Chavez ... Human Rights Violator ... and Liar

[Jay]

Chavez is building himself to be the next Castro.

 

[Reverend Blair]

From ITN's link.

The United States has also proposed cutting wording on poverty reduction, including on overseas development aid, education and debt relief, and removing the term “Millennium Development Goals” — the internationally agreed upon targets for halving world poverty. In addition, the United States wants to cut references to small arms controls from the outcome document.

Now do ya Hugo might be objecting to the United States meddling in this?

 

[I think not]

From ITN's link.

The United States has also proposed cutting wording on poverty reduction, including on overseas development aid, education and debt relief, and removing the term “Millennium Development Goals” — the internationally agreed upon targets for halving world poverty. In addition, the United States wants to cut references to small arms controls from the outcome document.

Now do ya Hugo might be objecting to the United States meddling in this?

The US isn't "meddling", it's still a part of the UN, Bush is supporting his corporate interests, this isn't anything new, and that's not my point anyway. I acknowledge Bush is far worse than Chavez, but where do you draw the line? And can you even draw a line?

From the same link, I found it "odd" that:

"Countries trying to block this include India, Egypt, Algeria, Pakistan, Venezuela, Cuba, Iran, Syria and Russia."

All of them having serious Humans Rights violations. Maybe you can take a step back and wonder why?

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: Chavez ... Human Righ

And some of them are best buds of the US. Others aren't best buds, but the US has sent people there to be tortured.

Chavez has spoken at great length about the undue influence that the US has over the UN, especially American attempts to use the reform process (initiated by Kofi Annan, not the United States) to gain even more control over the UN.

The real danger in what the US is doing is that Chavez will be forced to close ranks and, in effect, be pushed into being all of the bad things that the Bush regime (and the Americans on this site) accuse him of.

The reality, a reality that the US government and its supporters refuse to acknowledge, is that if a foreign country played the kind of games in the US that the US has played in Venezuela, it would start a war. There would be mass arrests if somebody tried to overthrow the White House through force. There would be mass arrests if a foreign government tried to diddle one of your elections. There would be mass arrests if a foreign country colluded to shut down your oil industry. When the arrests were over, you would attack the country responsible.

Chavez has been comparitively reasonable, but you insist on pushing. You have tried to remove him from power both with a coup and by trying to buy an election, tried to to isolate him from his neighbours, tried to destroy the Venezuelan economy, and tried to discredit him. You have failed because when push comes to shove Chavez has done something that all your plans have failed to do, both domestically and in foreign countries. He has made things better for the majority of the Venezuelan people.

Chavez's Bolivarian Revolution is spreading. Success breeds success, after all. That scares the hell out of the US because you've been pushing neo-conservative/neo-liberal policies around the world for a quarter of a century and all you've accomplished is to further deprive the poorest of the poor while making the rich even richer. Chavez is demonstrating that your policies have failed and that scares your leaders to death.

 

[Jay]

Chavez is demonstrating he wants to replace Castro...another one of those "revolutions" that worked out so well. He would do well to cut the rhetoric and settle down for awhile.

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: Chavez ... Human Righ

You obviously know nothing about the Bolivarian Revolution, Jay. You should at least make an attempt to learn about it.

As for the rhetoric that Chavez uses...the US government has failed to depose him largely because of his use of rhetoric. It is why the Venezuelan people reinstated him after the CIA-backed coup and why they re-elected him after the US-sponsored recall election. It is why he has such a huge approval rating.

 

[I think not]

Re: RE: Chavez ... Human Righ

And some of them are best buds of the US. Others aren't best buds, but the US has sent people there to be tortured.

And Chavez feels it's necessary to align himself with other countries that violate human rights that the US is complicit, to get back at the US by avoiding international treaties at the expense of his people.

And this makes sense in your head? Is it because he screams "socialism" you try and make excuses?

The spin overwhelms the substance.

 

[Reverend Blair]

RE: Chavez ... Human Righ

Your spin is an attempt to be overwhelming, ITN.

I support Chavez because he has been making things better in Venezuela. His particular form of socialism is democratic socialism...a form that encourages both elections and capitalism. What it rejects is capitalism that is allowed to cause harm.

If you look at his land reforms, that becomes evident. He has taken unused land, paid fair market value for it, and given it to people without land. He has taken factories that have been mothballed, paid fair market value for them, and returned them to production.

He has not taken away productive land or working factories from their owners.

You need to learn a little more, ITN. I'd highly suggest reading something beyond the crap that gets published in your mainstream press and the bulshit that spews from the mouths of George Bush and (skank for me) Condi Rice.

 

[pastafarian]

So far, the Venezuelan president has been the only leader on the world stage to state the obvious, that Bush and his maniacal group of liars, carpet-baggers, and war criminals are savaging the planet and putting millions at risk.

