 Caribbean counties will receive oil at preferential prices, and currently Venezuela has an oil-for-food accord with Argentina.

5. MYTH: Chavez is propping up the Cuban economy and government.

REALITY:
• First, the Cuban economy relies mostly on tourism and is not in need of “propping up” despite nearly half a century of US economic blockade. Second, Cuba and Venezuela have entered in to various agreements, including ALBA (Bolivarian Alternative to the FTAA, based on reducing poverty rather than raising profits) and the Caracas Accord through which 23 Latin American countries receive preferential oil prices.

• For Cuba’s part, it has been the key player in Venezuela’s two most successful social programs: Barrio Adentro (BA) and Mission Robinson (MR). Tens of thousands of Cuban doctors are serving in community medical clinics throughout the country (BA). The MR literacy campaign used the U.N.-lauded Cuban program “Yo Sí Puedo,” as Cuba trained Venezuelan teachers and provided televisions, VCR’s, workbooks, pencils and even personal library sets to all those attaining a 6th-grade reading level. In the first year of MR more than a million Venezuelans became literate. Cuba also has sent thousands of sports instructors to Venezuela and has treated many Venezuelans with special medical needs in hospitals in Cuba. The US is increasingly isolated in its condemnation of Fidel Castro and the Cuban Revolution.

6. MYTH: Chavez is a communist and is centralizing power.

REALITY:
• According to the Webster dictionary Chavez falls into the category of a populist: “a believer of the rights, wisdom, or virtues of the common people.”

• Contrary to communist theory, the Chavez government has handed out millions of private land ownership titles.

• And instead of taking over the means of production, the government has begun entering into comanagement relationships with workers who have taken over control of their factories.

• The current program of developing endogenous development communities that are self sufficient and locally governed are a profound expression of true decentralization of power to the local level.

 

[I think not]

The entire point of Galloway's speech was to point out what our government is doing and the implications of that, ITN. Most Canadians are not aware of that. I don't know why you have such a problem understanding that except for your hatred of anybody who dares to criticise your government and your apparent need to change the subject when the actions of your government cause them to be thrashed on a public forum.

Try to find Galloway's speech instead of a link to single tight-leaning news source though. It might clear your foggy head.

He wasn't criticising the US, he was criticising Canadians in that article, but you of course support him for his rhetoric and nothing more. What's tightly-leaned about it? You find the source, do something constructive for a change.

In those 3000 posts you have screamed that we were just being anti-American time after time. You've been singing the same tune since you got here.

Not ALL, just you and the sheepel that follow the course.

 

[I think not]

This is blatantly not true.

Oh? Go read his posts. The second anybody questions the right of America to do whatever it wants he starts crying about anti-Americanism. He doesn't do the same when somebody complains about Britain or Canada or Spain though. He never screams about anti-Canadianism or Brit bashing or strong anti-Spanish sentiment.

You must have brown eyes. And sure I did, I did it with Galloway when he slammed Canadians and not the government of Canada. And what am I supposed to do run to every countrys defense?

 

[I think not]

.... that except for your hatred of anybody who dares to criticise your government and your apparent need to change the subject when the actions of your government cause them to be thrashed on a public forum.

This is blatantly not true.

jay.........are we on the same forum??? :roll:

Apparently not. :roll:

 

[I think not]

Re: RE: Chavez ... Human Rights Violator ... and Liar

Neither one of you knows what the word "hatred" means.

From my personal experience, ITN is not a hater, but quite the opposite.


I have heard him say things about his own country that shows he has a well balanced/centrist view point.

If he was a hater, I wouldn’t bother with him on a personal level.

How did Bill Clinton put it...."the politics of personal destruction" ya, that’s it....

Thanks Jay.

 

[peapod]

ok.......peapod........ you are on!! DRUM ROLL!!

ehm...sorry about dat ocean I gots side tracked, I just had 4 firemen checking out my sprinkler system :lol: :lol: :lol: ...whoa! and they were hot! 8) Natch, at first I was a lil testy, and they of course asked whats bugging you lil pea, and natch I told them about this here thread, and they said well lil pea go tell them to go .....themselves 8O Course I know these boys, they like checking out my sprinkler system...coz I always give them a hard time... :wink:

 

[Jay]

Re: RE: Chavez ... Human Rights Violator ... and Liar

Neither one of you knows what the word "hatred" means.

From my personal experience, ITN is not a hater, but quite the opposite.


I have heard him say things about his own country that shows he has a well balanced/centrist view point.

If he was a hater, I wouldn’t bother with him on a personal level.

How did Bill Clinton put it...."the politics of personal destruction" ya, that’s it....

Thanks Jay.

The pleasure will always be mine.