That doesn't mean that Chavez hates the American people; far from it. Following the vast devastation of Hurricane Katrina Chavez responded more quickly than FEMA, offering to send cheap fuel, humanitarian aid and relief workers to the disaster area. He offered to provide $1 million of free petroleum via the state run Petroleos de Venezuela and its subsidiary CITGO for the relief effort.

According to civil rights leader, Jesse Jackson, Chavez also offered two mobile hospital units, 120 rescue and first aid experts, and 50 tons of food; considerably more than "Brownie" was able to produce.

"We have drinking water, food, and we can provide fuel," Chavez told reporters

None of this was, of course, was reported in the American media which consistently lambastes Chavez as a "radical leftist".

Whenever the tired ideology of Americans --who've traded their little brains for patriotism-- peters out and sputters ineffectually like their current chimp-in-residence, they try to bring out their coup-de-grace: the bogeyman (he-who-shall-not-be-named) Fidel Castroooh! 8O.

Keeping an eye out for examples of Godwin's Law has its merits: people from all ideologies love to compare people to Hitler, since he is a useful personification of Evil for all but the Bush clan and David Duke. His crimes are staggering in scope and depravity.

Are castro's crimes equivalent? Hmmmm. Let's see:

He rescued a country from the grip of gangsters and a brutal autoritarian regime. Not quite invading Czechoslovakia and Poland, is it?

He nationilized industries, appropriated land and private assets (mostly the spoils of crime) and engaged in a programme of redistribution and collectivisation. OK. Shows little respect for the sanctity of private property. Disagrees with the "trickle down theory". Serious, but hardly the death camps.

In response to attacks against his country and attempts to destabilize his government by terror groups like the CIA and their local proxies, he imprisons, exiles and kills some of his enemies. Heavy-handed? Yes. Brutal? Perhaps. Yet, Castro's response is far more restrained than what the US unleashed on Guatemala, El Salvador, Vietnam, Iran, Iraq, Panama, Yugoslavia...

Chavez isn't even in Castro's league, let alone Bush or Cheney's as far as human rights violations go. Why don't Americans get their allies to clean up their acts? Israel, Turkey, Uzbekistan and Russia, for example.

The lying chimp and his lackeys can say "We don't torture." and "We support freedom" 'til the cows come home (which Martin is making sooner rather than later). Fact is, the US couldn't care less about napalmed children and tortured civillians. Chavez (and Castro) are bogeymen to the American Establishment for one reason:

The self-proclaimed socialist, Chavez, is seen as a serious threat to expanding capital markets in the southern hemisphere and, therefore, ripe for regime change. This explains the hostile language the media uses in describing the ebullient and charismatic Chavez.

Chavez succeeded in using Katrina to blast away at the callousness and cynicism of the Bush administration saying, "Before the hurricane, they knew Katrina was coming and refused to evacuate people. In Cuba, when they know a hurricane is coming, chickens, hens, and people are all evacuated. A hurricane recently destroyed many towns in Cuba but not a single person died because no one was there. The government prepared its people and took them to shelters, whereas here they left the poor, without protection, especially the blacks. That's horrible!"

"The government had no evacuation plan. The world's only superpower is so involved in Iraq ...but left its own people adrift," Chavez said on live TV. "And, that cowboy, the king of vacations, stayed at his ranch and said nothing but, 'You have to flee'. It's incredible."

They show how morally bankrupt the dominant political/economic ideology and its priesthood are.



Hugo Chavez vs. the King of Vacations

 

[I think not]

Re: RE: Chavez ... Human Righ

Your spin is an attempt to be overwhelming, ITN.

The only spin I see is turning this thread about Bush, again. This about Chavez, can you get past a post without mentioning Bush or US even once? Try it.

I support Chavez because he has been making things better in Venezuela. His particular form of socialism is democratic socialism...a form that encourages both elections and capitalism. What it rejects is capitalism that is allowed to cause harm.

If you look at his land reforms, that becomes evident. He has taken unused land, paid fair market value for it, and given it to people without land. He has taken factories that have been mothballed, paid fair market value for them, and returned them to production.

He has not taken away productive land or working factories from their owners.

And yet he refuses to sign a treaty that gives more rights to his people.

You need to learn a little more, ITN. I'd highly suggest reading something beyond the crap that gets published in your mainstream press and the bulshit that spews from the mouths of George Bush and (skank for me) Condi Rice.

The only place I ever post a link from regarding Chavez are international sources, and I'm open to read anything, have any links you find "credible"?

 

[peapod]

Excellent post pasta man, your growing on me pfffft...look at the two of you, foaming at the mouth over chavez, yet you have nothing to say about americans using white phosphorus on civilians.

In the belly of the mouse---OMG!OMG! that is to funny! :lol:

 

[Jay]

You don't want to hear what I have to say about WP, Pea. So I don't say it.

 

[peapod]

Like I said, you two foam at the mouth over chavez, yet nada..nope no comment at all about using chemical weapons on civilians.

 

[Reverend Blair]

And yet he refuses to sign a treaty that gives more rights to his people.

No, he wants changes to the treaty before he signs it. Same as the US.

The only spin I see is turning this thread about Bush, again. This about Chavez, can you get past a post without mentioning Bush or US even once?

Bush is deeply involved in this because of his own actions. I'll mention him whenever the feck I want. Why don't you try dropping the ridiculous "everybody is picking on the US" act.

The only place I ever post a link from regarding Chavez are international sources, and I'm open to read anything, have any links you find "credible"?

I have several links I find credible. Many of them have been presented here and I have no intention of reposting them. Go read through the many threads on Chavez and you'll find them.

Your attitude toward Chavez is nothing more than an echo of what's being presented by your government and in your mainstream press and you've gone in search of links that you feel support that. You have not looked at the overall picture or considered the history. You have not thought about the fact that if the US installs a regime it prefers, every indication is that human rights abuses will again increase; Venezuela's poor will lost access to medical care and education; and the country will become more politically unstable.

 

[Jay]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venezuelan_coup_attempt_of_1992

 

[peapod]

Yes and we all KNOW why chevez is such a thorn in their side...three letters OIL. All this foaming at mouth, and lies and smearing you do is for one reason only, to justify and rationalize the attempts your government will make to take chavez's life.

operation balboa
leaked internal Pentagon documents have identified Venezuela as a "post-Iraq threat" requiring "full spectrum" planning.


Wow! big surprise that is :roll:

 

[I think not]

This is what happens when you're on the phone, you fall behind in posts.

Whenever the tired ideology of Americans --who've traded their little brains for patriotism-- peters out and sputters ineffectually like their current chimp-in-residence, they try to bring out their coup-de-grace: the bogeyman (he-who-shall-not-be-named) Fidel Castroooh! 8O.

“The overbearing matter-of-factness which sacrifices the subject to the ascertainment of the truth, rejects at once truth and objectivity.” - Theodor Adorno
You have traded your objectivity for the sake of your myopic and narrow-minded views, pastafarian, not to mention any ethics you may have had.

Keeping an eye out for examples of Godwin's Law has its merits: people from all ideologies love to compare people to Hitler, since he is a useful personification of Evil for all but the Bush clan and David Duke. His crimes are staggering in scope and depravity

I have never seen anyone compare Castro to Hitler, but I have seen many compare Bush and David Duke. Not John Beattie, though, shhhh, we’ll keep that to ourselves.

Are castro's crimes equivalent? Hmmmm. Let's see:

Deductive reasoning is a fallacy. Get a new pitch.

He rescued a country from the grip of gangsters and a brutal autoritarian regime. Not quite invading Czechoslovakia and Poland, is it?

Only to replace it with his own regime. And not even close to invading, agreed there. Your point?

He nationilized industries, appropriated land and private assets (mostly the spoils of crime) and engaged in a programme of redistribution and collectivisation. OK. Shows little respect for the sanctity of private property. Disagrees with the "trickle down theory". Serious, but hardly the death camps.

Not in his country possibly, but his crimes from Peru to Ethiopia have a lot to say about your hero for the people.

In response to attacks against his country and attempts to destabilize his government by terror groups like the CIA and their local proxies, he imprisons, exiles and kills some of his enemies. Heavy-handed? Yes. Brutal? Perhaps. Yet, Castro's response is far more restrained than what the US unleashed on Guatemala, El Salvador, Vietnam, Iran, Iraq, Panama, Yugoslavia...

More deductive reasoning. I see you forgot to mention how he let Ethiopians starve to death because their ideology clashed with his own.

Chavez isn't even in Castro's league, let alone Bush or Cheney's as far as human rights violations go. Why don't Americans get their allies to clean up their acts? Israel, Turkey, Uzbekistan and Russia, for example.

I suppose for the same reasons Canada doesn’t. Although I agree Chavez is far far from Castro, that doesn’t make him a saint.

The rest of your post follows socialist rhetoric, that those on society's bottom rungs will be the ones who most firmly uphold its codes and values. The only problem is, that hypocrisy guides your views and thought.

 

[I think not]

Excellent post pasta man, your growing on me pfffft...look at the two of you, foaming at the mouth over chavez, yet you have nothing to say about americans using white phosphorus on civilians.

In the belly of the mouse---OMG!OMG! that is to funny! :lol:

Why bite?

 

[Ocean Breeze]

I suppose for the same reasons Canada doesn’t.

you gotta be kidding. :roll: the US following Canada ......??? Ya gotta dig a lot deeper for a sensible sounding excuse for US violations and conduct.

 

[peapod]

Brother :roll: :roll: thats it eh think?? why bite?? thats all you have to say about using the same chemical weapons your goverment accused saddam of using, but its okay when your government uses it on civilians. Why bite, indeed :roll: